Richie Richeson vs. Scott Frost

gbru

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I did not see that particular game, but I did watch Efren give Cliff 9-7 at the Chattanooga Billiard Club in 1993. Long story short... Efren made Cliff look like an idiot.

Now, Scott and Richie and smoke breaks...
The only reason I included that in my original post is because I have a hard time believing they would rather play in a nonsmoking room. Sure, it's better for the nonsmoking spectators and sweaters, but it wasn't supposed to be about them. It was supposed to be about Scott and Richie GAMBLING with each other.


Of course, from my understanding Cliff was not at the top of his game in '93 either....I think in the late 90's it would have been a much closer match...Like 8 to 7 and Efren would not have just sailed through it.
 

miscrewed89

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not doubting you Jay, but I cant imagine any game that Efren is better at than one-pocket.

I have seen videos of Ronnie Allen playing and I have seen Efren play many times and I would take Efren 100X over.

I think folks that would take Ronnie, are voting with their hearts instead of their heads.

Efren is by far the best I have ever seen.

ken

The problem with basing an opinion on those videos is the best stuff was not captured on video. These older guys who were there, sitting on the front row, inhaling the smoke from the cigarettes and cigars these players smoked, they have seen first hand what these guys could do! I never saw Ronnie play in person. If I had to form an opinion based on his videos and what I've seen in person, I would say Efren by far is/was the better player. But I wasn't there to see Ronnie. So honestly, I don't really know.

Today it seems everything is caught on video. From the 2 guys who can't play a lick but they're betting $300/game to champions matching up in hidden dive bars, it seems live streams and folks with their phones are capturing every great shot and money match! 15 years ago and back there was much more action off camera than on camera. Technology was way too bulky to be there to catch everything so much of what these guys did has become legend or folklore. Only those who were there can testify. That's difficult for this technology-dependent generation to comprehend.
 
Of course, from my understanding Cliff was not at the top of his game in '93 either....I think in the late 90's it would have been a much closer match...Like 8 to 7 and Efren would not have just sailed through it.

I could be remembering wrong but I think in the late 90's when Cliff was at his best Efren did give him 8-7.

ONB
 

thebark

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are probably over 100 people in the US alone that could beat the game played by either player in the 1989 match between DD and RA. That's how much the game has changed in25 years. Both players were only in their early fifties. Ask John Henderson (70's) or Jerry Matchin (60's) if they could beat the game displayed in 89. Video is more accurate than memory.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not doubting you Jay, but I cant imagine any game that Efren is better at than one-pocket.

I have seen videos of Ronnie Allen playing and I have seen Efren play many times and I would take Efren 100X over.

I think folks that would take Ronnie, are voting with their hearts instead of their heads.

Efren is by far the best I have ever seen.

ken

There is no video of Ronnie at his peak in the late 60's, 70's and early 80's. By 1985 his game had slipped a ball or so. The last time he played good was the match with Danny in 1988 and even then he was at maybe 80-85% of his top speed.

I don't vote with my heart when it comes to betting on pool games. There has been more than once that I opted out of a bet because I didn't like it. At least twice in the last two years I told Dennis I didn't want a piece of a game he had made.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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I could be remembering wrong but I think in the late 90's when Cliff was at his best Efren did give him 8-7.

ONB

In the early 2000's I believe Efren gave Cliff 9-7 at DCC, and I think he won. Maybe someone on here watched that game. I know they played a long time.

I will only add this fuel to the fire. Efren and Ronnie before him were the two most creative players I ever saw play One Pocket. And better yet they made their shots work! It's hard to pick a winner between them and in truth it could have gone either way. But if anyone thinks Ronnie didn't have the game to play Efren heads up they are sadly mistaken.
 
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CBuck

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the early 2000's I believe Efren gave Cliff 9-7 at DCC, and I think he won. Maybe someone on here watched that game. I know they played a long time.

I will only add this fuel to the fire. Efren and Ronnie before him were the two most creative players I ever saw play One Pocket. And better yet they made their shots work! It's hard to pick a winner between them and in truth it could have gone either way. But if anyone thinks Ronnie didn't have the game to play Efren heads up they are sadly mistaken.

It was Derby City 2004 Cliff got 9 to 7 & was beaten. It wasn't the 1st or last time he was beat with that spot. Cliff spotted Frost a ball at that time & also spotted him at DCC 2006 that i was at. Cliff won both times. The Cliff I saw then was better than Scott was then or now imo.
 
Not doubting you Jay, but I cant imagine any game that Efren is better at than one-pocket.

I have seen videos of Ronnie Allen playing and I have seen Efren play many times and I would take Efren 100X over.

I think folks that would take Ronnie, are voting with their hearts instead of their heads.

Efren is by far the best I have ever seen.

ken

The problem with basing an opinion on those videos is the best stuff was not captured on video. These older guys who were there, sitting on the front row, inhaling the smoke from the cigarettes and cigars these players smoked, they have seen first hand what these guys could do! I never saw Ronnie play in person. If I had to form an opinion based on his videos and what I've seen in person, I would say Efren by far is/was the better player. But I wasn't there to see Ronnie. So honestly, I don't really know.

Today it seems everything is caught on video. From the 2 guys who can't play a lick but they're betting $300/game to champions matching up in hidden dive bars, it seems live streams and folks with their phones are capturing every great shot and money match! 15 years ago and back there was much more action off camera than on camera. Technology was way too bulky to be there to catch everything so much of what these guys did has become legend or folklore. Only those who were there can testify. That's difficult for this technology-dependent generation to comprehend.

I don't think that anyone would ever accuse Arthur Bodendorfer of voting with his heart and not his head.

I didn't notice him mentioning Frost or DiLiberto.

Artie Bodendorfer said:
Number one we all no you change anything and everything changes. And the reason I picked those 3 games is because thats what the play at the DCC tournament. Banks One pocket and nineball. WE are not changing anything because that is the picture. And those are the games. If you want to change it to Snooker 3 cushion billiards and nineball. THier would be a different player. Harold Worst big time. But thats not what we are doing. And just because you grow up in that kind of inviorment that does not make you the best. And just because I was in lae vegas that does not mean I didnt no what was going on in pool. I seen Efren play in las vegas 4 or 5 times and I seen you play Efren at the crystal palace and you bet your own money. Or doesnt betting your own money afect a players game.Were he spoted you the 8 9 and the breack. And you were not playing your game. And it was not because of his good shooting. Because we no you can only win one game at a time giving you the breack. And Efren could not win just giving you the breack on a fast easy four and a half by nine were you could run 4 or 5 racks. And I think you played role out. Were shoot to hit the ball. Cue ball in hand he would have no chance beating you with the 8 and 9 and the breack. If you were in stroke. And played those rules but you didnt play cue ball in hand on a foul. And you always showed too much respect for his game instead of youre game. I think he hipmatised you. And as far as nine ball goes Buddy Hall was just as good and I liked the way Buddy Hall played better thats my opinion. And as far as the players going cross country the had very few good one pocket players. THe good players were gitting old and the young players like Gab Scott and Shannonwere kids. sO I would like to her from you who were those great players at that time that werent over the hill or young players just learning. The only ones I see are Cliff or maybe hopkins. But the field that I remember back then was very limited.THier wasant one great player in Chicago at that time was thier? But I would like to no who these great players were that he beat. It wasant Efrens faulte that the field was very week. And Ronnie Allen and BUgs spotted everyone the played to and a better class of players especialy in thier prime. And we make games according to what we see. Not after we play someone. And if we dont see someone play it is hard to handycap a game. We go by what we see thats how I make my games. You might do it by playing them. I make my games and handdy caps by what i see not playing them. What amazes me is that people no my stlye and how I played and dont no what I did. Efren is the one of the best at ececuting if not the best ever in life. And people think I play a squezze deffensive one pocket game. But that is not what I play. And I could have never beat those players playing only a squiezz defensive game. I ran lots of 8 and outs. And lots of players run 8 and out and cant telll you how the are going to run 8 and out. And I could not beat these players playing 3 and stop. I never played Efren and I never Played Ronnie. But I seen what the both did. And I like Ronnies game better then Efrens and Ronnie was more aggresive. And both players playing in thier prime Efren will make more mistakes. And I would have bet on Ronnie playing even both players in thier prime. And Efren shot worse percentage shots then Ronie. But Efren would execuite more of those shots then Ronnie. Because he had more skill and talant. But that those not make you win in the overall game. And Your stlye was perfect for Efren . Your Style played wright into what he liked. And different peoples style is good for one player. But no another. And when I seen you play Efren you did not play your game that you are capable of playing. And I hope you dont tell me you played your game. Because you will lose me and I am done with it. Ronnie and Bugs would have spotted all those players at that time too.And you have only played me one time. And you have only seen me play a few times. And you never seen me play anyone 5 or 6 games ahead. Were I could play y real game and not worry about someone quithing. And My win Percentage was 100% playing 5 and 6 games ahead. And you never seen none of those sessions. You were thier when I played Bugs once. And I dont even no if you watched the game. And you might have seen me play once in north shore. And Maybe once or 2 more. But you did not see me play once when I realy played a freeze out 5 or 6 games ahead. And Freddy never seen me play to much either. Because Freddy loved watching exciting one pocket games Like Ronnie Efren And Bugs. And Freddy didnt like watching me tourture people. Even though he new that was the real way to play to WIN. Winning is the name of the game. And betting your own money. Showes confedence and it showes you belive in yourself. And you can wright that down. Everyone has a hero. And I guess EFren is youres. But thats ok I liked a lot of players and if I would pick one it would be harold worst. And different players see different pictures. But very vew have answers and can explain it. And EFren is probable the best executionar in life. And thier will come some one thats better becuse the players keep gitting better and smarter. And when the new player steps in the old gets put aside. Everything is temparary. And if people dont understand what someone is doing when the are playing the will give thier opinion on what the see or think and that does not mean thats correct. And to realy be able to see whats going on. You have to get deeper into the game and analize it. I explain my shots and why. I dont her them other players explaining what the are doing or Why. Is it because the dont no what the are doing. Because when I ask the player to explain why the are doing what the are doing the look at me like am I crazy. And Efren was the pest player around in his time fram. NOt before and maybe not after. But he is great. And I understand to you he was the greatest and always will be. BUt remember everything changes. And you do have a good opinion and I respect that and you. But I do not think our opinions will change. And thats the way it is weather we excepte it or not. And its good that people have different opinions or it would be a duel boring world. Emagine if we all were the same and think the same. That would be brutel.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
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In the early 2000's I believe Efren gave Cliff 9-7 at DCC, and I think he won. Maybe someone on here watched that game. I know they played a long time.

I will only add this fuel to the fire. Efren and Ronnie before him were the two most creative players I ever saw play One Pocket. And better yet they made their shots work! It's hard to pick a winner between them and in truth it could have gone either way. But if anyone thinks Ronnie didn't have the game to play Efren heads up they are sadly mistaken.

I watched part of that game. I think it was only a ball and something like 9/8-8/7. I know they had one game which lasted several hours.

There was a lot of buzz about it. I think it was 2004. Someone commented that there was more people watching Cliff and Efren play than would watch the tournament. It was standing room only and they played in the main room on a table just along the first row of tables closest to the door.

The debate about Ronnie/Efren reminds me of when Buddy barbecued Efren in a 10 ahead set at Reds after Efren had taken out Sigel and many other top pros heads up. Buddy told me once on a drive that he had told Bustamante, Parica and Efren that all three of them could play for 10k each if they made a game where all three of them would play him one after the other. He said none of their backers ever stepped up to make that game. Whether or not they could beat Buddy I think all of them knew that for the chips playing Buddy was at best a coin flip.

To me the only thing that maybe gives Efren the edge in one pocket against Ronnie would have been Efren's carom knowledge. But back in the 60s and out in California it's not inconceivable that Ronnie Allen had a fair bit of carom knowledge as well.

Players can be quite surprising with what they know. One time I was trying to win a cheap carom cue and you had to run three points and i kept dogging it. Shawn Putnam says to me that he has played a lot of three cushion and I say go win me a cue. He goes over and runs 5 or 6 first try.
 

overlord

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The thing that makes Efren so deadly is he dead serious about his craft. I have never seen him in a tough match ever touch a drop of alcohol. My understanding of Ronnie Allen is his game was destroyed by drinking too much.
 

1 Pocket Ghost

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
12-13 years ago Richie wanted 8-7 from Cliff and Cliff said no. Now he's going to take 8-7 from a guy who plays better now than Cliff did then (wrist fractures in bridge hand aside) and Richie is 12-13 years older?

ONB


With all due respect...not true - that was their usual game back then....back at that time I watched Cliff give Richie 8-7 at the U.S. Open One Pocket in Kalamazoo, and also at Grady's Legends of O.P. in South Carolina in 2002.

On another note...it's always laughable/disingenuous in the extreme to me, when guys give an opinion on who was the better One Pocket player between two players - and one of the two players they have never seen play....such as when many people give an opinion on how good Ronnie or Artie were, but have never seen them play in their prime - what a joke. As for comparing Ronnie to Efren as to who played better, or if it would be a pick-it..one of the few people qualified to have a solid/valid opinion on that, would be John Henderson - he's seen them both play at their peak, many, many times.

- Ghost
 
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CueNut40

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Go ahead and think RR is old and in bad shape. I watched while drunk and a probably high with a smoke hanging from his lips rattle off 50 push up. He probably could have done more. Take RR over SF in a pushups contest for sure.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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It was Derby City 2004 Cliff got 9 to 7 & was beaten. It wasn't the 1st or last time he was beat with that spot. Cliff spotted Frost a ball at that time & also spotted him at DCC 2006 that i was at. Cliff won both times. The Cliff I saw then was better than Scott was then or now imo.

Thanks for the confirmation on this.
 

Bigtruck

Capt Diff Lock
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When Scott originally called out Richie to play this match, it was to be played at Buffalo's. Now, for some reason, they are playing at Lacy's where spectators will be charged $20/seat/day. Richie is a smoker. Lacy's is a nonsmoking establishment which means the match will be delayed several times a day for smoke breaks, stretching out this 8 ahead match for who knows how long! I'm assuming that if someone chooses to stand and watch that will be free but the bigger issue to me is how did this turn into an exhibition to profit Lacy's? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Lacy's. It just seems "someone" jumped in and meddled in this money match, stealing it from Buffalo's. It makes me wonder if the match will even be on the level and not just an exhibition to draw spectators to spend money!
I will more than likely still go and pay the $20 to sit down while I watch and even spend a few bucks on something to eat and drink, but it will still bother me how it turned into this...

Actually it was never gonna be at Buffalo's. Primarily because the match was never "ON", posted, until last week.

The primary reason it will be at Lacy's is because Buffalo didn't want a stream. Whatever his reasons are his own and I respect that.

The match gets money added from the stream and it's a fair amount.

Regarding Lacy's charging for VIP seat. They have one of the nicest rooms in the country. They are making some major accomodations for the players and the fans to be able to sweat this match in style. You will be able to see the match in comfort for free or you can pay a really low price for a seat.

VIP seats at the big Smokin Aces event are $100. for 3 days. and every seat is sold out. Many people also enjoyed the matches for free but were not guaranteed a seat.

Ray
 
With all due respect...not true - that was their usual game back then....back at that time I watched Cliff give Richie 8-7 at the U.S. Open One Pocket in Kalamazoo, and also at Grady's Legends of O.P. in South Carolina in 2002.

- Ghost

Maybe when I sat there and heard Cliff tell RR "no" it was just my imagination. I think Cliff knew his shoulder was becoming a problem at about this time. I do remember RR telling Cliff that RR had lost the last time they played.

ONB
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the early 2000's I believe Efren gave Cliff 9-7 at DCC, and I think he won. Maybe someone on here watched that game. I know they played a long time.

I will only add this fuel to the fire. Efren and Ronnie before him were the two most creative players I ever saw play One Pocket. And better yet they made their shots work! It's hard to pick a winner between them and in truth it could have gone either way. But if anyone thinks Ronnie didn't have the game to play Efren heads up they are sadly mistaken.

The one i saw there with Efren winning was a race to 8. 8-7-Efren won with one ball left on the table (pretty sure). Efren won with a 3-4 railer avoiding a collision with the CB mid table just before the Ob made it way to his pocket. This probably would have been the 4th or 5th year of the DCC
 

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How come Shane didn't enter the Smoking Aces 1p event?

Has Shane enter any of the smoking aces tourneys?
 
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