Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

[cleary]

Originally Posted by Cuebacca
I thought I was starting to understand but I went back to "confused" after seeing the video I'm not knocking your video. I don't even have a video, so obviously my video sucks. I appreciate your efforts and everyone's.

Before the video, what I thought was happening was that the bridge HAND stays fixed, but the cue rotates about some pivot point that is somewhere further from the cue ball than the bridge hand is. So, while the bridge HAND doesn't move sideways, the part of the shaft that is IN the bridge hand DOES move sideways.

Is that correct?

I thought the video was trying to demonstrate that, but I watched both videos several times; the pivot part of video 1 at least 20 times.

I saw the white dot moving, but I also tried staring at the blue dot labeled "bridge". I even stuck a piece of clear tape on my screen with a dot drawn on the tape. It looks like the dot labeled "bridge" doesn't move at all. I thought the bridge dot was supposed to move because it represents the point, within the bridge hand, that the shaft moves through.

Does the wording of my post make sense? If not, let me know and I will clarify. If the wording does make sense, can you correct where I went wrong in describing the system and/or where I went wrong in digesting the video? Does the blue dot move less than I am able to detect with my dot-on-clear-tape test?

I'm pretty happy with my "feel" aim, but I'm just curious to understand this.

Edit: At the risk of being captain obvious, this whole post is referring to Video 1, by the way, with the dot I drew on my screen overlapping the blue dot labeled "bridge".

I made a slight rewording to my post. The change is in red.

See, the whole bet was, "the bridge doesnt move" which is represented by the blue dot... "The bridge". It doesnt and shouldnt move. what should move is the white dot (the pivot point). The pivot point starts in the bridge and once you do your hip pivot, the pivot point moves backward with the cue due to the natural motion of moving your body.

See, if PJ would have went to the table AND TRIED THIS, he might have figured this out. But he didnt and it cost him $1000.

 

[dr_dave]

what about the head?

If you can watch those animations and not clearly see that the pivot point is moving (THE WHITE DOT ON THE CUE)... you will from now on be known as mr_dave.

I'm sorry my definition of "pivot point" is different than yours, but to me a "pivot point" is a fixed (i.e., stationary) point about which rotation occurs (as in the fulcrum of a lever). With the hip-pivot animation, the cue is sliding through the bridge as it is pivoting (i.e., rotating). The rotation part is the same whether or not the cue is sliding through the bridge or not while it is rotating. This is a similar argument to back-hand-English vs. swoop-during-the-stroke. The cue tip still ends up in the same place on the cue ball if the amount of rotation is the same, even though the sliding occurs at different times.

But none of this terminology is really that important. Everybody finally knows what everybody else is thinking (I think). That's what counts. The fixed bridge pivot point does not move whether you shift your hips or not.

Now, what I still don't know is: When you shift your hips, does your whole body and head go with the hips? As I wrote previously, this would explain how a different line of aim could be achieved based on what the shooter now sees as center-ball (which would be different from what the shooter would see as center-ball if the head were not moved). Spider-Dave has already replied that the head does not move during the hip pivot, but I want to know what other hip-pivot-people think. Hopefully, Stan and/or Ron can reply.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm sorry my definition of "pivot point" is different than yours, but to me a "pivot point" is a fixed (i.e., stationary) point about which rotation occurs (as in the fulcrum of a lever). With the hip-pivot animation, the cue is sliding through the bridge as it is pivoting (i.e., rotating). The rotation part is the same whether or not the cue is sliding through the bridge or not while it is rotating. This is a similar argument to back-hand-English vs. swoop-during-the-stroke. The cue tip still ends up in the same place on the cue ball if the amount of rotation is the same, even though the sliding occurs at different times.

But none of this terminology is really that important. Everybody finally knows what everybody else is thinking (I think). That's what counts. The fixed bridge pivot point does not move whether you shift your hips or not.

Now, what I still don't know is: When you shift your hips, does your whole body and head go with the hips? As I wrote previously, this would explain how a different line of aim could be achieved based on what the shooter now sees as center-ball (which would be different rom what the shooter would see as center-ball if the head were not moved). Spider-Dave has already replied that the head does not move during the hip pivot, but I want to know what other hip-pivot-people think. Hopefully, Stan and/or Ron can reply.

Regards,
Dave

Dr. Dave:

I mean this in the utmost respect. If I need to call in my astrophysicist friend from Villanova University to help you with your definitions, I'll parlay PJ's $1000 on the same bet. Pivot point is rotational...around the center of a circle....as if the cue were spinning on a needle, like a compass (this is PJ's definition as well... that's what made him think his GEOMETRY was infallible).

I know you're his shill in this matter, and it's totally cool. I'd do the same for a friend. I just hope you weren't telling him he had a lock on the side.

Dave

EDIT: You can answer a lot of your own questions if you just walk to a table and play with it... for a year... like I did.

 

[12squared]

OK, after reading most of the posts in this thread here's my take; it appears to me that by rotating your hips a new center is created due to a different view of the cueball after rotation. Thus creating a shallower angle. Am I close?

So I went back to the original post (well done by the way) and it shows that there is still a solid aiming line that is created after the rotation (whether it's back hand rotation or hip rotation, it's still a solid line) agreed? Again, this was the original post. So keeping whatever relationship with the cueball that rotating to "center" creates, my question is how does this continue to work from 2' to 6' or 7' away from the cueball? At some point I agree with some of the posters that say eventually it will miss the ball or hit the closer ones too thickly.

I know we have not seen all the adjustments so they may answer these questions, but everyone would have to admit by the original diagrams something has to give eventually. And I do want to understand this or I wouldn't be posting anything so please know this is for educational purposes only...and I'm not an engineer :thumbup:.

Thanks, Dave

Everyone has been hearing a lot about Ron V and his aiming system lately and he has been giving out a lot of free phone lessons, showing people how his system works. So I contacted Ron to see if he wanted to show the world, through video, just how his system works. So here it is.

First of all, Im not showing the whole system... only half of it. We filmed the whole thing, but I just havnt had the time to edit everything. So Im only showing what I have... because honestly, its the bread and butter of the system and will work with nearly any cut shot where the cue ball and object ball are at least two diamonds apart. (there is another part of the system for closer shots, which will be posted at a later date.)

So anyway, here is the first part. Its Ron V explaining who he is, how he learned it and the basics of the system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTos3K1swBw

And here are the first two shots. "90/90" & "Center/Center-Half Tip"
The biggest thing to keep in mind when using this system is "Pivot your body!". When you pivot, dont use back hand english, move your whole body. Its really just moving your hips.

In the video, I show a graphic, but because youtube compresses the videos so much, here are some pictures of the system graphics.

90/90 (pocketing without side spin/english)

If you break the ball up into 10% increments, you want to line your cue up so that you are aligning the last 10% of the cue ball and object ball... or as Ron V calls, 90/90.

To show you where the ball should go, I added a line of reference... although after some practice, you wont even need to look at the pocket.. you will just know.

Pivot your HIPS to the center of the cue ball. You should now be lined up to make the shot. If you pivot past center ball, dont try to fix it while your down, just get up and start over.

Center/Center-Half Tip (pocketing with sidespin/english)
Line up the cue ball and object ball through their centers

Pivot half a tip WITH YOUR HIPS. You should now be inline to pocket the ball.

here is the video with Ron V explaining these two parts of this system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKzXgMPQmXo

Thank you to Ron V, East Side Billiards Club in New York, NY. If you like what you see, be patient and Ill have the rest up for you when I can. I encourage you to go to East Side Billiards and take a lesson from RonV. He is a kicking and banking madman and can teach you SO MUCH. You can contact him at 917.656.7189

I hope I didnt screw anything from his system up and I hope you can learn a little of what he has to offer.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Disclaimer !

I hope this thread is over. I am tired of defending my original statement.
For those of you who choose to believe that all our past champions subscribed to "aiming systems" I can only say...good luck! I still maintain,
that anyone, who can draw their ball, thinks they can become a champion pool player by using the BS put forth here, I feel for you.
Take some lessons re; stance, bridge,stroke, etc. But don't be bamboozled into thinking there is a magic solution to making the game ball.
Trust me, it ain't gonna work very often.

Dick

 

[dr_dave]

the eyes have it

Dr. Dave:

I mean this in the utmost respect. If I need to call in my astrophysicist friend from Villanova University to help you with your definitions, I'll parlay PJ's $1000 on the same bet. Pivot point is rotational...around the center of a circle....as if the cue were spinning on a needle, like a compass (this is PJ's definition as well... that's what made him think his GEOMETRY was infallible).

I know you're his shill in this matter, and it's totally cool. I'd do the same for a friend. I just hope you weren't telling him he had a lock on the side.

Dave

Dave,

Don't bring your crap down on me. I was just stating how some people (including myself) interpret the terms "rotation" and "pivot point." Why can't you accept that some people's definitions might be different from yours? To me, all that matters is that people are clear and that other people understand what they mean. It seems like we are now at that point with the pivot thing. Amen to that!

BTW, I'm nobody's "shill." I have agreed with many of the posts from Patrick and Colin, both of whom I respect, but this has nothing to do with who they are. It has to do with what they wrote.

I still hope other people in the moving-pivot crowd will respond to my question. It seems like we are finally getting to the bottom of this whole topic. Here's my question again:

When you shift your hips, does your whole body and head rotate with the hips (or does the position and angle of the head and eyes remain perfectly stationary during the hip pivot)? As I wrote previously, if the eyes move at all during the pivot, this could explain how a different line of aim could be achieved based on what the shooter now sees as center-ball, which would be different from what the shooter would see as center-ball if the head were stationary. This could explain how CTE and other pivot systems really work. I'm trying to help you guys out here. Seriously.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Fair enough. I would call Ron. He's the head vampire with this system and he gives phone lessons for free.

I'm a bad teacher.

P.S. Sorry for being mean. My trigger-finger is spasming.

 

[Bigkahuna]

Can somebody call Patricks mom and check on him he may have passed out or something after that pivotal moment. I hope he is OK. We haven't heard from him in quite a while! Patrick where are you??????????

 

[12squared]

Dave,

Don't bring your crap down on me. I was just stating how some people (including myself) interpret the terms "rotation" and "pivot point." Why can't you accept that some people's definitions might be different from yours? To me, all that matters is that people are clear and that other people understand what they mean. It seems like we are now at that point with the pivot thing. Amen to that!

BTW, I'm nobody's "shill." I have agreed with many of the posts from Patrick and Colin, both of whom I respect, but this has nothing to do with who they are. It has to do with what they wrote.

I still hope other people in the moving-pivot crowd will respond to my question. It seems like we are finally getting to the bottom of this whole topic. Here's my question again:

When you shift your hips, does your whole body and head rotate with the hips (or does the position and angle of the head and eyes remain perfectly stationary during the hip pivot)? As I wrote previously, if the eyes move at all during the pivot, this could explain how a different line of aim could be achieved based on what the shooter now sees as center-ball, which would be different from what the shooter would see as center-ball if the head were stationary. This could explain how CTE and other pivot systems really work. I'm trying to help you guys out here. Seriously.

Regards,
Dave

My dearest "Shill",

I do believe Dave had said in an earlier post that his nose did rotate differently over the ball creating a new centerball view, which I believe, the annimation shows that the angle is a little more shallow allowing to hit the ball. Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks you for your questions.

Dave

P.S. Ijust notice there are too many Dave's to keep track of

 

[dr_dave]

Fair enough. I would call Ron. He's the head vampire with this system and he gives phone lessons for free.

I'm a bad teacher.

P.S. Sorry for being mean. My trigger-finger is spasming.

Dave,

Thank you for your peaceful response. I appreciate it. I do hope to call Ron soon.

Regards,
Dave

 

[crater59]

Are there any professional pool players who use this system? I mean if this system really works there are going to be a whole bunch of guys joining the pro ranks and never (or rarely ever) missing any shots. You know what that means, the BCA is going to have to re-write the rules for pool games. Why heck, the known pool games in existence (9 ball, straight, 1-pocket) will be so easy because noo-one will be missing anymore, we'll have to invent newer more difficult pool games that will challenge the new breed of Ron-V-System players. Come to think of it, pool rooms across the nation will have to up grade their now obsolete pool tables. Table mechanics will be summoned nationwide to triple shim all pockets on all tables due to the ease with which the Ron-V-System players can pocket balls on regular width pockets. Let us herald the day that Ron-V bestowed his system on poolplayers of the world, (for free no less). Alas, let this day be known as the day from which hereafter no pool shots were ever missed, (or came pretty close anyway). Hooray.

 

[Cuebacca]

See, the whole bet was, "the bridge doesnt move" which is represented by the blue dot... "The bridge". It doesnt and shouldnt move. what should move is the white dot (the pivot point). The pivot point starts in the bridge and once you do your hip pivot, the pivot point moves backward with the cue due to the natural motion of moving your body.

See, if PJ would have went to the table AND TRIED THIS, he might have figured this out. But he didnt and it cost him $1000.

So you're saying the blue dot in Video 1 doesn't move? And the cue shaft slides through the blue dot both pre-pivot and post-pivot?

I'm not trying to interfere with the bet, so I'd be happy to butt out of the thread entirely until it's settled if you want. I'm more interested in understanding the system and how it's represented in the video.

 

[SoundWaves]

Man, I go out with the wife for the afternoon. Dinner then a show, I come home and miss 14 freeken pages. Dang, I thought I was confused yesterday, today I'm confused and 14 pages behind.

SW<---missed the drama

 

[CueAndMe]

http://www.andrewcleary.com/PIVOT_SM.mov

Although I enjoyed it, I see a few problems with this animation. First, the distance between the balls is only about 18 ball lengths whereas Dave's 58" separation is about 26 ball lengths.

Second, if you'll notice, the animation does not pivot to the center of the ball, but stops short of it. Even though it pivots short of it, the path the cueball travels on is one that wouldn't happen in real life. It actually travels in the opposite direction of normal deflection. It deflects negatively.

Third, the white dot moves during the pivot, however, the shaft at the fixed blue dot(bridge) stays the stillest and is therefore the pivot point.

But very nice animation. You have a talent.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Man, I go out with the wife for the afternoon. Dinner then a show, I come home and miss 14 freeken pages. Dang, I thought I was confused yesterday, today I'm confused and 14 pages behind.

SW<---missed the drama

I guess we're waiting for PJ to come back. He's MIA. That's where you're picking up.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

See, the whole bet was, "the bridge doesnt move" which is represented by the blue dot... "The bridge". It doesnt and shouldnt move. what should move is the white dot (the pivot point). The pivot point starts in the bridge and once you do your hip pivot, the pivot point moves backward with the cue due to the natural motion of moving your body.

See, if PJ would have went to the table AND TRIED THIS, he might have figured this out. But he didnt and it cost him $1000.

Dr. Dave's too polite to tell you straight out, but this is nonsense.

Here's a rule of thumb: Pool is conceptually simple. So is aiming. If it can't be explained simply, there's probably something wrong with the explanation.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dr. Dave's too polite to tell you straight out, but this is nonsense.

Here's a rule of thumb: Pool is conceptually simple. So is aiming. If it can't be explained simply, there's probably something wrong with the explanation.

pj
chgo

Cashiers checks / money orders only, PJ

Since you didn't wanna meet-- we did what you asked, proved it online. Pay up nit.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Ex world class straight pool player, from PA originally, and now the tournament director at Danny K's here locally ( still runs a century in his senior years ) played Mosconi in some of his exhibition matches. Wayne also played in the world straight pool championship at the Stardust. Wayne idolized Willie. He even copied his stroke-slip at the last stroke.
Wayne swears Willie used the ghost ball method and so did the other world class players then.

I do not consider the "ghost ball" method of aiming to be a bad thing. It works in certain situations. (like making the game ball) But I doubt that any of our heroes gave it more than a passing thought when they were lining up to shoot, AND play position, on the next ball.

Dick

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Although I enjoyed it, I see a few problems with this animation. First, the distance between the balls is only about 18 ball lengths whereas Dave's 58" separation is about 26 ball lengths.

Second, if you'll notice, the animation does not pivot to the center of the ball, but stops short of it. Even though it pivots short of it, the path the cueball travels on is one that wouldn't happen in real life. It actually travels in the opposite direction of normal deflection. It deflects negatively.

Third, the white dot moves during the pivot, however, the shaft at the fixed blue dot(bridge) stays the stillest and is therefore the pivot point.

But very nice animation. You have a talent.

Well, bet's still on. You know the move now. You've seen the video. Do you want a piece of PJ's action? He might sell ya half.

 

[CueAndMe]

and here is an animation of what happens if you just pivot your arm.

Pretty much what dave did in his videos, only a graphical representation with reference points that make sense.

http://www.andrewcleary.com/PIVOT2_SM.mov

Hasn't anyone else realized that this is the same exact pivot, only taken all the way to center ball rather than stopping short? Bring both animations up in two windows, pause them, then scroll until you see. Also, the white dot has nothing to do with anything. It's just a random point on the shaft. And since it isn't at the bridge point in the first animation, it moves side to side with the rest of the shaft, just as any point other than the blue bridge point would.