Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

[cleary]

I'm sorry my definition of "pivot point" is different than yours, but to me a "pivot point" is a fixed (i.e., stationary) point about which rotation occurs (as in the fulcrum of a lever). With the hip-pivot animation, the cue is sliding through the bridge as it is pivoting (i.e., rotating). The rotation part is the same whether or not the cue is sliding through the bridge or not while it is rotating. This is a similar argument to back-hand-English vs. swoop-during-the-stroke. The cue tip still ends up in the same place on the cue ball if the amount of rotation is the same, even though the sliding occurs at different times.

Dave, Its not that we have different definitions of "pivot point", I think you just fail to understand that a pivot point can move/change.

As this simple animation shows, a bar is spinning on an axis. The axis is also moving. The cross hairs show the pivot point and it never leaves the cross hairs.

http://www.andrewcleary.com/moving_pivotpoint.mov

For everyone else, this animation means nothing, just showing a pivot point moving.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hasn't anyone else realized that this is the same exact pivot, only taken all the way to center ball rather than stopping short? Bring both animations up in two windows, pause them, then scroll until you see. Also, the white dot has nothing to do with anything. It's just a random point on the shaft. And since it isn't at the bridge point in the first animation, it moves side to side with the rest of the shaft, just as any point other than the blue bridge point would.

Are you trying to say PJ won the bet? I'll take your action too Bluey. It's a lot safer from the sidelines mr. referee.

 

[CueAndMe]

Well, bet's still on. You know the move now. You've seen the video. Do you want a piece of PJ's action? He might sell ya half.

There are a few reasons I wouldn't take action. First, I never take action because I don't like losing money, and I don't like taking money from others. Second, there are probably a bunch of ways you can cheat on this bet. Third, I play with a $150 cue. That's not to say it's a bad cue, it's just indicative of my financial situation.

And yes, in my mind, Patrick won the bet.

 

[cleary]

Hasn't anyone else realized that this is the same exact pivot, only taken all the way to center ball rather than stopping short? Bring both animations up in two windows, pause them, then scroll until you see. Also, the white dot has nothing to do with anything. It's just a random point on the shaft. And since it isn't at the bridge point in the first animation, it moves side to side with the rest of the shaft, just as any point other than the blue bridge point would.

Its not the same pivot. The whole point of the white dot is that is the beginning of the pivot point/bridge. In the first animation, it moves with the hip and shortens the bridge length. Honestly, its more of an optical illusion WHICH IS WHY ITS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

In the second animation, the bridge length does not change because its not forced by a hip pivot, therefor, you miss the ball.

The white dot has everything to do with it. Without the white dot, it would be the same as Dave's video because you would see nothing. The white dot proves that after the pivot, the bridge is shorter and therefor, you are able to not only hit the ball, but make it.

 

[CueAndMe]

Are you trying to say PJ won the bet? I'll take your action too Bluey. It's a lot safer from the sidelines mr. referee.

I don't know what's happened to you via this thread, but I don't know what's going on with you. You're in attack mode and can't seem to get out of it.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

There are a few reasons I wouldn't take action. First, I never take action because I don't like losing money, and I don't like taking money from others. Second, there are probably a bunch of ways you can cheat on this bet. Third, I play with a $150 cue. That's not to say it's a bad cue, it's just indicative of my financial situation.

And yes, in my mind, Patrick won the bet.

Bet your instinct. CHEAT???? Someone has crocodile tears. You can't cheat on that. I laid out the in-person logistics...chalk an outline around my bridge and pin down my fingers, preventing motion. Pivot point changes, CB doesn't miss the ball--- hit's the ball or goes in. Blue, you seem pretty respected around here. I know he's your friend. Tell your friend I want my money. He can't win in this universe - you probably don't know that. It's physically impossible for him to win. It's like making a bet on a football game that's a replay, follow me?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I don't know what's happened to you via this thread, but I don't know what's going on with you. You're in attack mode and can't seem to get out of it.

I'm someone who wants his "G" - I'm not Mr. SpiderWeb until I get it. You wanna get out of it - mind your business Blue-Boy unless you want a part of it.

 

[cleary]

Although I enjoyed it, I see a few problems with this animation. First, the distance between the balls is only about 18 ball lengths whereas Dave's 58" separation is about 26 ball lengths.

Second, if you'll notice, the animation does not pivot to the center of the ball, but stops short of it. Even though it pivots short of it, the path the cueball travels on is one that wouldn't happen in real life. It actually travels in the opposite direction of normal deflection. It deflects negatively.

Third, the white dot moves during the pivot, however, the shaft at the fixed blue dot(bridge) stays the stillest and is therefore the pivot point.

But very nice animation. You have a talent.

The point of the animation was to show HOW the pivot is made. I spent VERY little time on it so no, the green box and circles are not 'to scale'. It was only to show what happens with your cue when you body pivot.

But if you honestly want me to build a 'to scale' table and balls and show the body pivot.. im sure ill have some time this weekend.

But seriously, I should have to. I showed exactly what happends with your cue and how you can pivot from 90/90 to center and hit your target WITHOUT moving your bridge 1mm. So Dave wins the bet.

I really don't know why this is so hard for you "smart" people

 

[CueAndMe]

I'm someone who wants his "G" - I'm not Mr. SpiderWeb until I get it. You wanna get out of it - mind your business Blue-Boy unless you want a part of it.

I'll call Patrick my friend even though he's challenged my theories the same way he challenges yours. It's when we make no sense that he goes on the offensive. He's right most of the time. He's right this time.

What's with the name-calling? Blue-Boy really offends me. That's what the bullies in grade school used to call me. I just wanted them to call me by my real name, bluepepper, but they refused.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think it's time for the AZB staff to step in and either declare me the winner or force PJ to show up in a public place where there's lots of people and the money posted.

I showed the move, in animation and in video. It's a formality at this point. PJ--- be a MAN. You mouthed like a man earlier. You think I never stepped into one ever? Of course I have, lots of times. It's eating you up that you pushed me with the PM thing and then had it rammed up your shoot.

BE A MAN... THIS IS ONLY GONNA ESCALATE FROM HERE.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'll call Patrick my friend even though he's challenged my theories the same way he challenges yours. It's when we make no sense that he goes on the offensive. He's right most of the time. He's right this time.

What's with the name-calling? Blue-Boy really offends me. That's what the bullies in grade school used to call me. I just wanted them to call me by my real name, bluepepper, but they refused.

I guess we'll find out soon enough, Bluepepper. *wink* sorry I offended you by giving you a flashback. I'd sit on the sidelines for a while... or get pulled in.

EDIT: Have fun pondering the inevitable. I'm passing out.

 

[CueAndMe]

The point of the animation was to show HOW the pivot is made. I spent VERY little time on it so no, the green box and circles are not 'to scale'. It was only to show what happens with your cue when you body pivot.

But if you honestly want me to build a 'to scale' table and balls and show the body pivot.. im sure ill have some time this weekend.

But seriously, I should have to. I showed exactly what happends with your cue and how you can pivot from 90/90 to center and hit your target WITHOUT moving your bridge 1mm. So Dave wins the bet.

I really don't know why this is so hard for you "smart" people

Cleary and others who think Dave won this bet based on the animation, look at the animation more closely. It is not accurate. I don't want it redone, Cleary, I just want people to take a closer look at it. "Pivot point" is the one area of the cue where on opposite sides of it, the cue moves in opposite directions. In both of your animations, that point is the blue bridge box. The white box is a diversion that has no bearing on anything here. Draw the white box anywhere. It doesn't matter. The "pivot point" is the blue bridge, which is the only point of the cue in both animations that doesn't move.

Again everyone, look at the 2 animations side by side and stop them after the pivot. The tip in the first pivot doesn't reach a center ball position. It's easier to divert the cueball path through animation if it isn't as obvious as it would have been if the pivot went all the way to a center ball position. You would have noticed the error more easily. On pause, scroll the entire path of the cueball in the first animation and you'll see that it lowers onto the cueball "line" as the cueball approaches the object ball. The two animations, if done properly, would have shown that the cueball would have ended up along exactly the same path for both animations.

 

[eezbank]

I'll call Patrick my friend even though he's challenged my theories the same way he challenges yours. It's when we make no sense that he goes on the offensive. He's right most of the time. He's right this time.

What's with the name-calling? Blue-Boy really offends me. That's what the bullies in grade school used to call me. I just wanted them to call me by my real name, bluepepper, but they refused.

i respectfully disagree blue. the pivot point shown in clearys video couldn't be anymore clear. i don't know how you can defend this guy. he made a bet and unless he can bring something else to contest the animation i think he should stand up say he was wrong and pay.

 

[Cuebacca]

I really don't know why this is so hard for you "smart" people

Cleary or Spider, can one of you guys answer my post #332 or the really long version, #316? Again, if you're ignoring it due to wanting to settle the bet, just say so, but if you are willing to help us understand the system, I think the questions are fair, and I think #332 is pretty succinct.

Because if the "smart" people can't even understand, how can us nimrods ever hope to get it if you won't answer our questions.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Cleary or Spider, can one of you guys answer my post #332 or the really long version, #316? Again, if you're ignoring it due to wanting to settle the bet, just say so, but if you are willing to help us understand the system, I think the questions are fair, and I think #332 is pretty succinct.

Because if the "smart" people can't even understand, how can us nimrods ever hope to get it if you won't answer our questions.

Not my job to give lessons on the system. Call Ron for a free lesson. We're showing how we stayed within the parameters of the bet and changed the pivot point. Past my bedtime- will read up on this in the AM... see if sweater-nitter mans-up.

Dave

The smart people aren't as smart as you think.

 

[dr_dave]

My dearest "Shill",

Great ... now I'm "Mr. Dave the Shill." I still prefer "DAM Master Instructor," but "Dr. Dave" or just "Dave" is also fine.

I do believe Dave had said in an earlier post that his nose did rotate differently over the ball creating a new centerball view, which I believe, the annimation shows that the angle is a little more shallow allowing to hit the ball. Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it is clear that the head must move and/or rotate slightly for a hip-pivot to result in a different line-of-aim than with a back-hand pivot.

Regards,
Dave

 

[eze]

Ok, in hopes to clear up this whole pivot thing, I went ahead and made a little animation of what (I think happends) Sorry for the 8 bit graphics, I literally made it in like 7 min.

http://www.andrewcleary.com/PIVOT_SM.mov
sorry, its quicktime 7+... hope you have it!

Basically, it shows two balls and a cue lined up in 90/90. The blue square is your hand (bridge). There is a white reference spot on the cue. It is there to help illustrate what happends to you're cue as it pivots. Really, im saying that the pivot/anchor point is moving during the pivot. This happends because when you shift your weight (pivot with your hips), your cue slides slightly away from the cueball.

during the video, you will see the the white reference dot (which is also the anchor point) is at the bridge before the pivot. During the pivot, you will see the reference line move slightly back behind the bridge. Maybe two Inches or so. This is from the shift in body position. If you just move your back hand, the anchor point will stay the same and therefor, you will miss the ball. But by moving your hip, you are also bringing your cue slightly away from the cueball.

Hopefully this clears up the proper pivot point/bridge deal. Im not an expert, Im only creating what I believe logically happens.

First of all i want to say i use Ronv system.I have
figure out away to make it work for me.And it does.
IN your videos you doe not pivot two the center on
both videos.You fall short of center on one of them
and at a distance that makes alot of difference.What
im saying is i think if both pivots where to the middle
of the cb you would miss both times .
(look at your video realy close one is short of center).

 

[CueAndMe]

First of all i want to say i use Ronv system.I have
figure out away to make it work for me.And it does.
IN your videos you doe not pivot two the center on
both videos.You fall short of center on one of them
and at a distance that makes alot of difference.What
im saying is i think if both pivots where to the middle
of the cb you would miss both times .
(look at your video realy close one is short of center).

Thank you for noticing this eze.
For everyone else, here are the links again, so you can view them side by side:

http://www.andrewcleary.com/PIVOT_SM.mov

http://www.andrewcleary.com/PIVOT2_SM.mov

 

[Bob Jewett]

See, the whole bet was, "the bridge doesnt move" which is represented by the blue dot... "The bridge". It doesnt and shouldnt move. what should move is the white dot (the pivot point). The pivot point starts in the bridge and once you do your hip pivot, the pivot point moves backward with the cue due to the natural motion of moving your body.

See, if PJ would have went to the table AND TRIED THIS, he might have figured this out. But he didnt and it cost him $1000.

I find your definition of a pivot point different from the definition I've seen in all previous discussions of the subject. Maybe you haven't seen those previous discussions. I think Dr. Dave covered it, but here is my take:

At one time in setting up the shot, the stick is set along a particular line. Call that line 1. At a second time in setting up the shot (typically just before the final stroke is taken) the stick is along a different line, line 2. Those two lines meet in a point. That point is the pivot point in all the previous discussions.

You seem to have taken some other point -- the white point -- and claim that it is the pivot point even though it moves during the shot while the bridge doesn't move. Is that correct?

 

[dr_dave]

You say "pivot" ... I say "pivot"

Dave, Its not that we have different definitions of "pivot point", I think you just fail to understand that a pivot point can move/change.

Honestly, I don't think it matters what phrases we use as long as we are clear enough for everybody to know what we are talking about. I don't think this has been the case in much of this thread; although, things seem to be getting better. Because I teach robotics, mechanisms, and machine design in my day job, I like to use "pivot point" to refer to a stationary point about which rotation occurs. We have another name for a moving pivot, but its not worth getting into that here. I think the term "pivot point" is appropriate when referring to the fixed-bridge-pivot of a cue stick, but I also accept your usage of the term, which I now understand.

Regards,
Dave