Ronnie O'Sullivan--Greatest cue genius?
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the real bartram.
Its hard to translate talent from one game to another, but I think RS is as talented as Efren, but Efren has accomplished more in his career. Stephen Hendry has a better overall record than Ronnie, but obviously doesn't have the same kind of flashy game.
Blomdahl is as talented as anyone. Jaspers is a freak, but doesn't play pool/snooker anywhere near as well as Blomdahl. Blomdahl ended up owning Ceulemens, and can play at a very high level at many pool games.
Caudron could end up being ranked with the top players. He's absolutely phenomenal at 3-C, and all the small games like balkline. He just needs to collect a few more major billiard championships and he can compare his career to almost anyone in this era.
Ronnie playing like God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgxWd0djt5I
Blomdalh running 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tad9T79NJt8
Caudron playing 47/2: http://www.billiard-tours.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&lang=en
Click on link, go to on demand and play the longer video of the 47/2 match. If you want to feel like a clown with no talent, try playing carom games and compare yourself to Caudron.
Blomdahl is as talented as anyone. Jaspers is a freak, but doesn't play pool/snooker anywhere near as well as Blomdahl. Blomdahl ended up owning Ceulemens, and can play at a very high level at many pool games.
Caudron could end up being ranked with the top players. He's absolutely phenomenal at 3-C, and all the small games like balkline. He just needs to collect a few more major billiard championships and he can compare his career to almost anyone in this era.
Ronnie playing like God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgxWd0djt5I
Blomdalh running 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tad9T79NJt8
Caudron playing 47/2: http://www.billiard-tours.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&lang=en
Click on link, go to on demand and play the longer video of the 47/2 match. If you want to feel like a clown with no talent, try playing carom games and compare yourself to Caudron.
If you've already cleared off 'all' the reds no amount of praying is going to give you either a pack to carom into or a red to get position on :smile:
Joking apart, you're absolutely right that O'Sullivan is very good at developing reds but I think several of the best players of the 70's/80's and 90's, when possible and when it was the percentage thing to do, also very often tried to develop reds from the pack before getting to their last loose red. It's of course a very obvious thing to try to do long before the last red, when appropriate.
Ray Reardon, John Spencer, Willie Thorne and Steve Davis come to mind from the 70s and 80's as being all very competent at it and Davis in particular, contrary to some popular belief and partly as a result of that red development ability, was actually a very fast playing big break builder while giving an illusion of being slow. On a cold analysis Alex Higgins on the other hand wasn't actually very good at red development when compared to some of his peers and his immaculate and imaginative safety shot ability (far better than that of Davis for example) is often forgotten in the rush to remember some difficult pots and some speculative smacking of balls around the table.
Greatest cue genius
I only saw him play a couple of times but Ceulemans (along with Harold Worst) are probably the most impressive players I ever saw. I've always felt Three Cushions was the toughest game of all with sticks and balls. NO ONE ever had a more solid stance than Raymond Ceulemans. And that isn't close either. He dominated Three Cushions for more than two decades before the rest of the world began to catch up.
As great as Efren was (and is) at pool, he only really dominated one specific game, One Pocket. At all other pool games he was vulnerable. I've always felt Parica was his equal and maybe a little better gambler (or maybe a lot better). How many World Championships has Ronnie O. won in snooker so far?
When he gets to double figures I will be impressed. I think Hendry won the most and Steve Davis second in the modern era. And Joe Davis was the king for decades before these guys. Joe Davis was the Mosconi of snooker. Ronnie has a ways to go yet to stand alongside these guys.
I only saw him play a couple of times but Ceulemans (along with Harold Worst) are probably the most impressive players I ever saw. I've always felt Three Cushions was the toughest game of all with sticks and balls. NO ONE ever had a more solid stance than Raymond Ceulemans. And that isn't close either. He dominated Three Cushions for more than two decades before the rest of the world began to catch up.
As great as Efren was (and is) at pool, he only really dominated one specific game, One Pocket. At all other pool games he was vulnerable. I've always felt Parica was his equal and maybe a little better gambler (or maybe a lot better). How many World Championships has Ronnie O. won in snooker so far?
When he gets to double figures I will be impressed. I think Hendry won the most and Steve Davis second in the modern era. And Joe Davis was the king for decades before these guys. Joe Davis was the Mosconi of snooker. Ronnie has a ways to go yet to stand alongside these guys.
lol. I knew I was there was a reason I couldn't get that shot to work.
I definitely agree the above players developed the reds quite nicely. I just feel that Ronnie has taken it to a new level. Not just going into the pack off the black or blue, but his little carom shots wherein he pots a red and skims off the pack to open a couple more all the while obtaining position on the black.
It's especially evident when you compare these two matches.
Hendry vs. White 92 finals (full match is on the posters page)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dWJ9ZYPkBQ&feature=channel_page
Hendry vs. O'Sullivan (full match is again on the posters page)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtbnBSnA29M
The second match contains some the of the best snooker ever.
Respectfully I have to disagree in regards to this aspect. Ronnie is playing against far stronger competition than Hendry or Davis ever did. I don't think it is possible to be as dominant as they were because there are just too many guys out there capable of winning any given event. The level of snooker is quite literally unrecognizable from where it was in 80's which is quite evident upon viewing a match that doesn't contain a Davis or a Hendry from the 90's.
Given the talent that he is competing against it would be remarkable if he managed 2 more world titles. As for Joe Davis, he was competing against 4-8 man fields most of them were primarily billiard players I believe. I think Joe is lucky Walter Lindrum never took up snooker :wink:.
What is the record between Hendry and O'Sullivan in matches against each other? O'Sullivan's website lists 21 late-tournament matches between them that I count, with Hendry winning 13 of the 21.
http://www.ronnieosullivan.tv/stats.php
The announcer on this match from the 2008 Crucible semi-final said they have played each other 50 times overall. Does anyone know what their overall record is against each other?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtbnBSnA29M
I have to agree with the announcer here. O'Sullivan may be the most gifted snooker player ever, but at this point in time Hendry is still the greatest snooker player ever.
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You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Actually Mosconi won many of his "World Championships" by beating exactly ONE man in a long challenge match. I'm also not so sure Steve Davis or Stephen Hendry would agree with you. Regardless of O'Sullivan's immense talent in snooker, unless you saw Ceuleman's (or Worst) at their peaks, you have no basis for comparison. I did see both these men play when they were at their best, and all I can say many years later is they were AWESOME!
Efren, Earl, Buddy and Sigel were all great players with special talents but Ceulemans and Worst had intangible qualities that I can't really describe that made them unique among all players. Of the first four I mentioned, Buddy came the closest to these latter two in his ability to control himself, his opponent and the game.
I thought about what I wrote and found something I was looking for. It is one thing to be a great player, and it is still another to be a man's man! A man who other men look up to and admire. When you combine these two qualities, you have found true greatness. Ceulemans and Worst were two who did. They not only played better than their competition, they had a more powerful aura about them. Their opponents looked up to them, whether consciously or unconsciously. This is the intangible quality that makes some athletes excel under pressure and become champions over and over. A Michael Jordan, a Bill Russell, a Jack Nicklaus, a Roger Federer or a Tiger Woods come along once in a lifetime. So did Ceulemans and Worst.
I'm not so sure Ronnie O'Sullivan fills the bill as yet. Only time will tell.
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Joe was very lucky Walter didn't take up snooker. I read somewhere that he changed to snooker and made that popular because he knew Walter Lindrum would never play snooker, Walter held snooker in disdain, he felt it wasn't a skillful game like billiards. I've seen an old video of Walter playing snooker in an exhibtion and he was running balls effortlessly!
True, I have not seen either play in their primes, though I would have loved to. That Worst won a World Three Cusion title along with an all around title at Johnston city has to be considered one of the all time great accomplishments in cue sports.
In regards to level of competition between then and now, I have heard Steve Davis admit that it is stronger now than 20 years ago. Though Davis is very self depricating for a man who himself deserves a spot on a top 10 list of greatest cueists of all time. But you can find evidence in the statistics over the last 30 years. In 80's there were 8 maximums recorded, 25 in the 90's and 35 in 00's (what do we call this decade? ought's?). In 1977 there were 6 centuries recorded at the crucible, in 1990-18, in 1997-39, 2009-83.
I am not infact ready to catagorically state that Ronnie is the greatest cueist of all time (although I'm sure I've said it before after watching a particularily impressive performance). His mental game is just too weak, although it is improving. If he can keep up his current level of play for another 8-10 years then I think he may be deserving.
I think it is unfair to talk about modern snooker without mentioning John Higgins. Ronnie is the best break builder, but John has just as many WC titles and is just as good. In fact he may be slightly ahead at safety play and long pots? Mentally strongest snooker player for sure. Nobody fights like him.
I invited Ronnie once to a big 9-ball tournament in my club in 2006.
351 players played in this tournament.
Ronnie raced through the qualifiers to reach the single knock-out last 64.
And eventually reached the final were he lost to Mika Immonen.
His cueball control was spot on, just his paterns were a little strange.
But then again he makes balls all over the table regardless the position.
Just the break is his weak point, and that is why he lost the most frames during this tournament.
I also have to mention that he played this tournament with my cue, wich he never played with before!!!
Oh yeah and he borrowed my fathers pants :grin:
MH
HOB Weert
351 players played in this tournament.
Ronnie raced through the qualifiers to reach the single knock-out last 64.
And eventually reached the final were he lost to Mika Immonen.
His cueball control was spot on, just his paterns were a little strange.
But then again he makes balls all over the table regardless the position.
Just the break is his weak point, and that is why he lost the most frames during this tournament.
I also have to mention that he played this tournament with my cue, wich he never played with before!!!
Oh yeah and he borrowed my fathers pants :grin:
MH
HOB Weert
I have known Ronnie O'Sullivan since he was 10 years old, Stephen Hendry since he was 13, Steve Davis when he had long hair.
I have played (in practice) against Efren at The World Masters and against Raymond Cuelemans in his own club in Mechelen in Belgium.
I have seen Blomdahl and Jaspers in action and just by way of showing a notable transition between discplines - Darren Appleton's switch from English 8 Ball to World 10 Ball Champion.
I have seen Stalev Senior play Pyramids to perfection and seen the best in Five Quilles, Bagatelle, English Billiards, Straight Pool, Bar Box, Bar Billiards, Snooker Plus and all the knockabout games.
Unfortunately I never saw Walter Lindrum except for recordings.
My Vote: Cuelemans just edges past Efren.
I have played (in practice) against Efren at The World Masters and against Raymond Cuelemans in his own club in Mechelen in Belgium.
I have seen Blomdahl and Jaspers in action and just by way of showing a notable transition between discplines - Darren Appleton's switch from English 8 Ball to World 10 Ball Champion.
I have seen Stalev Senior play Pyramids to perfection and seen the best in Five Quilles, Bagatelle, English Billiards, Straight Pool, Bar Box, Bar Billiards, Snooker Plus and all the knockabout games.
Unfortunately I never saw Walter Lindrum except for recordings.
My Vote: Cuelemans just edges past Efren.
madfedaykin
Registered
Daryl Peach on who is the greatest cueist
Got this from an interview of Daryl Peach by 9BallPool.co.uk back in 2004:
Interviewer: "Who, in your opinion, was the greatest ever to pick up a cue (snooker, pool, whatever)?"
Daryl Peach: "Snooker: Ronnie O'Sullivan
Pool: Efren Reyes
Overall: Efren because I saw him play Jimmy White and Ronnie O'Sullivan 6 years ago, at snooker best of 5 for �100 each if I remember rightly: he beat both of them with his pool cue, and he made 3 centuries!! Now that's special."
Here's the link: http://9ballpool.co.uk/interviews/daryl_peach_240604.html
Got this from an interview of Daryl Peach by 9BallPool.co.uk back in 2004:
Interviewer: "Who, in your opinion, was the greatest ever to pick up a cue (snooker, pool, whatever)?"
Daryl Peach: "Snooker: Ronnie O'Sullivan
Pool: Efren Reyes
Overall: Efren because I saw him play Jimmy White and Ronnie O'Sullivan 6 years ago, at snooker best of 5 for �100 each if I remember rightly: he beat both of them with his pool cue, and he made 3 centuries!! Now that's special."
Here's the link: http://9ballpool.co.uk/interviews/daryl_peach_240604.html
WOW. I need to say it again. WOW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYxq72-J-G8&eurl=http://
O'Sullivan's first match of this new season, finishing his first century clearance of the night with his left hand.
I recommend watching the whole match, he made two more in the following frames, alternating between hands the whole time. With a new cue that he doesn't really like.
I thought the Daryl Peach thing was addressed by Efren himself as being innaccurate?
It seems strange to me that Daryl would rate Efren higher than Ronnie, when he started as a struggling snooker player and could barely get in the top 200. Against Efren he's much more even, and against Ronnie at snooker he doesn't stand a chance.
I vote Ronnie in this one, for me his touch and control of the balls is unrivalled and I think he'd be an exceptional straight pool player if he gave it a try. His shot selection, positional play and ability to develop clusters with precision cannons whilst maintaining good position make him perfect for it.
O'Sullivan's first match of this new season, finishing his first century clearance of the night with his left hand.
I recommend watching the whole match, he made two more in the following frames, alternating between hands the whole time. With a new cue that he doesn't really like.
I thought the Daryl Peach thing was addressed by Efren himself as being innaccurate?
It seems strange to me that Daryl would rate Efren higher than Ronnie, when he started as a struggling snooker player and could barely get in the top 200. Against Efren he's much more even, and against Ronnie at snooker he doesn't stand a chance.
I vote Ronnie in this one, for me his touch and control of the balls is unrivalled and I think he'd be an exceptional straight pool player if he gave it a try. His shot selection, positional play and ability to develop clusters with precision cannons whilst maintaining good position make him perfect for it.
I seem to recall that the Efren thing was not so cut and dried. Maybe he was getting weight-not sure but there was something that clouded that story.
Torbjörn Blomdahl should be a part of ANY of these discussions if you are talking about cue sport genius.
IMO Efren cannot be considered, due to his inability to dominate a game "9-ball" that cannot be dominated. One of the biggest problems of this sport is that it's level of required skill and dependence on luck on the break will never allow a Tiger or a Federer to rise to the top of the sport and dominate. Efren's most successful decade was the 90's and it was Archer that got the "Player of the Decade" nod.
I am not sure Ronnie has become the clear choice over a prime Hendry, although I like O'Sullivan more. Hendry was not as flashy as O'Sullivan, but in his prime he was easily as seemingly unbeatable as O'Sullivan is today.