Rule on ball frozen to rail

J

JimSabatke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had thought for ages that the rule on an object ball frozen to the rail was that either the object ball (if not pocketed) or cue ball had to hit a different rail, or the same rail if hitting another ball first.

I was playing 14.1 straight pool today and my partner had just learned about the frozen ball (cue ball to object ball) rule, that you can hit it with a normal stroke and there's no double hit, when I said "there's another frozen ball rule," the one with the object ball frozen to the rail.

He exploded, yelled and screamed for quite a while, then said I only said that to upset him so he'd lose. Yeah, I know, he's a whiner and barely worth playing with, and I won't be playing with him if he continues to be so obnoxious in that and numerous other ways. BTW, he hadn't broken that rule, so I wasn't calling it, and I don't recall him ever breaking it, so the tirade was really unexpected.

Then I came home and looked for the rule. I couldn't find it under BCA rules. Where is the frozen to rail rule found? Or, does it exist anymore?

Thanks,

Jim
 
cue ball can hit the same rail, but if you double kiss the ob, you be screwed, unless you hit it hard enough to bounce to another rail.

The ob cannot hit the same rail, thus it needs to hit another rail, or the cb can hit any rail after contact with the frozen ob.

Also, I play that opponent needs to confirm it was frozen prior to the shot. He can't call it a foul if I double hit the ob and the cb hits no rail.
 
3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;

(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;

(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;

(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
cue ball can hit the same rail, but if you double kiss the ob, you be screwed, unless you hit it hard enough to bounce to another rail.

The ob cannot hit the same rail, thus it needs to hit another rail, or the cb can hit any rail after contact with the frozen ob.

Also, I play that opponent needs to confirm it was frozen prior to the shot. He can't call it a foul if I double hit the ob and the cb hits no rail.
Click to expand...
The OB can hit the same rail, at least in WPA rules:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play#6.3

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.

pj
chgo
 
JimSabatke said:
I had thought for ages that the rule on an object ball frozen to the rail was that either the object ball (if not pocketed) or cue ball had to hit a different rail, or the same rail if hitting another ball first.

I was playing 14.1 straight pool today and my partner had just learned about the frozen ball (cue ball to object ball) rule, that you can hit it with a normal stroke and there's no double hit, when I said "there's another frozen ball rule," the one with the object ball frozen to the rail.

He exploded, yelled and screamed for quite a while, then said I only said that to upset him so he'd lose. Yeah, I know, he's a whiner and barely worth playing with, and I won't be playing with him if he continues to be so obnoxious in that and numerous other ways. BTW, he hadn't broken that rule, so I wasn't calling it, and I don't recall him ever breaking it, so the tirade was really unexpected.

Then I came home and looked for the rule. I couldn't find it under BCA rules. Where is the frozen to rail rule found? Or, does it exist anymore?

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...


I learned this at Derby this year as well. I ALWAYS played and was taught that in a frozen ball situation that the CB or OB had to be driven to a different rail or another legally struck ball could be driven to any rail.

A frozen ball hasn't the same weight as it used to at least the way I had learned growing up and playing.

Gary
 
JimSabatke said:
I had thought for ages that the rule on an object ball frozen to the rail was that either the object ball (if not pocketed) or cue ball had to hit a different rail, or the same rail if hitting another ball first.

I was playing 14.1 straight pool today and my partner had just learned about the frozen ball (cue ball to object ball) rule, that you can hit it with a normal stroke and there's no double hit, when I said "there's another frozen ball rule," the one with the object ball frozen to the rail.

He exploded, yelled and screamed for quite a while, then said I only said that to upset him so he'd lose. Yeah, I know, he's a whiner and barely worth playing with, and I won't be playing with him if he continues to be so obnoxious in that and numerous other ways. BTW, he hadn't broken that rule, so I wasn't calling it, and I don't recall him ever breaking it, so the tirade was really unexpected.

Then I came home and looked for the rule. I couldn't find it under BCA rules. Where is the frozen to rail rule found? Or, does it exist anymore?

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...

If I understand your question(?) that rule never existed. There is a somewhat similar
requirement in One Pocket.

General rule <other than One Pocket>

Ob frozen to a rail must be driven to another rail(foreign rail) OR cue ball must contact a rail(any rail) after contact with
OB. And yes, if the OB hits another ball and comes back to the same rail it is not a violation.
BTW, the shooter must be informed prior to the shot if an OB is frozen.

HTH
Dale
 
I do now see that the rules are very clear that the cue ball just has to hit "a" rail.

Has there been a change to this rule, or is there possibly a different organization that might have a rule like I detailed? I came on that some years ago after I played a shot where the object ball was frozen to a rail and I "bumped" the object ball with the cue ball, with the cue ball bouncing very softly off the same rail. My opponent claimed a foul and produced a document that very clearly detailed that either the cue or object ball had to hit a different rail, or the same rail if hitting another ball first. I remember it extremely clearly, and I thought it was a BCA document, though after time my memory may not be as good on that point. Also, and I know this is not proof, the "rules experts" where I play, who referee league games, also say that the rule I understood is correct. Obviously I can't find it in any current literature. Is it possible that it once existed and was removed?

TIA

Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The OB can hit the same rail, at least in WPA rules:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play#6.3

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Even under BCAPL rules it may be a legal shot IF the OB leaves the cushion and contacts another object ball before returning to the cushion. Here's the applied ruling (pages 89 and 90 here: http://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html)

Figure 10-9 applies to Situation 7. The 5-ball near pocket A has been declared frozen to the cushion. 7. Situation: Player A, with the 5-ball as a legal object ball, contacts the 5-ball, driving it away from the cushion. Then, because of an imperfection in the table or other reason, the 5-ball returns to the same cushion without contacting another ball. Neither the cue ball nor any other object ball contacts a cushion or is pocketed.

Ruling: Foul. To be legal, the 5-ball must contact an object ball before returning to the cushion it was frozen to at the beginning of the shot.
Click to expand...
 
Object ball frozen to rail rule

DogsPlayingPool said:
Even under BCAPL rules it may be a legal shot IF the OB leaves the cushion and contacts another object ball before returning to the cushion. Here's the applied ruling (pages 89 and 90 here: http://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html)
Click to expand...

OK, now THAT is EXACTLY the rule that I remembered, and those are the details that I remembered. I wonder why it shows up in the BCAPL and not BCA rules?

Jim
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Even under BCAPL rules it may be a legal shot IF the OB leaves the cushion and contacts another object ball before returning to the cushion. Here's the applied ruling (pages 89 and 90 here: http://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html)
Click to expand...

Both Patrick and Dogs are correct. The requirement for the frozen OB to touch another ball before touching the same cushion was dropped by WSR in 2008, but kept by CSI.

Buddy

Edit: CSI still differentiates between cushions and rails in the terminology of the rules, so the effect of the frozen OB leaving one cushion, crossing the mouth of the side pocket, and contacting the cushion on the other side is the same in both CSI and WSR... legal.
 
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JimSabatke said:
OK, now THAT is EXACTLY the rule that I remembered, and those are the details that I remembered. I wonder why it shows up in the BCAPL and not BCA rules?

Jim
Click to expand...

The short answer is that the BCAPL rules were written by the league/CSI staff.

Patrick already nicely covered the BCA rules, which are in fact the WPA World Standardized Rules. As he pointed out, under WPA rules there is no requirement to contact another object ball, just that it leaves the cushion and retouches.

I do prefer the way the BCAPL rules are written though, and the applied rulings section helps fill in the gaps where unusual situations occur. The WPA/BCA rules have no such applied rulings section. I guess I'm partial to this because it is also very helpful in interpreting the rules of golf.
 
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brokenarrowjbe said:
3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball ....
Click to expand...
The quoted rule is an old, broken rule that is no longer valid. I think it may have been from the BCA rules prior to 2008. It is possible to find this rule on the BCA site via google, but I think it is from an old, orphaned page that has simply not been deleted yet. If you go to the BCA main page and look for the rules link, you should get the current rules, or you can go directly to the WPA site.

Under the WPA rules, if the table is so tilted that the frozen ball returns to the cushion due to gravity, it counts as a rail contact.

I assume that under BCAPL rules the table has six cushions.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The quoted rule is an old, broken rule that is no longer valid. I think it may have been from the BCA rules prior to 2008. It is possible to find this rule on the BCA site via google, but I think it is from an old, orphaned page that has simply not been deleted yet.

I assume that under BCAPL rules the table has six cushions.
Click to expand...

Exactly correct on both counts...see the edit on my last post.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
The short answer is that the BCAPL rules were written by the league/CSI staff.

Patrick already nicely covered the BCA rules, which are in fact the WPA World Standardized Rules. As he pointed out, under WPA rules there is no requirement to contact another object ball, just that it leaves the cushion and retouches.

I do prefer the way the BCAPL rules are written though, and the applied rulings section helps fill in the gaps where unusual situations occur. The WPA/BCA rules have no such applied rulings section. I guess I'm partial to this because it is also very helpful in interpreting the rules of golf.
Click to expand...

I almost said the same thing about "Interpretations On The Rules Of Golf," which is almost more useful than the actual rules book (of course you do need both), because it contains very detailed rulings during actual play where unexpected things happen, for example, a ball moving during a swing during an earthquake. I've said for a long time that a book like that for billiards would be the next best thing to a muzzle that throws like a bolo for use with obnoxious playing partners like the one that started screaming at me over casually mentioning this rule. :rolleyes:

Thanks all,

Jim
 
When I started playing in mid-late 80s and was reading a lot of books, some of which were older, I know I read that if a ball was frozen, the cueball or that ball had to contact another rail. Basically the rail was "dead" to both balls. Since then, I have only heard that if the cueball hits that same rail, that is a good hit.

So at some point that rule was around, not now, and it may have been a rule only in certain games even when I read it.
 
A different old rule involving balls frozen to a rail is an antiquated 14.1 rule where after 2 or 3 innings by each player where the same ball was hit to the same rail the ball could be declared frozen by the referee even if it wasn't. The players would then have to drive the ball to a different rail to be legal. This rule was removed long ago, but interesting nonetheless.
 
A different old rule involving balls frozen to a rail is an antiquated 14.1 rule where after 2 or 3 innings by each player where the same ball was hit to the same rail the ball could be declared frozen by the referee even if it wasn't. The players would then have to drive the ball to a different rail to be legal. This rule was removed long ago, but interesting nonetheless. ...
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The rule changed in 2008. At the same time the stalemate rule for 14.1 was added.

The whole point of the "third hit it's frozen" rule was to avoid a stalemate. The problem was that things could get very complicated. Suppose after the first hit on the ball by the cushion the player shoots softly to a nearby ball and gets no rail. Does the sequence of three hits somehow continue? If not, the players could alternate fouls and soft safes forever.
 
I guess it wasn't as long ago as I thought. Good information, Bob. Thank you. Your explanation for the rule change makes perfect sense because as I was typing up the explanation of the old rule I was thinking I may have had it wrong because I was envisioning a scenario that you described.
 
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JimSabatke said:
I was playing 14.1 straight pool today and my partner had just learned about the frozen ball (cue ball to object ball) rule, that you can hit it with a normal stroke and there's no double hit, when I said "there's another frozen ball rule," the one with the object ball frozen to the rail.
Click to expand...
FYI, lots of examples and video demonstrations of both legal and illegal frozen-CB shots can be found here:

frozen CB shot resource page

and lots of examples of shots (both legal hits and fouls) where the OB is frozen to the cushion can be found in part 4 here:

NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz

You should suggest to your friend that he watch these. He might be interested ... and he might learn something.

Regards,
Dave
 
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