Rules question please!!

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yankee817299

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We are playing under BCA 8-ball rules. A player called a safety shot and left his opponent locked up behind the 8 ball. The opponent intentionally struck the 8 ball with his tip as a shot and pushed the 8 ball against one of his opponents balls.

Is the incoming player allowed to move the 8 ball back close to its original position? Does this type of shot constitute a loss of game?

Clearly an illegal shot and ball in hand.
 
no, there is no reset or a loss on a deliberate foul.
That is how the game is played and scored,
who won?
 
8 ball was move, but not as part of the/a legal shot.

No different than the case that the user made a legal shot and moved a ball with the cue by mistake.

In this case, it is always the incoming players option to replace any balls moved that weren't part of a legal shot.

That's how I see it. :)
 
It is a bad hit, a foul, striking the object ball first.
Inadvertent bumps and such are at the opponents 'option to fix.
If the inadvertent bump is with the tip/ferrule of the cue,
it is a foul, if you're keeping score.
 
Hitting the 8 rather than the cue ball with your tip is more than a deliberate foul, it's considered unsportsmanlike conduct and would usually be loss of game.
 
yankee817299 said:
We are playing under BCA 8-ball rules. A player called a safety shot and left his opponent locked up behind the 8 ball. The opponent intentionally struck the 8 ball with his tip as a shot and pushed the 8 ball against one of his opponents balls.

Is the incoming player allowed to move the 8 ball back close to its original position? Does this type of shot constitute a loss of game?

Clearly an illegal shot and ball in hand.
Click to expand...
Flogging.

For BCA (not BCAPL CSI), it comes under Unsportsmanlike Conduct

"6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct

The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the
referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points. Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately."
​

I think we should just do away with the "warning" option and go straight to loss of game and flogging.

For CSI rules, I don't see them addressing this as specifically Unsportsmanlike, but flogging should be an option. Else, it's disturbing the object ball, and the opponent gets to put it back where he wants.

Edit: yest, they do address it under 1-40, Section C

"1-40 Deliberate Foul

c. Object balls: It is a deliberate foul if you intentionally stop or deflect any object ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play, by any method other than a legal shot, including by intentionally contacting or moving any part of the table in any way. (AR p. 91)

Penalties First violation of (c): your opponent may have the object ball restored (if it was stationary), pocketed or left in its position after the foul. However, it is loss of game if it is the game-winning ball, if any deflected object ball contacts any other ball, or if more than one ball is moved."​




People who play like this really need more than flogging.
 
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I agree with the unsportsmanlike part, it's scored in that unwritten established player
section, just haven't seen it called as a loss or anything beyond a foul-ball in hand.
 
BRussell said:
Hitting the 8 rather than the cue ball with your tip is more than a deliberate foul, it's considered unsportsmanlike conduct and would usually be loss of game.
Click to expand...

If an impartial ref rules it unsoirtsmanlike absolutely.

Had a guy just shoot one of his object balls in with his stick...not happening. Put it back where it was tied up,and I took ball in hand.
 
yankee817299 said:
We are playing under BCA 8-ball rules. A player called a safety shot and left his opponent locked up behind the 8 ball. The opponent intentionally struck the 8 ball with his tip as a shot and pushed the 8 ball against one of his opponents balls.



Is the incoming player allowed to move the 8 ball back close to its original position? Does this type of shot constitute a loss of game?



Clearly an illegal shot and ball in hand.
Click to expand...


If the ball was moved with the tip, stick, hand, or anything other than shooting the cue ball into it, the opponent can either leave the ball where it is or move it back.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
KMRUNOUT said:
If the ball was moved with the tip, stick, hand, or anything other than shooting the cue ball into it, the opponent can either leave the ball where it is or move it back. ...
Click to expand...
I assume the OP meant BCAPL even though he said BCA. (Those two organizations have different rules.)

Here is the BCAPL rule:

1-40 Deliberate Foul ....
c. Object balls: It is a deliberate foul if you intentionally stop or deflect any object ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play, by any method other than a legal shot, including by intentionally contacting or moving any part of the table in any way. (AR p. 91)
Penalties First violation of (c): your opponent may have the object ball restored (if it was stationary), pocketed or left in its position after the foul. However, it is loss of game if it is the game-winning ball, if any deflected object ball contacts any other ball, or if more than one ball is moved.​

​
According to this, because the ball intentionally touched was the game winning ball, it is loss of game. I think there is no ambiguity here.
 
I don't care what format I am playing - if some dingbat strikes an object with his cue on purpose as some sort of 'shot', I am not shooting another shot in that rack as that rack is now over.
 
yankee817299 said:
We are playing under BCA 8-ball rules. A player called a safety shot and left his opponent locked up behind the 8 ball. The opponent intentionally struck the 8 ball with his tip as a shot and pushed the 8 ball against one of his opponents balls.

Is the incoming player allowed to move the 8 ball back close to its original position? Does this type of shot constitute a loss of game?

Clearly an illegal shot and ball in hand.
Click to expand...
No, this is not ball-in-hand! This is clearly an unsportsmanlike foul - loss of game - No warning necessary - just too bad if the player committing the foul didn't know it. I will admit I don't know what the BCA rules state or any other rulebook for that matter, but that is how I'd rule it if it happened in our tournaments and I'm tournament director - just common sense no brainer - the right thing to do and now the shooter knows never to try that again.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
I assume the OP meant BCAPL even though he said BCA. (Those two organizations have different rules.)

Here is the BCAPL rule:

1-40 Deliberate Foul ....
c. Object balls: It is a deliberate foul if you intentionally stop or deflect any object ball that is in motion, or intentionally move any stationary object ball that is in play, by any method other than a legal shot, including by intentionally contacting or moving any part of the table in any way. (AR p. 91)
Penalties First violation of (c): your opponent may have the object ball restored (if it was stationary), pocketed or left in its position after the foul. However, it is loss of game if it is the game-winning ball, if any deflected object ball contacts any other ball, or if more than one ball is moved.​

​
According to this, because the ball intentionally touched was the game winning ball, it is loss of game. I think there is no ambiguity here.
Click to expand...

Exactly... I lost a game because of this rule at the BCA Nationals at the Riv about 10 years ago. I got kind of screwed on the interpretation of the rule though...

What I did was catch the 8 ball as it dropped off the table and into the corner pocket on the break. I was just grabbing it to re-spot it (tables weren't open, so I was just trying to save the time it would take a ref to open up the table/save the token.)

Still bitter about that one! :)
 
so, intentionally fouling, as the OP describes, is a loss of game.
No matter if the money ball, 8 ball in this case, is up for the win or just in play as usual
during any inning of play?

Kind of why eyes wanting to know who won, because in this case, if witnessed, I would
think the LO could make a good call to change the win in favor of the offended.
 
yankee817299 said:
We are playing under BCA 8-ball rules. A player called a safety shot and left his opponent locked up behind the 8 ball. The opponent intentionally struck the 8 ball with his tip as a shot and pushed the 8 ball against one of his opponents balls.

Is the incoming player allowed to move the 8 ball back close to its original position? Does this type of shot constitute a loss of game?

Clearly an illegal shot and ball in hand.
Click to expand...

In a BCAPL, this would be a foul. This type of foul, the opponent gets to put the 8 ball where it was or as close as possible. You would also get ball in hand.
In addition, if it is a National event, a ref should be notified and the shooting player would be given a warning of unsportsmanlike conduct. If it happens again, it would be loss of game/and or match.
 
tucson9ball said:
In a BCAPL, this would be a foul. This type of foul, the opponent gets to put the 8 ball where it was or as close as possible. You would also get ball in hand.
In addition, if it is a National event, a ref should be notified and the shooting player would be given a warning of unsportsmanlike conduct. If it happens again, it would be loss of game/and or match.
Click to expand...
Do you feel the quoted rule above does not apply?
 
This is a serious breach of the rules and clearly an egregious example of unsportsmanlike conduct.

If this happened in my league, the player would lose the game and be warned that any similar act in the future would be cause for expulsion from the league.

There's playing the game utilizing strategy that's within the rules, then there's cheating using strategy that's outside the rules.
 
yankee817299,
what was the outcome, the understanding there, as you explained it.
Was it brought up to the LO?
How did it play out?
My thinking at first was deliberate foul, not any different than hitting opponents' ball(s)
first, with cue ball. buuuut, after thinking about it, I'd be in the WTF was that, too.
anyways don't see to many deliberate fouls, the one that gets me in trouble is when I do
a decent safety/snooker the opponent just hands me the cue ball.
 
The incoming shooter moved the 8-ball back and took ball in hand, played another safety and locked up his opponent a 2nd time. This time his opponent got down to shoot one of his opponents balls, not the cue ball, and roll it up against the 8-ball. At that the point the other shooter was up-set, called it a deliberate foul and took the win, after some arguing.
 
Also, Dan B, I was told that an opponent handing you the cue ball is a thing of the past now?? From what I understand, the rules commission wants you to "shoot out" of the bad position by attempting a legal shot or safety.
 
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