Rules question? {Safety after the break}

MastersMaster

MastersMaster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have seen many, many different problems and and situations arise due to not understanding or differing interpretations of rules. The other night at league, this situation came up: Player A broke the rack and broke dry. Player B comes to the table, an ugly layout, and calls safe, shooting a solid into a stripe and pocketing the stripe.

Player A returns to the table with no reasonably good shot available, and some discussion ensued as to wether the table was still open as a result of the prior shot by player B.

My question to the masses...would you interpret this to still be an open table or would player B have actually become stripes. I searched my rule books, but could not find a definitive answer. BTW, this is a dual-sanctioned VNEA-BCA league.
 
MastersMaster said:
I have seen many, many different problems and and situations arise due to not understanding or differing interpretations of rules. The other night at league, this situation came up: Player A broke the rack and broke dry. Player B comes to the table, an ugly layout, and calls safe, shooting a solid into a stripe and pocketing the stripe.

Player A returns to the table with no reasonably good shot available, and some discussion ensued as to wether the table was still open as a result of the prior shot by player B.

My question to the masses...would you interpret this to still be an open table or would player B have actually become stripes. I searched my rule books, but could not find a definitive answer. BTW, this is a dual-sanctioned VNEA-BCA league.
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It is still open.

BVal
 
BVal said:
It is still open.

BVal
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I agree. Only a legally pocketed shot would establish a player as high or low. That shot was a safety, not a legal attempt to establish himself.
 
BVal said:
It is still open.

BVal
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I'm not up-to-speed with league rules -- as league rules are really weird and non-standard sometimes -- but if you call a safe and pocket a ball, BVal is right, it's open.
 
I would think that the player that just sunk the ball would be that suite because he called safe.

In that situation though I doubt I would ever call safe. I would pocket the suite I wanted to pocket, and then I would play safe after that.

There is so much stuff on the table at this point you can't tell me he couldn't have gotten position on something else to play safe after that shot.
 
WesleyW said:
Are you sure? (because I don't think so)
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I am pretty sure. If you call a safety that is exactly what it is. You did not call a ball or pocket to properly and legally establish if you are stripes or solids. It is open. It is much different if you are already extablished as one or the other and then call a safety.

BVal
 
lodini said:
I agree. Only a legally pocketed shot would establish a player as high or low. That shot was a safety, not a legal attempt to establish himself.
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4.12 "SAFETY" SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a "safety" to the opponent. It is the shooter?s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the opponent?s group, the opponent must call a foul on him before he takes his next shot. If he fails to do so, the player automatically takes over the group of balls (solids or stripes) at which he has been shooting during this inning.
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So I still think it's not a open table.
 
BVal said:
I am pretty sure. If you call a safety that is exactly what it is. You did not call a ball or pocket to properly and legally establish if you are stripes or solids. It is open. It is much different if you are already extablished as one or the other and then call a safety.

BVal
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Ok, you got a point.
 
WesleyW said:
So I still think it's not a open table.
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The thing is - the player did not call the stripe ball in the corner pocket - he called safety therefore not specifying that he was going to pocket a ball at all. For all we know it was an accident he even pocketed a ball. If you have to call your pocket but do not call a pocket or a ball but play a safety then how could it not be open still?

BVal
 
Such a ball is not a "called object ball", so the table is still open. The situation is the same as when a ball is lucked in while the table is open.
 
BVal said:
The thing is - the player did not call the stripe ball in the corner pocket - he called safety therefore not specifying that he was going to pocket a ball at all. For all we know it was an accident he even pocketed a ball. If you have to call your pocket but do not call a pocket or a ball but play a safety then how could it not be open still?

BVal
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What if you call the pocket and also say "safe", would that count?
 
In BCA rules the table is not open any longer, the player that played the safe played a legal shot and chose the ball pocketed. Once he called safe he called a legal shot and no foul occured so he made the first ball, table no longer open.

4.12 “SAFETY” SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a “safety” to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.
 
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WesleyW said:
What if you call the pocket and also say "safe", would that count?
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I am not aware that you can do that - It has to be one or the other.

BVal
 
selftaut said:
In BCA rules the table is not open any longer, the player that played the safe played a legal shot and chose the ball pocketed. Once he called safe he called a legal shot and no foul occured so he made the first ball, table no longer open.

4.12 ?SAFETY? SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring ?safety? in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a ?safety? to the opponent. It is the shooter?s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter?s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.
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Here's the part you are missing. The safety itself is a "legal shot"... but a ball that is pocketed during a safety is considered to be illegally pocketed.


4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.


And in this case, no one controlled either group of balls yet... hence, still open.
 
BVal said:
I am pretty sure. If you call a safety that is exactly what it is. You did not call a ball or pocket to properly and legally establish if you are stripes or solids. It is open. It is much different if you are already extablished as one or the other and then call a safety.

BVal
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Exactly. Calling safe and making a ball is the same thing as intentionally calling the ball in the wrong pocket and making it anyways. I once played in a league that didn't allow you to make a ball and play safe - everything was called. So I always called a ridiculous pocket and rolled to where I wanted to be. People were infuriated. I say, tough... stop playing by stupid rules.
 
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