Ruling on 8-Ball Shot ...

Str8PoolPlayer

“1966 500 SuperFast”
Silver Member
I played in a local 8-Ball Tournament tonight and was successfully fighting my way back to play in the finals, when something very peculiar happened during my shot on the 8-Ball (for a win).

Just as the tip of my Cue contacted the CB, the 8-Ball (5 ft. away) began to roll toward the center of the table and I (obviously) missed the shot, leaving a short straight-in for my opponent.

My contention is that the game should have been replayed, but my request fell on deaf ears all around.

What would be the ruling from a BCA Official, had they been referee-ing the game ?

I suppose I am old school and would certainly have offered to replay the game, possibly on a different table, had I been the opponent.
 
Str8PoolPlayer...Is it possible that you perhaps bumped the table, as you were stroking the CB? That could cause the 8-ball to move, even though it was at the other end of the table. If so, that would probably be considered an "act of God", and the game would resume, with your opponent getting ball in hand. If someone else was standing near enough to bump the table, that would be considered poor sportsmanship, at least...and the balls could be replaced, as close to their original position as possible, with the same shooter still up. BTW, that's a really nice looking car in your avitar.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Str8PoolPlayer...Is it possible that you perhaps bumped the table, as you were stroking the CB? That could cause the 8-ball to move, even though it was at the other end of the table. If so, that would probably be considered an "act of God", and the game would resume, with your opponent getting ball in hand. If someone else was standing near enough to bump the table, that would be considered poor sportsmanship, at least...and the balls could be replaced, as close to their original position as possible, with the same shooter still up. BTW, that's a really nice looking car in your avitar.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thank You for the reply ... Several people were closely watching the action (away from the table) and said the ball moved on it's own and that I did not bump the table ... Upon close inspection after my opponent pocketed the 8-Ball, I found a large "void" under the cloth where the 8-Ball was positioned just before I shot ... I would call that faulty equipment and believe the match should have been replayed ... I have been playing since 1951 and NEVER experienced anything like this until now, even on crappy bar tables.

BTW - The Car is 1 of only 6 ever built ...
 
Str8PoolPlayer...So how did they rule...sounds like ball in hand for your opponent, from your first post. Wow...playing since 1951! You got me by 20 years! Now I gotta ask ya...do you OWN that car?:eek: If so, can I go for a ride???:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thank You for the reply ... Several people were closely watching the action (away from the table) and said the ball moved on it's own and that I did not bump the table ... Upon close inspection after my opponent pocketed the 8-Ball, I found a large "void" under the cloth where the 8-Ball was positioned just before I shot ... I would call that faulty equipment and believe the match should have been replayed ... I have been playing since 1951 and NEVER experienced anything like this until now, even on crappy bar tables.

BTW - The Car is 1 of only 6 ever built ...
 
I played in a local 8-Ball Tournament tonight and was successfully fighting my way back to play in the finals, when something very peculiar happened during my shot on the 8-Ball (for a win).
Just as the tip of my Cue contacted the CB, the 8-Ball (5 ft. away) began to roll toward the center of the table and I (obviously) missed the shot, leaving a short straight-in for my opponent.
My contention is that the game should have been replayed, but my request fell on deaf ears all around.
What would be the ruling from a BCA Official, had they been referee-ing the game ?
I suppose I am old school and would certainly have offered to replay the game, possibly on a different table, had I been the opponent.


That was really an unfortunate occurance. Seems that the pool gods did not want you to win. As awful as it seems, if no one caused the ball to move, ie, an illegal touch, etc, the shot would have to go as played. I have actually seen something very similar to this once before on a table that also had a small divot in the slate under the cloth. I would have hated (as I am certain you did) to have had this happen, especially on such a crucial shot.
Joe
 
Str8PoolPlayer...So how did they rule...sounds like ball in hand for your opponent, from your first post. Wow...playing since 1951! You got me by 20 years! Now I gotta ask ya...do you OWN that car?:eek: If so, can I go for a ride???:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Scott, I believe he said he made contact with the 8 ball, but failed to pocket it due to the premature ball movement, leaving an easy shot for the match for his opponent.

Joe
 
Str8PoolPlayer...So how did they rule...sounds like ball in hand for your opponent, from your first post. Wow...playing since 1951! You got me by 20 years! Now I gotta ask ya...do you OWN that car?:eek: If so, can I go for a ride???:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Actually Bama is right ... The CB did make contact with the 8-Ball and drove it to the rail, so NO BIH for the opponent. However, it was lined up straight and he made an easy shot.

I feel I should not have been penalized for defective equipment on the part of the match sponsors and the game should have been replayed on a different table. Of course, my opponent clammed-up and just shot the 8-Ball in like nothing happened.

Obviously, at my age, I came from a different school of thought and principles when it comes to sportsmanship. I've never needed or wanted to win something so bad that I would compromise good sportsmanship.

Yes, I owned the Car for many years and enjoyed driving it in many Rallies and Historic Car Races. I'd rather not say what it sold for, but let's just say I won't go hungry even if the Market goes down another 6k points.
 
Str8PoolPlayer...Too bad! I would have loved to ride in it (read: fantasy drive)!:D I've been in a couple of Ferraris before, but never one like that!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yes, I owned the Car for many years and enjoyed driving it in many Rallies and Historic Car Races. I'd rather not say what it sold for, but let's just say I won't go hungry even if the Market goes down another 6k points.[/COLOR]
 
It's just bad luck. Clear you mind and move on.

I was playing a guy one time and my game ball went down into the pocket, hung out for a while, drank a beer, felt up the sexy purple ball for a while and then miraculously popped out and landed in the jaws of the pocket. Not IN AND OUT... but IN...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... then out.

Guy tapped it in and I lost. You could imagine my intense anger as my protest fell of deaf ears as well. My teeth grinded down flatter than an Indian who chewed down an entire buffalo ass-hide.

It is what it is when those things happen. Nothing you can do but roll your eyes and move on.

Dave
 
Hmm, I thought the shot should be restored, but looking more carefully at the rules, maybe not. Rules 1.7 and 1.9 seem to dance around the issue but don't quite cover it:

1.7 Balls Settling

A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.​

1.9 Outside Interference

When outside interference occurs during a shot that has an effect on the outcome of that shot, the referee will restore the balls to the positions they had before the shot, and the shot will be replayed. If the interference had no effect on the shot, the referee will restore the disturbed balls and play will continue. If the balls cannot be restored to their original positions, the situation is handled like a stalemate.​

Rule 1.7 doesn't quite apply because the 8-ball didn't fall into the pocket when it moved. Rule 1.9 would only apply if you could argue that "outside interference" caused the 8-ball to move, not "settling". Either way, I think the "spirit of the rules" calls for restoring the balls and letting you shoot again, but maybe I'm grasping at straws.....
 
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It's just bad luck. Clear you mind and move on.

I was playing a guy one time and my game ball went down into the pocket, hung out for a while, drank a beer, felt up the sexy purple ball for a while and then miraculously popped out and landed in the jaws of the pocket. Not IN AND OUT... but IN...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... then out.

Guy tapped it in and I lost. You could imagine my intense anger as my protest fell of deaf ears as well. My teeth grinded down flatter than an Indian who chewed down an entire buffalo ass-hide.

It is what it is when those things happen. Nothing you can do but roll your eyes and move on.

Dave

Not at all........you could have extracted the cheating little dwarf accomplice hiding in the pocket and stuffed him down your opponents throat :)
 
Quick official BCAPL response

In BCAPL play is the shot stands and play on. Likely the same in WPA. Gotta run now - will post a detailed reply tonight...

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee (WOW!! very humbled to be promoted )
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rul...2/Default.aspx


* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
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1.7 Balls Settling[/URL]

A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back.

Seems to me from the rule above that "it is considered a normal hazard of play". End of discussion regarding a rule interpretation.

Don't know what rules the above are based on.

As for BCA rules my book says in the "General Rules of Pocket Billiards" section:

3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY

"If a ball shifts, settles, turns, or otherwise moves 'by itself,' the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. ..."

As such, the ball settled. You were in the middle of your shot. Play continues (i.e., does not stop just because the ball moved spontaneously) unless the ball drops into a pocket 5 or more seconds after your opponents shot is complete (i.e., all balls have stopped moving after his shot).

Also, why should your opponent believe that it was 100% certain that you would have made the shot if the ball didn't move? And, even though you said you didn't bump the table and had witnesses, you probably touched the table with your hand when you shot. And, when I put my hand on the crappy bar tables I play on, the cloth/felt is loose and always moves a little -- so that could have caused it. A mild earthquake? Who knows for sure what happened?

As for the sportsmanship angle. Kudos to you for your sense of sportsmanship. I tend to mirror people and, if we were playing and I was previously aware of your concept of sportsmanship, I probably would have let you reshoot the shot (if no referee was watching to make a ruling). If I didn't know you and no referee was present, I'd defer to the person running the tournament. If I didn't like you for whatever reason (say being a poor sport in my opinion during past play), you could argue your case till the cows came home.

Unfortunately, during a TOURNAMENT rules are rules (and the BCA rules are all objective versus being subjective). So, if there was a referee present watching the game, then I'd guess that they would rule in favor of your opponent and your opponent's (perceived lack of) sportsmanship (based on your subjective opinion) would have nothing to do with the referee's ruling. And, if no referee was present, why would you argue for a different ruling based on your (subjective) view of sportsmanship?

As for fun/casual play I'd probably just laugh my a$$ off and let you do whatever you wanted.
 
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As for the sportsmanship angle. Kudos to you for your sense of sportsmanship. I tend to mirror people and if we were playing and I was previously aware of your concept of sportsmanship I probably would have let you reshoot the shot (if no referee was watching to make a ruling). If I didn't know you and no referee was present, I'd defer to the person running the tournament.

My opponent was also the Tournament Director.

Needless to say, I won't be playing there again. I regularly play
in other tournaments where common decency prefails (and, the
equipment is good).
 
Seems to me from the rule above that "it is considered a normal hazard of play". End of discussion regarding a rule interpretation.

Don't know what rules the above are based on.

The ones I posted are from the latest World Standardized Rules available from the WPA. I think they should be the same as the BCA's copy of the World Standardized Rules (effective Jan '08), available here:

http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54

Also, why should your opponent believe that it was 100% certain that you would have made the shot if the ball didn't move?

I don't think it's necessary to know that. For example, say you were about to attempt a 90 degree cut with both balls frozen on oppose rails, and some one came up behind you and bumped your cue making you miscue. You'd be entitled to have the ball(s) replaced due to outside interference.

Maybe a bigger problem, is what if you get bumped but you make it? :eek: Does your opponent have the right to make you shoot again because your shot was affected by "outside assistance"? :confused: :D

And, even though you said you didn't bump the table and had witnesses, you probably touched the table with your hand when you shot. And, when I put my hand on the crappy bar tables I play on, the cloth/felt is loose and always moves a little -- so that could have caused it. A mild earthquake? Who knows for sure what happened?

Yeah that's really the crux of the whole problem. If it was the shooter bumping the table that caused it to move, the rules say he's stuck. If it was a mild earthquake, then it's outside interference (isn't it? Act of God?). If that's the case then he's entitled to restore.

Situations like these make me glad I'm not a TD.
 
Official BCAPL response

The ruling in BCAPL play (unfortunately for the shooter) is: bad luck. Play on. I believe that the ruling in WPA is the same, but will defer to them for a positive statement.

The current citation in BCAPL is Rule 1.49.1, Balls Settling or Moving: "If a ball settles or move by itself, it will be left in the position it assumed and play continues."

The current citation in WPA (as noted by Cuebacca) is Rule 1.7, Balls Settling: "A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back."

Although neither rules set currently explicitly addresses the situation at hand (ball settling but not falling into a pocket while you are shooting at it) the historical interpretation has been: bad luck, play on.

The issue has been presented to the BCAPL National Office, and they are, after initial discussion, in agreement. It will be considered again during the final review of the 2009-2010 edition of the BCAPL Rules, but I do not anticipate a change. Whichever way they land, the exact situation will be specifically addressed and a positive ruling will be in place, either as an Applied Ruling or as a new portion of Rule 1.49.1.

It might also be noted (again, as Cuebacca did) that there could be a perceived discrepancy between that ruling and the ruling when a settling ball falls into a pocket as you are shooting at it. In that case, under BCAPL and WPA rules, the ball is usually replaced or there is another remedy available. However, there is a reasonable rationale for a different ruling when the event takes place without the ball falling.

First and foremost, a ball falling into a pocket is an undoubtedly quantifiable event. A ball settling slightly (or even a little more than slightly) is not. Not to impugn anyone's observation skills in any way, but if there were a dispute after the fact and another player said "no, I did not see it settle", the simple fact of the matter is that there is no way the movement can be verified. If it cannot be positively determined, it cannot be enforced.

Secondly, the event cannot be truly enforced equally across the board in all circumstances. Consider: you are playing 9-Ball. early in the game, the 2-ball is close to a pocket. After missing the 1-ball on a hard shot, another ball is tracking towards the 2-ball and preparing to strike it , but not at an angle that would pocket it. All of a sudden, the 2-ball settles and shifts to a position that causes it to be pocketed. Are you going to turn down the shot and replay the game? Not likely. The initial reaction of most people is going to be "wow - that was lucky".

Although it is the same principle in that example as in the OP's 8-ball shot, it is not uncommon for players to want to attach a different principle to a late-game or game-winning ball shot. It is natural, since the injustice is perceived to be greater. However, in this case you would be hard pressed to rationalize treating the two shots differently.

Finally, as Woody observes, there is no guarantee that the shot would have been made had the settling not occurred. (By the way Woody, it's time for a new book! :D). Cuebacca observes that it might not be important, but then again it might be. Cuebacca's example, however departs into the world of interference, as do many other observations in the thread. Interference is an entirely different matter. The interference rules are written to account for non-player human interruptions or severe outside equipment contingencies (lights falling, etc.). The simple fact that there is a rule addressing balls settling indicates that interference is not applicable.

On a side note, despite the fact that OP states that the movement was caused by a fault in the table, under BCAPL and most other sets of rules, the equipment's condition was accepted once the game began and cannot be used as a reason to replay the specific shot.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee (WOW!! very humbled to be promoted :grin: )
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rul...2/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
The current citation in WPA (as noted by Cuebacca) is Rule 1.7, Balls Settling: "A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back."

Although neither rules set currently explicitly addresses the situation at hand (ball settling but not falling into a pocket while you are shooting at it) the historical interpretation has been: bad luck, play on.

Agreed on this, balls are not moved back and the shot is not played again. Table imperfections are not considered as outside interference either. It was just that you were extremely unlucky.

Mikko - EPBF official referee
 
the best reason why you dont get to shoot it over is that when it happened if you had made the eight you would have taken the win. you cant have it both ways.
 
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