Ruling please

1ab

1ab

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
VNEA league 8-ball...player A breaks and scratches. Opponent takes BIH in the kitchen and calls the 2 (which is not in the kitchen) and calls safe at the same time. Player A contends at that point you cannot claim solids or stripes. Opponent says he's establishing his group and giving up his turn. What's the call?
 
You can't do both.. Safety play is only giving up next shot. If u call a ball you got to continue to shoot
 
1ab said:
VNEA league 8-ball...player A breaks and scratches. Opponent takes BIH in the kitchen and calls the 2 (which is not in the kitchen) and calls safe at the same time. Player A contends at that point you cannot claim solids or stripes. Opponent says he's establishing his group and giving up his turn. What's the call?
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Hm.. the ruling for picking your group is the first one you make with a legal shot. The question is, is calling a safe count the same as pocketing a ball. I don't know if the rules specifically differentiate between a "called shot" and a "called safe" but I would not count that as a group selection, the table would be open. It would allow manipulation of the game to allow a safe to count as a made shot. If you miss a ball, you turn over the table to the opponent but it's not ball in hand. A Miss does not allow you to pick your group. If you call a safe, you are once again turning the table over to your opponent as it ends your turn, the result of the shot is the same, therefore a called safety is basically a controlled missed shot, in my eyes at least.

And as the poster above said you can't call a ball in pocket and call a safe at the same time, just like you can''t call two different balls on one shot. This may be a more valid point especially if you view a safe as a "controlled miss".
 
A ball pocketed on a called safe is not a legally pocketed ball, therefore it can't be used to establish a group.

Loss of turn; table still open.
 
Just read the rules.

Under VNEA rules it would be a legal determination of solids/stripes and a discontinuation of turn. See their rules:

C. ...The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.


E. ...2. Each player continues to shoot so long as he legally pockets any of his object balls (Exception: calling a safety).


G. ... “SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

H. FOULING. All fouls must be called and acknowledged before next shot is taken. (exception: scratching) The following results in fouls: 1. Failure to make a legal shot as noted above..



Also, DURING the game you can clearly call safe and pocket a ball. So why should the first shot after the break be different? Makes no sense if it doesn't apply during the whole game. Only in 9-ball do you HAVE to keep shooting if you pocket a ball.

-td
 
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It seems to me that playing safe and legally pocketing a ball can occur in the same shot so it would be permissible.

If the pocketed ball was not permissible in determining stripes or solids, then it would cloud the issue on whether a safety shot that pockets a ball was a legal shot as we already know it is.
 
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td873 said:
Just read the rules.

Under VNEA rules it would be a legal determination of solids/stripes and a discontinuation of turn. See their rules:

C. ...The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.


E. ...2. Each player continues to shoot so long as he legally pockets any of his object balls (Exception: calling a safety).


G. ... “SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

H. FOULING. All fouls must be called and acknowledged before next shot is taken. (exception: scratching) The following results in fouls: 1. Failure to make a legal shot as noted above..



Also, DURING the game you can clearly call safe and pocket a ball. So why should the first shot after the break be different? Makes no sense if it doesn't apply during the whole game. Only in 9-ball do you HAVE to keep shooting if you pocket a ball.

-td
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I don't know if the rules show that it's a legal way of doing this, it's a legal shot yes, because you don't give up ball in hand. But it's not a "called shot" which is what is needed to call your group. You are calling a safe, not the shot in the pocket. You don't say "I call 4 in the corner and a safety", you just call the safe, and shoot the 4 in. Just like you can't call the 4 in the side and a 2 down the corner if both look like they will go. A jump shot when you hit a ball but don't pocket anything is also a "legal shot" but does not count towards you picking a group.
 
rrick33 said:
It seems to me that playing safe and legally pocketing a ball can occur in the same shot so it would be permissible.

If the pocketed ball was not permissible in determining stripes or solids, then it would cloud the issue on whether a safety shot that pockets a ball was a legal shot as we already know it is.
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Legally pocketing a ball is not the same thing as calling the ball and pocket during the shot which is what you need to do in order to claim a group as yours. The called shot is a safety, not the pocketing of the ball. Just because it's legal to pocket a ball in 8 ball on a safety does not make that ball pocketed a called shot on that ball. I'm not a trained ref or in that league, but from thinking about how some other called shots work, calling a safe should not allow you to claim a group as you are not calling and legally pocketing a ball, you are only pocketing a ball as a side effect of a safety call.

The correct, at least to me, call here is it's an open table if the first shot was a safety. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
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Like I said, just read the rules:

C. ...The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.


D. GAME. In Call Pocket, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated.


G. “SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball


An "obviously" pocketed ball is still a called ball, whether it is a safety or not. And a called ball is a called ball, whether it is a safety or not.

The rules are pretty clear...

-td
 
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It all depends on if I won the previous game. If I did, I break down my cue, put it in my case and walk over and whisper to him (in a Jerry Stiller sort of way), "it felt good beating you the last game...But it feels better knowing that you'll never have the chance of beating me, Jerk off..." that's what I woulda done.... well that's what I have done lol...
 
Legally pocketing a ball is not the same thing as calling the ball and pocket during the shot which is what you need to do in order to claim a group as yours.
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Actually, I think it is. It is either a legal shot, or a foul. If not a foul, it is properly played - even if it is a safety.

General Rules: 2. POCKETED BALLS. A ball is considered as a pocketed ball if, as a result of an otherwise legal shot, it drops off the bed of the table into the pocket and remains there.

Under their rules, only illegally pocketed balls don't count to determine solids/stripes. A safety is not illegal.

(Also, by your logic, a player could call a safety after the break, shoot in a stripe, and if their opponent misses, they can then take solids. That would be improper.)

-td
 
This scenario gives the shooter the best of both worlds, no way could it be legal.
You can interpret the rules all sorts of ways, but without pocketing a ball to determine who is stripes or solids, a safety leaves the table still open.
 
He's wrong. The side has not been established until AFTER a ball is legally pocketed.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

1ab said:
VNEA league 8-ball...player A breaks and scratches. Opponent takes BIH in the kitchen and calls the 2 (which is not in the kitchen) and calls safe at the same time. Player A contends at that point you cannot claim solids or stripes. Opponent says he's establishing his group and giving up his turn. What's the call?
Click to expand...
 
I had this happen to me at state. I can't remember if it was bca or vnea but the ref called it A good shot and i had to play the ball as it lied. The ref explained it like it was said before if it were 9 ball he would have to continue. But it is possible to play safe as a called pocketed shot in 8ball.
 
it was on the test

I went to Vegas last spring to test out in Ref School(VNEA). This was one of the test questions. td873 is correct! Yes you can. A safety is a legal shot.
 
This is another situation where the one who knows the rules has the advantage. Other groups may write the rules differently. And whether you agree with it or not, the rules are the rules.

-td
 
This was covered - and beat to death - in a fairly recent thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880&highlight=vnea

For those interested, it contains a lengthy post by me (#20) that clears up some questions vis-a-vis the inevitable questions that are about to appear, namely those about the relationships between the various rule sets and how the VNEA probably got to where they are concerning this ruling...

And yes, as others have already noted, per the letter of VNEA rules it is a legal shot and claims the group.

B
 
1ab,

I beat this topic to death multiple times on here. I would think you had enough of this topic.

Here's the 'AZ Synopsis' of previous discussions:

1. Logically, 'safety' should be a call and, as such, cannot be combined with another call.
2. While every other rule set makes this clear, VNEA does not.
3. VNEA plays this as legal at the national level.
4. Some people on here think this makes sense, and they rank high in ref circles.

Now go out and enjoy playing 'make-safes' on league night. If you can't beat 'em...

-s
 
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