Ruling

I

i need somethin

i SeEn It... hE nEeDs It
Silver Member
if player A has a 2 9 combination and as hes measuring up the shot he accidently touches the 2 ball with his tip does player two get ball in hand????

were playing cueball fouls only.

be it as it may... if its any combination and he does that is it still a foul???

i heard that if the ferrule hit the 2 ball player b has the option of putting it back.

we figured that if you move the ball that you need to shoot at its a foul. whats the actuall call in this scenerio.
 
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from what i understand, if its CUE ball fouls ONLY, no matter what touched it (cue or hand) then the opponent (Player B) always has the option to leave the ball as it lays or re-position to most accurate, previous position. Then the offender Player A) has the shot still.

Not 100 percent sure but i thought id give your thread an answer.
 
Bora said:
from what i understand, if its CUE ball fouls ONLY, no matter what touched it (cue or hand) then the opponent (Player B) always has the option to leave the ball as it lays or re-position to most accurate, previous position. Then the offender Player A) has the shot still.

Not 100 percent sure but i thought id give your thread an answer.
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I believe you are correct.
 
Bora said:
from what i understand, if its CUE ball fouls ONLY, no matter what touched it (cue or hand) then the opponent (Player B) always has the option to leave the ball as it lays or re-position to most accurate, previous position. Then the offender Player A) has the shot still.

Not 100 percent sure but i thought id give your thread an answer.
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Yep, that's the rule. The fact that there was a combination being lined up doesn't matter; the 2 ball never legally counts as the cue ball.

-Andrew
 
What????

i need somethin said:
if player A has a 2 9 combination and as hes measuring up the shot he accidently touches the 2 ball with his tip does player two get ball in hand????

were playing cueball fouls only.

be it as it may... if its any combination and he does that is it still a foul???

i heard that if the ferrule hit the 2 ball player b has the option of putting it back.

we figured that if you move the ball that you need to shoot at its a foul. whats the actuall call in this scenerio.
Click to expand...

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO ASK THIS Q???? IF YOU TOUCH ANY BALL WITH TIP 'FOUL' SHOOT YOUR HOLDING UP THE GAME!!!!:confused::confused::confused:
 
My Worse Case Sererio

To start this, it is cue ball fouls only league. My friend is shooting the 1 ball right after the break. He wants to stop the cue ball to shoot the 2 and break out a up a tough grouping for later in the rack. He goes to the 1 ball to see how his next shot on the 2 will look. Temporary loose of focus or sanity, not sure which, he shoots the 1 ball into the 2, makes the 2 and the 1 ball goes over and breaks out the tough bunching.
The opponents are all up in the air, yells of; foul, ball in hand, what do we do now, it all comes out. They are even more upset when I tell them it is not a foul and the table is supposed to put back the way it was as closely as possible and it is still my friends shot.
We check with 3 long time players, 2 of which are on the rules and bylaws committee. All three of them say the same thing. Put them back and it is still the players shoot with no foul.
Of course I laughed, I am there to have a good time and that was a lot of fun to watch.
 
I'm glad I don't have these problem. Everybody I play with in Asia plays all fouls all the time. They don't even know about cue ball only fouls and that is how it should be.
 
lol flettir.. .that's awesome. I woulda tried for the "flagrant foul" rule or whatever that says they did something intentionally to ruin the game and it should be called loss of game. They have a rule like that right? Or was it something like "if stuff gets so disturbed that players are unable to recreate the shot then the game is called a wash and you rerack and start again"? That can't be right either because that'd be open for abuse.
 
Flettir said:
To start this, it is cue ball fouls only league. My friend is shooting the 1 ball right after the break. He wants to stop the cue ball to shoot the 2 and break out a up a tough grouping for later in the rack. He goes to the 1 ball to see how his next shot on the 2 will look. Temporary loose of focus or sanity, not sure which, he shoots the 1 ball into the 2, makes the 2 and the 1 ball goes over and breaks out the tough bunching.
The opponents are all up in the air, yells of; foul, ball in hand, what do we do now, it all comes out. They are even more upset when I tell them it is not a foul and the table is supposed to put back the way it was as closely as possible and it is still my friends shot.
We check with 3 long time players, 2 of which are on the rules and bylaws committee. All three of them say the same thing. Put them back and it is still the players shoot with no foul.
Of course I laughed, I am there to have a good time and that was a lot of fun to watch.
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Actually, this is a foul even under cueball fouls only.
 
I believe that unless he "intentionally"(term used lightly) hit the one, guessing his arm had a spasm,pocketing the two, it is still not ball in hand. If he intentionally did it, then that is under the sportsmanship rule and the incoming player receives ball in hand and places the balls back as he thought they were. I haven't looked at a rule book in quite a while, so I could be off a bit in my understanding in the exact rule.
 
ykndoit said:
I believe that unless he "intentionally"(term used lightly) hit the one, guessing his arm had a spasm,pocketing the two, it is still not ball in hand. If he intentionally did it, then that is under the sportsmanship rule and the incoming player receives ball in hand and places the balls back as he thought they were. I haven't looked at a rule book in quite a while, so I could be off a bit in my understanding in the exact rule.
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This is always a foul.

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
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Official BCAPL response

In BCAPL play:

For the OP's situation as stated: the 2-ball is a disturbed ball. Player B has the option to leave the 2-ball where it comes to rest or to have it restored to its original position. Player A shoots after Player B makes the decision. BCAPL Rule 1.33 applies.

To Flettir's situation: Foul. No need to extract, deduce or interpret - BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.19 Situation 1 applies:

"Situation: Player A mistakes an object ball for the cue ball and shoots a shot with the object ball acting as the cue ball.

Ruling: Foul. Penalties in accordance with the General Rules and specific game rules. Unless otherwise stated in specific game rules, Player B accepts the object balls in position."

For the other three overdue answers I still have hanging out there I sincerely apologize for the delay. We're trying to get the next edition to press and I have been totally snowed under. Third time's the charm, Jude - I PROMISE all three answers this weekend. :rolleyes:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
by direction of the BCAPL National Office
 
Just for giggles, lets say the person didn't mistake the 2 ball for the cue ball and was just lining up a combo/carom and "accidentally" hit the 2ball causing it to pocket a ball. Since, this wasn't his intended shot, and the cue ball wasn't in motion and the cue ball didn't move, how would the rules apply to this situation? I understand that after the cue ball is in motion and you move another ball by hand,shirt, or stick and it is struck by another ball in motion or goes into the path of a ball in motion or is moved from a position that would have pathed through the balls previous spot, THEN it would be a ball in hand foul. I know we are splitting hairs, but JUST IN CASE this would ever happen, I'd like to know the answer.

A similar situation happened to me and our league director said that it was not a ball in hand foul but to just reposition the balls as close to thier prior position could be established.
 
You guys should know, that even in cue ball fouls only, there are some exceptions. If a moved ball did, or would have impeded the cueball, or object ball, ie, the path of said balls, this is also a foul. There are actually a few situations in cue ball fouls only that are fouls without touching the cueball.
 
I agree w/ you. I am just stating that there is a fine line between accidental and non-accidental movement of object balls. And that is what the ruling states.

So, hypathetically speaking, you could trip and fall over your stick while walking to the table, land on the table, move every ball but the cue ball and (as the rules states) it still wouldn't be ball in hand.
 
It depends on the rules of the league.

If it is a CB foul only. Then it is no foul. Some rules state that you put the ball back before and some after the shot and others may state that your opponent puts the ball back before and some after after the shot. Some may say it is totally up to your opponent. Naturally if I was the opponent I would want to put it back to the original location only if it benefited me and or made it harder on the shooter.

I play in one league where it is CB foul with BIH and you lose your turn if you touch another ball but it is not BIH for doing so. I used that rule to my advantage a few times. The last time was when my opponent had me hooked with the CB frozen against his ball. I intentionally touched his ball and lost my turn. Being a dummy he called the foul. He was now stuck with being frozen against his ball and not having a good shot on any of his balls. I think that that is one of the dumbest rules around.
 
Official BCAPL response

ykndoit said:
I know we are splitting hairs, but JUST IN CASE this would ever happen, I'd like to know the answer.
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Perfectly alright. Splitting hairs my specialty.:smile: Or, more accurately, helping to determine when they should be split and when not. Please notice the "helping". At BCAPL the refs enforce the rules - we don't make or interpret them.

ykndoit said:
Just for giggles, lets say the person didn't mistake the 2 ball for the cue ball and was just lining up a combo/carom and "accidentally" hit the 2ball causing it to pocket a ball. Since, this wasn't his intended shot, and the cue ball wasn't in motion and the cue ball didn't move, how would the rules apply to this situation?
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BCAPL settled this for you in the first edition of their rules in 2007. The decision was made at that time to limit "accidental movement" to a single ball. BCAPL Rule 1.17 applies. So in your situation, since two balls were involved, it would be a foul regardless of intent. The offended player would have ball in hand with the object balls in position. If the pocketed ball were the game-winning ball it woul be loss of game. The wording in the 2009-2010 edition of the BCAPL RUle Book has been clarified to emphasize the loss of game provision.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee (WOW!! very humbled to be promoted :grin: )
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rul...2/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
ykndoit said:
Just for giggles, lets say the person didn't mistake the 2 ball for the cue ball and was just lining up a combo/carom and "accidentally" hit the 2ball causing it to pocket a ball. Since, this wasn't his intended shot, and the cue ball wasn't in motion and the cue ball didn't move, how would the rules apply to this situation? I understand that after the cue ball is in motion and you move another ball by hand,shirt, or stick and it is struck by another ball in motion or goes into the path of a ball in motion or is moved from a position that would have pathed through the balls previous spot, THEN it would be a ball in hand foul. I know we are splitting hairs, but JUST IN CASE this would ever happen, I'd like to know the answer.

A similar situation happened to me and our league director said that it was not a ball in hand foul but to just reposition the balls as close to thier prior position could be established.
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Truthfully, the rule book isn't going to cover every single bizarre situation that may occur. If you move an object ball even in a cue-ball-bouls-only event, you are pretty much at the whim of the tournament director. Yes, there are scenarios where the object ball(s) will be restored but sometimes, you're going to have a foul called on you. You should be careful no matter what the rules are. The cue-ball-fouls-only rule is there to try to make rulings easier so that referees are not constantly called over to determine whether or not an object ball was touched. If you move more than one object ball, you're giving a referee a lot of ammo. Instead of trying to come up with every scenario where you may be right, you should focus on making sure you're never wrong and the only way to do that is to not touch a single ball.
 
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