Rumors about the WPBA

Hey Mr ATLAS SHRUGGED, I think your almost right. What do you think about an organization riddled with regulation and red tape? What is your opinion about women playing in the us open? Totaly awesome that they let Ayn Rand write books like the men could.

Congratulations, I'm glad you can READ. I have absolutely no problem with the women playing in the US Open, and I doubt most of the top level men could care either. Realistically, maybe only 4 women alive have a chance of winning, and that's a slim chance at best, and the worlds best players, men and women, know this. I can't comment on why that is, I agree pool should be able to be played equally as well by any gender, it just isn't yet at the top levels.

There are plenty of events that women are welcome to play in with the men. I have no idea why the Open excluded women for years, I suspect part of it was that up until a few years ago, not many women were that interested in playing in it anyway. I see no problem with Barry deciding to keep the Open limited to men only, it's his event and he can do what he wants.

As well with the WPBA, they are for women and thats the way they want it. I do not know about all their regulation and red tape, as I am not a member. I do know that if the women agree to the rules when they join, then that is their choice. I do suspect that the WPBA traditionally didnt want the women to play alongside the women in order to not remove the veil and expose the large gap in talent that would become evident if allowed. The WPBA did this in it's best interest, which some consider smart and some do not. Either way, it's their choice and if you join their league you agree to their rules. So if you don't like, just don't join.

And yes, it is totally awesome that Ayn Rand wrote books like the men could, although I don't think she ever asked permission, as you imply she was "let" (ie, allowed) to write like the men. Why is everything so gender based with you? Her books are great in and of themselves, why does it matter they were written by a women? If a man had written them, would they be any better or worse? Would you have commented on that then, as if the gender of an author makes a book good or bad?
 
Mr John Galt, the reason i started this thread was because Johnnyt and others said that the wpba wouldnt let its players play in the open. This is to ask why they did that and to insinuate that maybe the WPBA is just as much to blame for this gap in mens and womens pool as the us open.

Sorry, guess I was writing my last message while you posted this.

I do not think the WPBA is to blame for the gap that exists between men and women, for that I would blame genetics. I do think they do their best to prevent this gap from being well-known, in order to enhance and elevate the perception of the quality of play exhibited.

I am not saying there are not some extremely talented and great women on the tour, but comparing the overall top levels of play is not much of a comparison. The WPBA is filled with women that don't have a chance winning a WPBA event, much less winning a mixed-gender filled event. Most WPBA events are consistently won by the same handful of women, and those women are far ahead of many in the field. And that is not being sexist, it is just a fact. Down the line things may (and hopefully will) change, unfortunately it is just that way now.

I'm sure you will have lots of angry comments for me now.
 
So the only events that the WPBA sanctions are events that only ladies can play in? So in theory the WPBA can keep all of their members from playing any open events? How does this rule benefit pool or the WPBA?

it does make sense if you think about it
 
Past is the past. Got it. Today women are allowed to compete in the open. It may be ten years before any of them win or even make the money. I agree that private business should be able to do what ever they want and its members can do as they like. Businesses and organizations get criticized all the time and I'm sure because of that they run more efficiently and make more money in the long run.
Did your first post insinuate that I had an opinion about something and found that the logic was flawed and was back peddling? My opinion is and always was that the US open and now the WPBA were bad and discriminatory for some pool players for 30 some odd years. Anyone that wants to dispute that is wrong. Maybe its not fun to think poorly of an event that people have loved for so long, but that doesn't make it OK. I'm not the one who made the rules. I'm just the one speaking about them. Its funny how we all agree that the women should be able to play. I'm just saying that they should have been able to decades ago.
 
Sorry, guess I was writing my last message while you posted this.

I do not think the WPBA is to blame for the gap that exists between men and women, for that I would blame genetics. I do think they do their best to prevent this gap from being well-known, in order to enhance and elevate the perception of the quality of play exhibited.

I am not saying there are not some extremely talented and great women on the tour, but comparing the overall top levels of play is not much of a comparison. The WPBA is filled with women that don't have a chance winning a WPBA event, much less winning a mixed-gender filled event. Most WPBA events are consistently won by the same handful of women, and those women are far ahead of many in the field. And that is not being sexist, it is just a fact. Down the line things may (and hopefully will) change, unfortunately it is just that way now.

I'm sure you will have lots of angry comments for me now.

Im not writing this with anger. what do you think the ratio of male players to female players is in the general population? 1:20, 1:100? 1:5?
 
My opinion is and always was that the US open and now the WPBA were bad and discriminatory for some pool players for 30 some odd years. Anyone that wants to dispute that is wrong.


No, they are not wrong. Just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean they are wrong.

The WPBA is the WOMENS Professional Billiards Association. If a group of women want to get together and form their own group and have their own events, why is this wrong?

And 30 years ago, far fewer women were playing pool, so it wasn't really an issue. You may have heard of Jean Balukas, one of the best women to ever play. She was allowed in mixed events, and played in many (from what I hear). She played because she was competitive and had a chance. I'm assuming you weren't a part of the scene 30 years ago, women weren't beating down the doors trying to play, and if any women did want to play, I don't think many men were stopping them. An entry fee is an entry fee, a body is a player. If the player is a weak player, why would anyone care? And yes, I mean men and women, because plenty of men entered events with no chance at winning too.

This is a hot topic lately because of Barrys "announcement" he was allowing women, but it really hasn't been an issue for 30 years, women have not been discriminated against as you seem to think. Women didn't play in mixed events primarily because they didn't want to.


All things considered, women (as a collective group of poolplayers) have come along far in the last 15 years, who knows what could happen in the next 15... things are definitely improving across the board, which is a good thing for us all.
 
Im not writing this with anger. what do you think the ratio of male players to female players is in the general population? 1:20, 1:100? 1:5?

I really have no idea, that would be interesting to know. The general population is roughly 1:1, so I would guess the poolplayer group is probably somewhere around 15:1

Again, strictly a guess, but most poolrooms I have personally have been in have roughly 15 guys playing around for every 1 woman playing... And as far as players who take the game seriously, the number may even be 30:1 or higher. Of course, this number could vary greatly from location to location, I'm just guessing... What do you think it may be?
 
also why are we comparing Jasmin or Jeannie to SVB or Reyes? why is SVB better than 99.99% of other men pool players? they are all men. Lets say the ratio of pool players of men to women is 1:100 to make it easy to do the math. that is comparing the skill levels of 6400 people 64 people. Im sure you will find a lot more skill in the group of 6400 people. Is it really genetics?
Again lets look at this a bit different. Say you have a pool tour comprised of black men aged 20 -25 and you took the best 64 in the state of Idaho. You take the top ten on that tour and put them in the us open. Then if none of them win or make the money you say its genetics? How did genetics come into play with Jasmin and Cohen in straight pool? How about with all the women who have ever beaten a man. Hell, I'm number one in my mixed league. (very open league and its only been a few weeks)
 
No, they are not wrong. Just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean they are wrong.

The WPBA is the WOMENS Professional Billiards Association. If a group of women want to get together and form their own group and have their own events, why is this wrong?

And 30 years ago, far fewer women were playing pool, so it wasn't really an issue. You may have heard of Jean Balukas, one of the best women to ever play. She was allowed in mixed events, and played in many (from what I hear). She played because she was competitive and had a chance. I'm assuming you weren't a part of the scene 30 years ago, women weren't beating down the doors trying to play, and if any women did want to play, I don't think many men were stopping them. An entry fee is an entry fee, a body is a player. If the player is a weak player, why would anyone care? And yes, I mean men and women, because plenty of men entered events with no chance at winning too.

This is a hot topic lately because of Barrys "announcement" he was allowing women, but it really hasn't been an issue for 30 years, women have not been discriminated against as you seem to think. Women didn't play in mixed events primarily because they didn't want to.


All things considered, women (as a collective group of poolplayers) have come along far in the last 15 years, who knows what could happen in the next 15... things are definitely improving across the board, which is a good thing for us all.

Im not disputing that women would win or would not win the us open. We can never know this so Im not wasting my time arguing it. BUT why go out of your way to make a specific rule to not allow them? It took deliberate effort to impliment that rule. Why close the door on them for that long? I hope it never happens again. Maybe that is why I wont shut up. Balukas beat McCready 11-3. No one can say she didnt have a chance to win it back then.
 
also why are we comparing Jasmin or Jeannie to SVB or Reyes? why is SVB better than 99.99% of other men pool players? they are all men. Lets say the ratio of pool players of men to women is 1:100 to make it easy to do the math. that is comparing the skill levels of 6400 people 64 people. Im sure you will find a lot more skill in the group of 6400 people. Is it really genetics?
Again lets look at this a bit different. Say you have a pool tour comprised of black men aged 20 -25 and you took the best 64 in the state of Idaho. You take the top ten on that tour and put them in the us open. Then if none of them win or make the money you say its genetics? How did genetics come into play with Jasmin and Cohen in straight pool? How about with all the women who have ever beaten a man. Hell, I'm number one in my mixed league. (very open league and its only been a few weeks)


I am not comparing Jasmine or Jeanie to SVB or Efren specifically, where did I say that? I am comparing the overall skill levels at the top of each gender, and there is a gap at the overall levels. Yes, there are always exceptions, such as Shane, Efren, Jasmine, or Jeanie. I am not judging or basing this on any specific reason such as gender. I don't know why the gap exists, merely that it does. In a race to 100, I do not think any woman will beat Efren or Shane. Or many top men for that matter. Throw in any top male player you choose, even many 2nd tier top male players. In a long race, say to 100, I would always bet on the guy playing. I do not have a reason as to why this is, it just is. I am not saying men are better than women strictly by the nature of being men, this is where you seem to take offense. You are assuming I think they will be better strictly because they are men, but I am saying they will win because, for whatever reason, they are better players.

Your whole example with the black players from Idaho is skewed, and I won't comment on that now. There could be a whole slew of reasons to explain why (and if) none of them cashed in the open. Throwing it all under the umbrella of genetics is a false argument.

And again, I have never said a woman could not beat a man, it happens all the time... My point of contention is at the upper levels. And if you do not think there exists a gap at the upper levels (for whatever reason:genetics, geography, upbringing, opportunities to play at an early age, social engineering), then I do not think you have been around this game long enough to argue this point validly.
 
No, they are not wrong. Just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean they are wrong.

The WPBA is the WOMENS Professional Billiards Association. If a group of women want to get together and form their own group and have their own events, why is this wrong?

And 30 years ago, far fewer women were playing pool, so it wasn't really an issue. You may have heard of Jean Balukas, one of the best women to ever play. She was allowed in mixed events, and played in many (from what I hear). She played because she was competitive and had a chance. I'm assuming you weren't a part of the scene 30 years ago, women weren't beating down the doors trying to play, and if any women did want to play, I don't think many men were stopping them. An entry fee is an entry fee, a body is a player. If the player is a weak player, why would anyone care? And yes, I mean men and women, because plenty of men entered events with no chance at winning too.

This is a hot topic lately because of Barrys "announcement" he was allowing women, but it really hasn't been an issue for 30 years, women have not been discriminated against as you seem to think. Women didn't play in mixed events primarily because they didn't want to.


All things considered, women (as a collective group of poolplayers) have come along far in the last 15 years, who knows what could happen in the next 15... things are definitely improving across the board, which is a good thing for us all.

Who is john galt, I think you are generalizing a very large group of people over a very long period of time. In those 30 years, 1 woman may have wanted to play. Also the reason I brought up Ayn Rand and her being allowed to write and publish a book despite being a woman is kinda along the same lines. Image her living in a country and we call that country an event. That country (event) doesn't allow her to write that book because she was a woman. No one was allowed to sell her the paper or pen and if she was caught she would be jailed. That country (event) would be worse off as an organization because of that decision. Your saying she just wrote that book and no one had to let her. What if Jeannie just played in the open in 1985. Oh wait, they wouldn't let her. It was to compare something that was a bit closer to you so maybe you could see it from a different angle. I dont read books based on the gender of people.
 
Sorry, guess I was writing my last message while you posted this.

I do not think the WPBA is to blame for the gap that exists between men and women, for that I would blame genetics. I do think they do their best to prevent this gap from being well-known, in order to enhance and elevate the perception of the quality of play exhibited.

I am not saying there are not some extremely talented and great women on the tour, but comparing the overall top levels of play is not much of a comparison. The WPBA is filled with women that don't have a chance winning a WPBA event, much less winning a mixed-gender filled event. Most WPBA events are consistently won by the same handful of women, and those women are far ahead of many in the field. And that is not being sexist, it is just a fact. Down the line things may (and hopefully will) change, unfortunately it is just that way now.

I'm sure you will have lots of angry comments for me now.

Im sorry john, I thought you meant in your first sentance that you were blaming the difference in men and women poolplayers do to genetics and not just the difference between men and women. My bad. Im sorry.
 
Women playing in open events

Just to remind everyone - we had around a dozen women play in the US OPEN 10-ball in May of this year.

Odd- it did not get near the splash that 'allowing' women to play in the 9- ball got.

Mark griffin,
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
Just to remind everyone - we had around a dozen women play in the US OPEN 10-ball in May of this year.

Odd- it did not get near the splash that 'allowing' women to play in the 9- ball got.

Mark griffin,
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

why should a dozen POOL PLAYERS playing in a pool event be a big deal? I get it. There are a lot of people on AZ that dont really care that their peers were discriminated against in the biggest most prestigious pool event of the year for over 30 years. Got it.
 
They have sanctioned WC events their members have been invited to. I guess, in theory, the WPBA does have control over which events it will allow its members to attend, however the only times I have heard of the WPBA not sanctioning an event is when it conflicts with a WPBA Tour event.

I also believe that the WPBA charges a significant fee for sanctioning. A lot of promoters may feel it's an unnecessary expense considering the number of WPBA players who would enter.
 
Im sorry john, I thought you meant in your first sentance that you were blaming the difference in men and women poolplayers do to genetics and not just the difference between men and women. My bad. Im sorry.

Yes, the difference between men and women is genetics. Look down between your legs, we have different parts. It's genetics. Not the WPBA's fault.

As to why the skill levels may vary, I don't know what causes this. But, yes, we are different.
 
Say you have a pool tour comprised of black men aged 20 -25 and you took the best 64 in the state of Idaho.

Hell, I'm number one in my mixed league. (very open league and its only been a few weeks)

first , no all-black pool tour has ever been successful in that state , simply because no self-respecting black male wants the winners title : Mr. I-Da-Ho !

Congratulations on your achievement - but can you carry it through for the full session ?
You promised OTB that you would never join the WPBA - care to try your luck on one of the open regional tours (Ozone , East Coast , Lone Star , etc . . .) ? Not knockin' your ability . . .just wonderin' if you can make your own case ?
 
Thoughts

Hello,

I check in from time to time on the forums and more often than not, I want to respond, but because of my more recent (last three years) association with the WPBA (former board member, now chair of Strategic Partners and Production Committees), I’ve felt that my communiqué on a public forum was not appropriate. Hopefully the “regulars” view my past posts (in defense of Allison, or something else erroneous), as factual and a reality check. I’m direct, and while I pride myself on being diplomatic, certain issues get my blood flowing.

The internal issues with the WPBA are complex. Firstly, as many of you know, it’s predominantly a volunteer-run organization, which presents many challenges and are too many too expound upon now. Secondly, the structure of the organization (i.e. bylaws, or more importantly, the perception of the bylaws by the members), gives an inaccurate sense of entitlement to the members with regard to certain business decisions (format, field size, prize fund), which causes much of the hoopla that occurs on these forums. In my opinion, 1 and 25 posts actually have a clear understanding of what’s really going on. Most of it is speculation or misinformation that friends have received from players, who think they know, but actually have a subjective view. This isn’t meant to attack the players. It would be impossible (unless they sat in on board calls and spent countless hours running the organization) for them to fully grasp the internal dynamics and struggles the WPBA faces. At its core, it continues to operate like a “mom-and-pop”, very family oriented.

In my opinion, the first and most positive step the WPBA could take is to higher an Executive Director. The WPBA desperately needs leadership, not because others aren’t working tirelessly, but because they are volunteer and the accountability process is unreliable, which isn’t any one person's fault. A non-conflicting ED or management team would make a world of difference in assuring that tasks are being completed and that the vision/mission of the organization is being met.

With that in mind, the second positive step would be to redefine the mission/vision of the WPBA. It’s not the same organization it was 20 years ago, let alone the last five years. The available markets, exposure, player caliber, revenue opportunities, etc. are vastly different and continue to evolve into new initiatives that will require considerable attention to ensure the WPBA remains the leading women’s billiard organization. From my standpoint, the ideal vision/mission is multi-faceted and the direction far exceeds “promoting” events. Like the PGA, LPGA, etc., the WPBA needs to position itself as the premier women’s tour by introducing International and Domestic recognition that is fueled by first-class events, offering unique exposure to its partners, but placing a significant emphasis on its “stars”, programming, and community involvement.

Additionally, the programming and show quality, creativity, content, etc. needs to change, as well. I’ve had the pleasure of traveling to many parts of the World and have witnessed the varying levels of event branding and program editing that goes on for other events including pool and snooker. While the WPBA is mostly known for its ESPN exposure domestically, I can assure you that it reaches 10x more audiences Internationally; therefore, it’s within the best interest of the WPBA to cater to a new kind of market, while at the same time, reinvent itself Domestically. Ideally, the WPBA should seek time-buys or dedicated slots Domestically (i.e. PBA) whereby fans are familiar with when it’s going to be on and statistically we are able to determine the success of shows based on a multitude of variables. At this point (random scheduling), it’s very difficult to know the demographical “trends”, and the WPBA is at the mercy of ESPN’s discretion, which ultimately affects the value of the programming.

Regarding the topic/original thread, all major sports organizations have their members under some contract and those members must abide by certain rules. Every corporation has a similar agreement, parts of which refer to “conflict of interest”… Obvisously, Google doesn’t want its employees sharing new ideas with MS, and vice versa. The problem is that WPBA players aren’t “making-a-living” so the expectation of the rules becomes harder to enforce, but I’m not sure that means that the WPBA needs to relinquish them entirely. I’m not in favor of some of the guidelines given the current state of the WPBA; however, in an ideal business (i.e. profitable for players), I think they are acceptable.

I could go on and on about the many other challenges, including the regional tours, obligations to players, lack of standardized rules globally and the enormous effort it will take to establish this policy worldwide, the economy and securing sponsorship in and out of the industry, etc.

If anyone has a serious concern for the WPBA, i.e. wants to make a difference without complaining, then feel free to contact me (kcarter@wpba.com) for information.

Thanks.
Kristi
 
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wow !

Kristi ,
thanx for an incredible post .
One of the great advantages of this particular forum is that we can be discussing a topic , and someone with unassailable , first-hand knowledge will chime in.
Know that you are appreciated , and keep coming back .



silly little box tells me I've given out too much rep today . I'll remember to send you some green tomorrow !
 
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first , no all-black pool tour has ever been successful in that state , simply because no self-respecting black male wants the winners title : Mr. I-Da-Ho !

Congratulations on your achievement - but can you carry it through for the full session ?
You promised OTB that you would never join the WPBA - care to try your luck on one of the open regional tours (Ozone , East Coast , Lone Star , etc . . .) ? Not knockin' your ability . . .just wondering' if you can make your own case ?
Can I carry it through the season, hope so. Will probably be able to keep it in the top 5. the reason I brought that up was because I misunderstood what john galt wrote and thought he was talking about genetics playing a part in top ladies vs top men players. I was just using it as an example.

My case is that I wont be supporting a organization that feels the need to tell its patrons where they can and cant play. Also not interested in playing in a gender based pool organization. Can I qualify, guess we will never know.
 
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