Running before you can walk, going "too" advanced in your goals???

J

JMASTERJ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok I need a reality check here. I understand that there are many opinions on how to play, how to get better, and how to practice, etc... but I am sure there are some "baseline" foundations that are true near 100% of the time, and some which are highly subjective. So in the answer to this, if you can differentiate which category your answer is, I would much appreciate it and will take it to heart, fact or opinion.

For those of you who haven't read my past couple of posts, I just started played in a league last season, and I am currently rated a 2 in 9 ball. The truth is, my ball striking, spin control and pocketing ability, especially from a distance, is like a 2, no doubt. However, my understanding of the game in every aspect and defensive shot making is more like an 8. The reason I say that is because I have watched MANY pro games, and I basically understand what is the best shot in speed, spin and leave on every single situation except for the most radical where you might need a 3-4 bumper hit off an awesome defense leave. Lets face it, billiards is not theoretical physics or chess. I have also watched many videos on billiards in general. Also, I only play the league matches every week. I do not currently have time to practice any other time, even though I am going to make an effort to practice one more day a week. Before this I had played about once a year for about 20 years. I always loved billiards, but it just wasn't on my priority list in life.

Now that you know my pool background, this is the thing. I have been told by my teammate/friend who is a 4 (and he claims that some of our teammates also think the same) keeps telling me that I need to focus more on making a shot into the hole and stop thinking about positioning and "advanced tactics," whatever that means. Later he tries to teach me how to make a ball by banking the cue ball off the rail first, hit the object, and hole it. :confused:

Another guy who is also a 4 told me something similar, and then he and our 5 tells me when I have ball in hand, never put the cue right in line with the object, always put an angle on it so you can position it better. This 4 also tells me its all about not leaving your opponent a shot, even when you miss.

LMAO ok so call me crazy, but these seem like highly conflicting advice. First I AM actually good at not leaving my opponent a shot because I am good at defense and speed control. In fact when I play seriously, I might actually play as many defense shots as I do holing balls. But these types of advice drive me crazy.

One more thing... I don't take every stats on a piece of paper, but I can pretty much guarantee that most times, I do not do crazy shots that even a pro wouldn't do. And many times because I think of position/proper leave, I am able to hole a few in a row. I think the amount I miss because I try something is much less than the amount I make BECAUSE I play pool "properly."

I don't think they understand that they have hit about 559709709 more balls than I have, and for me, no matter if I add a little draw, top or side, my chances of making a long ball is very small even if I were to hit it dead on with on spin. So in my mind, I rather play defense than try a low percentage shot. Usually against low levels I get ball in hand and its clearly the right move, and against better players, it prevents them from making a ball which can lead to 5 other balls made, or a defensive battle which is highly enjoyable for me.

So tell me, am I the crazy one for wanting to play like this? I mean, I have lost one match in my last 9 vs every player from a 1 to a 7. In fact the only one I lost to was another good 2, and I just didn't play well that game and he played some amazing shots. So I am not understanding this whole "thing"... what is this thing is I am hearing? To me, my solution only lies in hitting thousands more balls and effective practice. I've done that in golf and tennis, the concept is not new to me. I also know that I cannot spend 80 hrs per week on billiards like I did for those two sports in my past. I actually love playing defense, trying more advanced shots, and winning, don't really see anything wrong with this since I feel like I am accomplishing all that AND I am getting better at pocketing some. They have even told me I am getting better. SO WTF? LOL

BTW I see PLENTY of 4's and 5's who make shots much better than me but they seem to have no clue on "how to play" pool. They hit the ball way too hard for no reason, stand up during the hit, play absolutely on position most of the time... I guess I am just not understanding league pool. If you put in all that time shooting balls, how could you not know "how to play" and only value pocketing the balls? if that's all I had to focus on, this game would be tremendously boring.

(FYI, I am not getting malicious commands or barking, its kinda a soft "you should/shouldn't".... blah blah.... didn't want you to think I was getting abused by my teammates LOL)
 
I couldn't read it all either, but I agree.


I don't care how advanced you are, you can never leave the basics behind...never.


Stance, stroke, pocket speed, ball in hole. Done. Do it again.

Don't give up.

There will be real experts along shortly I am sure...this is all I have to say on the matter.



.
 
I've watched people fly planes on tv, but it doesn't mean I could hop behind the controls. Keep it simple and just focus on making balls. When you're a 4, start thinking about more advanced stuff.
 
My take on this is......you DO NOT have the proper amount of time dedicated for improvement! Playing on league night and only one more additional day is not enough. Look at pool like target shooting a gun, you need proper fundamentals before you can run and shoot moving targets. It's going to be really helpful if you truly do understand the higher points of the game but you need to slow down and focas on shot making first, then shot making with an IDEA of where the cue ball is going! This needs to be honed way before you can start playing real shape. Someone suggested centerball (no sidespin) hits and that's GREAT advise!!!!!! Learn the pocketing skill first!! I hate saying this because of my history of arguing with stroke instructors but seeing one would probably speed up your process. But with only 1-2 nights of table time it probably wouldn't be worth the investment for lessons until you can play more than 14hrs a week. Sum it up I think a simpler strategy and centerball with triple the table time for 6months then possibly seek personal coaching from a better player or instructor.
 
It's not an uncommon problem and something I suffer from occasionally.

Let me just put it this way. If you miss the shot and get pinpoint position your sitting in the chair. If you make the shot and get shit shape you probably still have some sort of shot to shoot, you're at the table and if you find a way to make that one you get to stay there. Always better to be at the table than in the chair.

Now...that being said...I think people who focus on their shot making exclusively become a better mediocre player faster on ball pocketing, but unless they can drastically shift their focus they'll never be a really good player. A player who focuses too much on shape and how to play the right shot and misses the ball will not play up to the level they should probably, but long term they will likely become the better player if both players continue on their same path. But it'll take a while and they'll spend a long time playing well below the level they should be playing at.
 
Stop listening to 4s. Get an instructor. In the mean time go on Youtube and watch the pro matches to get a feel for the decisions they make. The current ones are more clear and you can see better. You can see how the hit the cue and where it goes after it hits the object ball.

While I'm typing this I'm watching Orcollo and Woodward playing 8 ball.

Oh yeah center cue for a while in a match and the other stuff for practice. .Also watch the 5s and 6s when they are playing
 
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I'm guessing you are at least 40. Which means that you don't ever plan on taking the game real seriously. You stated that you are winning most of your matches, and that you are having fun. And that you have basically no time to practice.

So, my advice to you, is to just continue what you are doing. Don't worry about what your teammates say, but still listen and try to pick up a few things along the way.

When you do get time to practice, get with a decent player and have him help you with how to pocket balls. I know you are having fun playing defense, but the game is actually a lot more fun making balls. :wink:
 
Neil said:
I'm guessing you are at least 40. Which means that you don't ever plan on taking the game real seriously. You stated that you are winning most of your matches, and that you are having fun. And that you have basically no time to practice.
So, my advice to you, is to just continue what you are doing. Don't worry about what your teammates say, but still listen and try to pick up a few things along the way.
When you do get time to practice, get with a decent player and have him help you with how to pocket balls. I know you are having fun playing defense, but the game is actually a lot more fun making balls. :wink:
Click to expand...

I couldn't read it all either, but this here is the best advice, so far. :smile:
 
Billiards and one pocket are games in which you can be creative, try hard and challenging shots, and not have to worry about being too penalized for not being able to make difficult shots all the time.

If you play 9 ball, you have to be able to strike balls well.

Style? Do what wins games. Whatever wins is right. The win is more important than how you win.

Now, if you notice that your style tends to be flashy or conservative, then these are sign posts telling you where to work. If your game doesn't match the shot selection of better players, work on those skills. But the chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and that link is the one that will show you the most improvement. Maybe someday you can use your strengths to set yourself apart, but in the beginning you need to round all of your skills.

I know you don't have a lot of time to practice, but the good news is at your level even a couple of hours a week can make a huge impact.

So, either work on what you need to for your game to become balanced, or play billiards. Either is a good choice.
 
It seems to me if you have had nine matches and only lost one you shoukd be increasing in skill level within the next couple weeks. Probably to a 3 or 4. I would also say that there is a huge difference between playing and practicing. Especially when it comes to calling league night practice. How much table time do you get in league. It has been said to go pro you will pocket over a million balls. I would suggest any practice you do focus on center ball. Also practice shots you missed at the last league night. A well respected member on he posted advice to a sl4 on here a few weeks ago. Told him to shoot 500 balls a day drawing the cue ball back only one diamond but increase the shot distance1 diamond at a time. In six monthis your game will skyrocket. Use page reinfircements to mark ball location. Just get to the table and do the drills. I found owning a table makes it far easier to practice. Maybe a team member has one you can practice on. Maybe you should find someone near you and start playing once a week might help you get motivated. More. It may also give you access to different sized tables as well. This is a game of millimeters. Angles, speed, spin, height of stroke, amount of cut, amount of follow through. I would start with tor videos an then likeky to Dr Dave for instruction if you want to learn alone help alone there are lots of good coaches and instructors to help address your personal mistakes.
 
slide13 said:
It's not an uncommon problem and something I suffer from occasionally.

Let me just put it this way. If you miss the shot and get pinpoint position your sitting in the chair. If you make the shot and get shit shape you probably still have some sort of shot to shoot, you're at the table and if you find a way to make that one you get to stay there. Always better to be at the table than in the chair.

Now...that being said...I think people who focus on their shot making exclusively become a better mediocre player faster on ball pocketing, but unless they can drastically shift their focus they'll never be a really good player. A player who focuses too much on shape and how to play the right shot and misses the ball will not play up to the level they should probably, but long term they will likely become the better player if both players continue on their same path. But it'll take a while and they'll spend a long time playing well below the level they should be playing at.
Click to expand...

As far as the chair thing, I dont mind sitting when I dont leave them a good shot... in fact that is fun for me, sometimes more fun than making a ball... but I understand what you are saying.

And yes that totally make sense about long term goals, except I dont play the way I do because of long term goals, it just "happened" because for one 3 month period, I got hooked on watching all the 9 ball championships on ESPN, it was fun as heck to watch, and it wasnt hard to pick up on how to play like the pros as far as strategy and defense. The only thing you cannot learn from watching is learning how to shoot the ball straighter LOL.


Gio Sr. said:
Stop listening to 4s. Get an instructor. In the mean time go on Youtube and watch the pro matches to get a feel for the decisions they make. The current ones are more clear and you can see better. You can see how the hit the cue and where it goes after it hits the object ball.

Oh yeah center cue for a while in a match and the other stuff for practice. .Also watch the 5s and 6s when they are playing
Click to expand...

As I said, I am not short on knowledge on how the hall of famers play, but ya taking advice from a 4, especially when he's been a 4 for like 6 years LMAO, is probably not a good idea. And forgive me for going against you here, but I dont learn anything from watching the 4-5-6's... when I watch them I see they make a ton of mistakes on leaves and proper shot selection and speed control. The only thing I watch them for is their stance and bridge etc.... Sometimes I am actually surprised at how bad they are in shot selection. When I played the 7 a couple of weeks ago, I thought he had a good game, pretty much hit every shot the right way even though even he screwed up some distance control on several shots that actually gave me a huge advantage, and considering I won by a very small margin, they cost him the match, but it was a super fun match for me and it was nice watching him play.


Neil said:
I'm guessing you are at least 40. Which means that you don't ever plan on taking the game real seriously. You stated that you are winning most of your matches, and that you are having fun. And that you have basically no time to practice.

So, my advice to you, is to just continue what you are doing. Don't worry about what your teammates say, but still listen and try to pick up a few things along the way.

When you do get time to practice, get with a decent player and have him help you with how to pocket balls. I know you are having fun playing defense, but the game is actually a lot more fun making balls. :wink:
Click to expand...

Yes, LOL... although I dont plan on taking this as seriously as my other sports, I am very competitive and if I do something, I try to do it right, which is why I am here and why I have watched about 20 hours of videos and also chat extensively with a few pool guys since I started this league. If I can get better I will. I guess I need to find what is a "decent player" to learn from... because as in anything, just because you are a pro player doesnt mean you know how to teach... need to find a great player who is also a great teacher I guess. if you have any suggestions on the best way to go about this, let me know.

And I DO take pleasure in running several balls because of nice ball control and execution... however I honestly take as much or more pleasure playing defense, and cant really explain it but it is what it is.



Tin Man said:
Billiards and one pocket are games in which you can be creative, try hard and challenging shots, and not have to worry about being too penalized for not being able to make difficult shots all the time.

If you play 9 ball, you have to be able to strike balls well.

Style? Do what wins games. Whatever wins is right. The win is more important than how you win.

Now, if you notice that your style tends to be flashy or conservative, then these are sign posts telling you where to work. If your game doesn't match the shot selection of better players, work on those skills. But the chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and that link is the one that will show you the most improvement. Maybe someday you can use your strengths to set yourself apart, but in the beginning you need to round all of your skills.

I know you don't have a lot of time to practice, but the good news is at your level even a couple of hours a week can make a huge impact.

So, either work on what you need to for your game to become balanced, or play billiards. Either is a good choice.
Click to expand...

I am only playing 9 ball now and usually anyways, unless it is just a rec game and the others guys wanna play 8. I actually dont like 8 ball much at all. 9 ball to me is much more natural and I have a better feel for it. And yes I understand that, if I put in a few hours here and there I am sure I can jump up a level easily... I learned a lot just from the 15 minutes I put in doing that draw drill a few days ago. I can only imagine what I can learn after putting in 10 hours on just that.


Kevin3824 said:
It seems to me if you have had nine matches and only lost one you shoukd be increasing in skill level within the next couple weeks. Probably to a 3 or 4. I would also say that there is a huge difference between playing and practicing. Especially when it comes to calling league night practice. How much table time do you get in league. It has been said to go pro you will pocket over a million balls. I would suggest any practice you do focus on center ball. Also practice shots you missed at the last league night. A well respected member on he posted advice to a sl4 on here a few weeks ago. Told him to shoot 500 balls a day drawing the cue ball back only one diamond but increase the shot distance1 diamond at a time. In six monthis your game will skyrocket. Use page reinfircements to mark ball location. Just get to the table and do the drills. I found owning a table makes it far easier to practice. Maybe a team member has one you can practice on. Maybe you should find someone near you and start playing once a week might help you get motivated. More. It may also give you access to different sized tables as well. This is a game of millimeters. Angles, speed, spin, height of stroke, amount of cut, amount of follow through. I would start with tor videos an then likeky to Dr Dave for instruction if you want to learn alone help alone there are lots of good coaches and instructors to help address your personal mistakes.
Click to expand...

Well one of the reasons it is taking me so long to move up is because I play so many "defensive shots" and "inadvertent" defensive shots where I try to pocket a tough ball via bank or cut, but actually my primary purpose is to execute a tough leave for my opponent rather than just make the ball. For example, if I have a target ball that I have to do a hard cut or bank to a far corner, mt chances of making that are about 10% or less with my current skill level. However, I can leave a tough shot for my opponent about 70+% of the time, and unless I am playing a 5/6 or above, they will not make that shot either and I may end up with an easier shot. What this does is it sometimes inadvertently increases innings without being marked as defense so I think thats how the computer works right? Meanwhile, some might say I am not really learning how to pocket balls but on the contrary, I think I am learning more about cue and target ball behavior and the more I understand that, the easier it will also become pocketing balls while maintaining a high win percentage. I dunno, maybe this is a silly thought, but that's what has been happening. I just cant stand to see myself or other players go for a super low percentage shot and then leave a tap in for the other player next, just seems like stupid pool. If I think I have better than a 50% chance of pocketing a ball, then I will focus more on the direct execution to do so.
 
Its simple even you said it you need table time and concentrated practice. Despite your age you can take pool as far as you like but there is no magic you will have to work to improve. Personally i try to put in 500 plus balls per day. I am not in a league i got upset with a couple people and now i am determined to become a better player than them
So im pushing myself to meet that goal.
 
My bad I should have done a better job at reading your post lol. You are getting a lot of good advise here from these guys. Don't worry about going against me, I'm used to that kind of thing I was married twice. Just keep up the good work.

If you lived down here in south Jersey I could have you over as a guest, free table time. I could use a good practice partner.
 
You might want tto check out Scot Lee. He is an instructor member here. He gets up here regularly. Lots of good reviews. I hope to get with him someday. At 67 with numerous health issues I keep missing out on a time . Check out his posts and reviews in the instructor section.
 
Kevin3824 said:
Its simple even you said it you need table time and concentrated practice. Despite your age you can take pool as far as you like but there is no magic you will have to work to improve. Personally i try to put in 500 plus balls per day. I am not in a league i got upset with a couple people and now i am determined to become a better player than them
So im pushing myself to meet that goal.
Click to expand...

Wow 500 a day gezuz... well FYI when I am more financially stable where I can free up my living room, the size is perfect to put in a 8-9' table, ahem.... so until I find a bigger home, that would be one of my first priorities... but I fear that bec whenever I do something, I DO it and after failing at tennis/baseball, golf, and not really a fan of fishing (u see the trend here LOL) I might just think about going all out in billiards and see what happens, but that would mean the hard hours so... ya... life balance and stuff etc.... But I am happy to hear that u r doing so, I envy that.


Gio Sr. said:
My bad I should have done a better job at reading your post lol. You are getting a lot of good advise here from these guys. Don't worry about going against me, I'm used to that kind of thing I was married twice. Just keep up the good work.

If you lived down here in south Jersey I could have you over as a guest, free table time. I could use a good practice partner.
Click to expand...

LMAO... marriage is an analogy to all things isnt it....

I wish, I'd love that... I think even in practice, having a partner is great, although sometimes it helps to just buckle down and hit a couple thousand yourself, but adding the little social aspect with like-minded people can be a huge factor as well.
 
@ JMASTERJ:

Do you have the ability to record yourself hitting some balls? If you post a video you will get lots of good advice here. It might even motivate you to find more time to play and post better and better videos.
 
Dan White said:
@ JMASTERJ:

Do you have the ability to record yourself hitting some balls? If you post a video you will get lots of good advice here. It might even motivate you to find more time to play and post better and better videos.
Click to expand...

I actually did take a couple, asking a golf pro that is like asking a pool player do you have your own cue LOL. I guess I was a bit shy on posting that video but I guess I should... I didnt see any other video form posts here so I thought it would be weird, but no?
 
Hmm no offense, but in reading your responses to the posters advice reminds me of an old expression, "You can't put anything in a full basket"
 
Start with a stroke drill, do this until you are confident you can hit the cue ball straight...then each time you go, set up an easy straight in shot(use top center and bottom on the straight in shot) or slight cut shot and shoot it 50 or 60 times using all kinds of different english, I use 5 shots from each: Top, Center, Bottom, Top left, left, bottom left, bottom right, right, top right...takes about 10 minutes to get through one ball pocketing location, if you have half an hour do three or four...Tor Lowry's videos are invaluable, and his stroke drill is super easy...put a ball on the spot and shoot it into one of the further away corner pockets, follow through 4-6 inches....cannot strees the importance of a good stroke enough. Good luck to you, hope you love pool for years to come.
 
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