The members are the reason the WFS section is like it is now. When Mike tried to make some rules to help keep things reasonable members went out of their way to skirt around and manipulate the system every way they could. The last resort was for Mike to put up the system that is in place now. IMO Mike had no choice.
Sale section dead
- Thread starter ron3
- Start date
dom_poppa
Banned
If I am not mistaken, the rules of the For Sale section, says you cannot bump a thread or comment. The members here broke the rules and when finally AZB implemented a system that reflects the original rules people left.
It's like the candy store that says you can't steal but you do it anyways because they don't care. When they finally call the police, the people never showed up anymore. Go figure.
asiasdad
Banned
It is also the greed factor of several members that has killed the section.
To sell something, one has to perceive VALUE in the purchase price, not
the high prices on most of the regurgitated fire wood that keeps getting
bumped to the top.
Seriously, if your fire wood does not sell after 1000 views, that means no
one is stupid enough to pay for your greed.
Get the price to reality, or let the damn thread die.
Danny
(most of my stuff has sold within 72 hours of being posted, the rest
immediately after a price adjustment downward)
It has definitely gotten less busy. I put 2 cues up for sale recently (at reasonable prices) and pulled them down due to a lack of response. I also have logged in looking to buy a cue once or twice and given up recently after getting put off by the overpricing on most of the stuff posted (used cues from non top tier cuemakers listed for more than they cost new sound familiar?)
My biggest pre panjo qualms were people overbumping threads, guys overloading a page with multiple for sale threads, and the rip off pricing.
That being said, I was happy to see the one bump per 48 hour rule, but even after that some clowns would just make new threads to relist stuff and get around it. I get that it is the American way to try and make money and all that, but at the same time this is supposed to be a community and the w/fs section is supposed to be a service for and to the pool community. The guys with too much time on their hands parked in there hoping to make a score or flip cues already listed by members are a detriment to that in my opinion.
My biggest pre panjo qualms were people overbumping threads, guys overloading a page with multiple for sale threads, and the rip off pricing.
That being said, I was happy to see the one bump per 48 hour rule, but even after that some clowns would just make new threads to relist stuff and get around it. I get that it is the American way to try and make money and all that, but at the same time this is supposed to be a community and the w/fs section is supposed to be a service for and to the pool community. The guys with too much time on their hands parked in there hoping to make a score or flip cues already listed by members are a detriment to that in my opinion.
R.O.I.......basic investment rule.....and people get greedy.........they forget what they paid to get the cue that's being offered for sale and just price it at the top of the rung based upon most recent prices for that cue-maker......and the cue doesn't sell.....they get greedy and the cue sits and sits.....even with some cues listed on some dealer websites this occurs.
I am not here to tell anyone how much profit they are entitled to.....it's as much as you can get as far as I'm concerned but the seller also has to eventually become more realistic.......if a cue hasn't sold in 6 months, and the seller hasn't dropped the price to entice a sale, that cue is over-priced....IMO.
Browse the Forum.....there are listings that go back to the old Forum format and the cues were 6-7 months unsold there....and it repeats here....those cues are over-priced but apparently a lot of sellers don't think that way.
I'll offer you a real example to illustrate this......I own a Scruggs.....it's a really nice cue.....some of you have seen it......and it's not for sale so don't even bother asking......I bought the cue from the original owner,,,,ergo, I'm 2nd owner, paid $2500 for my cue and was happy with the price and completely thrilled with the cue.....I could sell this cue fast on AZ or ebay....heck, there's a 1/2 dozen guys in my town right now that would jump at my cue......BUT......there's always a butt in pool......at what price?
I browse listings all the time and I see how many cues like mine are out there....hardly any.....and I see what other Scruggs flat faced ivory cues are listed for.....notice I did say "listed".....and the prices are high. So back to what I was driving at.......I know my cue will sell but if I follow what others are doing, I should list my cue for the high upper 3k range. just shy of 4k.....and it will not sell....but if I listed my cue for $3100 shipped, it would sell.......and I would have made a 20% return on a cue I've gotten to play with and enjoy.....I would not have lost money........heck, I could sell it for $2750 plus shipping and still make a profit......or I could get stupid greedy and rationalize my cue is nicer than the ones listed at $3800 and so I'll ask for $4k plus shipping.....and it won't sell.
If I wasn't undergoing surgery in 48 hrs, I'd buy the cue from JV at Classic I just wrote to him about.......I'd ask if he could drop the price a $100 and include shipping....the cue is priced very reasonably and he mentioned the price or BO.....he priced that cue to sell and I recognized that and it is priced fairly....no reason to quibble or think it over or try to haggle a better price......but like I said, surgery in 48 hrs and then no pool for 4 months.......so I'm not about to drop several grand for a cue to have it sit in the closet un-played until I can get back to playing pool again.
If sellers do not get greedy, they'll get repeat business, grow their business and reputation and all it requires if to be reasonable in their mark-up instead of trying to see what they can get away with. The biggest turnoff for me to seriously consider buying a cue is elevator pricing......you see the threads......starts at $2500 and after months and months going unsold, and elevator price drops, you read.....final offer.....$1795 shipped or this beauty is going back into the vault..the cue might be nice but the seller has lost some credulity with me and consequently, my interest in getting the cue wanes.
The resale market has been in the slumps for the past 5 years and now is not the time to make up for unrealized profit..... I hope sellers become realistic in their pricing and like I said, JV at Classic impressed me with his realistic approach to cue pricing.
Matt B.
p.s Just checked the for sale listings and Nick Serdula just posted a handsome Scruggs cue (steel joint) for $2500......beautiful cue.....and a realistic list price too.
That cue should not hang around long......a handsome, custom Richard Black just sold for its list price of $1750 in a few days of being posted.....realistic cue prices bring actual results.
I am not here to tell anyone how much profit they are entitled to.....it's as much as you can get as far as I'm concerned but the seller also has to eventually become more realistic.......if a cue hasn't sold in 6 months, and the seller hasn't dropped the price to entice a sale, that cue is over-priced....IMO.
Browse the Forum.....there are listings that go back to the old Forum format and the cues were 6-7 months unsold there....and it repeats here....those cues are over-priced but apparently a lot of sellers don't think that way.
I'll offer you a real example to illustrate this......I own a Scruggs.....it's a really nice cue.....some of you have seen it......and it's not for sale so don't even bother asking......I bought the cue from the original owner,,,,ergo, I'm 2nd owner, paid $2500 for my cue and was happy with the price and completely thrilled with the cue.....I could sell this cue fast on AZ or ebay....heck, there's a 1/2 dozen guys in my town right now that would jump at my cue......BUT......there's always a butt in pool......at what price?
I browse listings all the time and I see how many cues like mine are out there....hardly any.....and I see what other Scruggs flat faced ivory cues are listed for.....notice I did say "listed".....and the prices are high. So back to what I was driving at.......I know my cue will sell but if I follow what others are doing, I should list my cue for the high upper 3k range. just shy of 4k.....and it will not sell....but if I listed my cue for $3100 shipped, it would sell.......and I would have made a 20% return on a cue I've gotten to play with and enjoy.....I would not have lost money........heck, I could sell it for $2750 plus shipping and still make a profit......or I could get stupid greedy and rationalize my cue is nicer than the ones listed at $3800 and so I'll ask for $4k plus shipping.....and it won't sell.
If I wasn't undergoing surgery in 48 hrs, I'd buy the cue from JV at Classic I just wrote to him about.......I'd ask if he could drop the price a $100 and include shipping....the cue is priced very reasonably and he mentioned the price or BO.....he priced that cue to sell and I recognized that and it is priced fairly....no reason to quibble or think it over or try to haggle a better price......but like I said, surgery in 48 hrs and then no pool for 4 months.......so I'm not about to drop several grand for a cue to have it sit in the closet un-played until I can get back to playing pool again.
If sellers do not get greedy, they'll get repeat business, grow their business and reputation and all it requires if to be reasonable in their mark-up instead of trying to see what they can get away with. The biggest turnoff for me to seriously consider buying a cue is elevator pricing......you see the threads......starts at $2500 and after months and months going unsold, and elevator price drops, you read.....final offer.....$1795 shipped or this beauty is going back into the vault..the cue might be nice but the seller has lost some credulity with me and consequently, my interest in getting the cue wanes.
The resale market has been in the slumps for the past 5 years and now is not the time to make up for unrealized profit..... I hope sellers become realistic in their pricing and like I said, JV at Classic impressed me with his realistic approach to cue pricing.
Matt B.
p.s Just checked the for sale listings and Nick Serdula just posted a handsome Scruggs cue (steel joint) for $2500......beautiful cue.....and a realistic list price too.
That cue should not hang around long......a handsome, custom Richard Black just sold for its list price of $1750 in a few days of being posted.....realistic cue prices bring actual results.
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Initially I went first to the wanted FS section. Now I hit new posts and only occasionally look there. The excessive bumping bothered me. However, I hate to see it dead as it is now. AZ shoud be the premier place to buy and sell cues other that commercial business sites. Most of the god cues are over on FB is the various groups that promote such activity. They are easy to look up and join. Just follow the rules or you are bounced.
As for pricing...if seems everyone wants a discount no matter where something is priced. This tends to inflate asking prices. Once the price is posted, it is hard to go up.
I would very much like to see the WFS section thrive. Perhaps a program where only the initial poster's post can bump a thread would allow comments without bumping? I have been cautious here and never had a problem. There are alot of problems I see reading FB.
All the best
As for pricing...if seems everyone wants a discount no matter where something is priced. This tends to inflate asking prices. Once the price is posted, it is hard to go up.
I would very much like to see the WFS section thrive. Perhaps a program where only the initial poster's post can bump a thread would allow comments without bumping? I have been cautious here and never had a problem. There are alot of problems I see reading FB.
All the best
The WFS forum is not the problem it just reality. Buyers come in basically 3 catagories. Players, flippers, and collectors.
Players usually don't buy a lot of cues. Most just own 1 or 2. In 15 years I've only owned 1 playing cue at a time.
Flippers only buy cues that are well below market value so they can make money.
Collectors only buy cues that are rare or have special meanings or a certain maker.
Bottom line the market is limited to what a particular person wants or needs
Players usually don't buy a lot of cues. Most just own 1 or 2. In 15 years I've only owned 1 playing cue at a time.
Flippers only buy cues that are well below market value so they can make money.
Collectors only buy cues that are rare or have special meanings or a certain maker.
Bottom line the market is limited to what a particular person wants or needs
A couple of things I have always said to my managers.
1. What you paid for something in the past has nothing to do with its current value.
2. You never know what something is worth until you sell it.
3. If you have no action on your item, your price exceeds the value of the buyers
4. The buyer determines the market, not the seller.
True scenario. A customer comes into the dealership. I appraise their trade. I show them an actual cash value for their trade, let's say $10,000. They are upset, as they believe it is worth more.
I ask, "Why?"
They reply."Because I owe $13,000"
I look and smile, "What would it be worth if you didn't owe anything?"
Common sense.
Like my friend use to always say, "cars are commodities, and like the stock market they go up and down. In today's market it just happens faster". You could say the same for cues.
1. What you paid for something in the past has nothing to do with its current value.
2. You never know what something is worth until you sell it.
3. If you have no action on your item, your price exceeds the value of the buyers
4. The buyer determines the market, not the seller.
True scenario. A customer comes into the dealership. I appraise their trade. I show them an actual cash value for their trade, let's say $10,000. They are upset, as they believe it is worth more.
I ask, "Why?"
They reply."Because I owe $13,000"
I look and smile, "What would it be worth if you didn't owe anything?"
Common sense.
Like my friend use to always say, "cars are commodities, and like the stock market they go up and down. In today's market it just happens faster". You could say the same for cues.
Maybe the best fix would be to just limit how many and often you can post a cue for sale. That is just a simple rule change. Something like 1 cue per month per member. In most every town on they have garage sales on weekends.
They also have rules or laws to govern them. In my town I think it is like 1 or 2 a year and you have to get a free permit. Before they started this there were people actually doing it several days a week all year long. They had turned their front yards into stores.
That is what has happened to the sale section on AZ. I am sure it was not the original concept to have dealers with a dozen of "New" cues for sale all the time. That is pretty much is what had ruined it.
I move far more cues on Open Billiards market then I do here. To be honest I'm not really happy about that. I did more than buy and sell here. I participated in a very cool community. There are some people here I would trust with my life. I just had someone send me a $1000.00 cue with no money down and no assurance that I would buy the cue. I met that person here on Az....we conducted that transaction on Facebook. I'm now buying his cue via payments and it's already off to refinish.
Before the Panjo experiment Mike asked for some opinions on what might improve the Wanted/For Sale. We responded but quite honestly....much of what was said seems to have been ignored.
I think his heart and business philosophy is in the right place. I also think he may have been too busy to really consider what we as a community offered for advice/insight.
I suggested a committee approach with some of the vets and some with high numbers of I-Trades (yes I have a lot of transactions but I can think of many with more and some with less who would have better served than myself) since those are the people who have seen most everything there is to see here on Az.
So now here we are...with a forum that is clearly dead as compared to what it was in the past and groups like OBM on Facebook not just functioning but thriving.
I used to be happy to buy my yearly Gold membership here....I used to be happy to donate to a good cause here. Now it doesn't make sense to support a site that is no longer a community.
And what is going to change here? Wish I knew...I miss the community atmosphere but a lot of my Az friends are right there with me on OBM....bet they feel the same way I do....we would rather be here.
Before the Panjo experiment Mike asked for some opinions on what might improve the Wanted/For Sale. We responded but quite honestly....much of what was said seems to have been ignored.
I think his heart and business philosophy is in the right place. I also think he may have been too busy to really consider what we as a community offered for advice/insight.
I suggested a committee approach with some of the vets and some with high numbers of I-Trades (yes I have a lot of transactions but I can think of many with more and some with less who would have better served than myself) since those are the people who have seen most everything there is to see here on Az.
So now here we are...with a forum that is clearly dead as compared to what it was in the past and groups like OBM on Facebook not just functioning but thriving.
I used to be happy to buy my yearly Gold membership here....I used to be happy to donate to a good cause here. Now it doesn't make sense to support a site that is no longer a community.
And what is going to change here? Wish I knew...I miss the community atmosphere but a lot of my Az friends are right there with me on OBM....bet they feel the same way I do....we would rather be here.
What was asked for here, is working on Facebook
Many of us lobbied for a more categorized FS section. There are a few open, post anything billiard related groups on FB. Where you can post anything. There are also specific groups for Premium Cues and Premium cases. That do not allow the production stuff or discussions to be part of the posts.
It is working out fine, and probably more convenient for the individual user. Guys who want to post or see Szams, SW's, Bushka's, etc.. go to the premium cue section. If you want to post or see Mezz, Predator, Schon, etc.. there are 2-3 groups that you can join.
Because of this, the posts don't go multiple pages deep in the matter of 15 minutes. It's not dealers, bumping, or any specific issue with the FS section, its the amount of postings in one lump that was the issue. Then combine it with the bumping, oohing and ahhing, and possible shilling that was the issue. Simply making a few more categories would have probably solved many of the problems.
JV
Many of us lobbied for a more categorized FS section. There are a few open, post anything billiard related groups on FB. Where you can post anything. There are also specific groups for Premium Cues and Premium cases. That do not allow the production stuff or discussions to be part of the posts.
It is working out fine, and probably more convenient for the individual user. Guys who want to post or see Szams, SW's, Bushka's, etc.. go to the premium cue section. If you want to post or see Mezz, Predator, Schon, etc.. there are 2-3 groups that you can join.
Because of this, the posts don't go multiple pages deep in the matter of 15 minutes. It's not dealers, bumping, or any specific issue with the FS section, its the amount of postings in one lump that was the issue. Then combine it with the bumping, oohing and ahhing, and possible shilling that was the issue. Simply making a few more categories would have probably solved many of the problems.
JV
What are the premium cue section group names on FB?
Good observation.
Regarding other's comments that something doesn't sell due to price, that is true in some cases but IMO the general market is just flooded with product. If you take the dealers and flippers out of the equation for a moment, I believe you could slash the asking prices by a third and the market would still be flooded just because there aren't enough buyers.
Facebook - Just like here, today and in the past, some things sell on Facebook and some things don't. Just like here before the changes, Ads on Facebook get bumped continually and in some cases daily and multiple times during the day. In many cases, just like here before the changes, the same cues go unsold and keep appearing at the top of the pages. Some dealers post the same ads, one after the other every day.
I look at the for sale pages on Facebook and the WFS section here, but I think there needs to be a balance between beneficial discussion and overbumping. There is nothing useful about comments to the effect of: Hits a ton, Sorry I sold mine, Seller is a great guy, etc. Five people praising a cue isn't going to change my mind just like five of the seller's friends saying he is a good guy won't change how I do business with that seller.
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RJ gave some very good advice in this post. Never send money as a gift
For goods, paypal will not be able to help at all if you do!!!
Eventually you see the same cue's relisted after trades and or people changing their minds or thinking they can make a profit. Same thing happening on the open billiards market, sellers asking high prices buyers spamming lowball offers and bits of drama. It's a soft and quirky market especially with used cues and customs. Certainly use your best judgement and PayPal gift always sounds like trouble.
I've been outspoken about this and will repeat it again. They ruined it with the changes and its now dwindeled down to where it barely has a pulse. So be it.
I watch the cue market as close as anybody on the planet and have for 20+ years. And these changes sucked!!!
I watch the cue market as close as anybody on the planet and have for 20+ years. And these changes sucked!!!
It has nothing to do with how the FS on AZ and everything to do with how FB works and how many more people are using it to sell products ,, in fact many buisnesses are now using FB instead of web sites
So when customers add them to thier groups every time they post it automatically shows up on everyone's home page it's like sending out flyers with the click of the button
1
i've stayed tuned to the 20ish related threads since last OCT/NOV when the WFS section was changed & everyone voiced their opinions & suggestions. last night, KK9 & i discussed this at length - because the bottom line is this economy & how one reacts to it.
i've also skimmed the 17ish threads from the past 4 months, on "where have all the AZBers gone?". (that's a split on 2 reasons....)
how many hits/day has the WFS section lost?
how many of those AZBers also participated in other (Main/NPR) sections?
what's the cost of those lost clicks (stats for advertising) to AZB?
AZB is tight-nit (the "k" was omitted on purpose) & it is truly a REPEAT/REFERRAL community. but the MINUTE, a dealer (and its customers) find a newer/better avenue - word can spread like wildfire. in a tight economy, do you choose to put your efforts into 50M viewers? or 40K?
i've also skimmed the 17ish threads from the past 4 months, on "where have all the AZBers gone?". (that's a split on 2 reasons....)
how many hits/day has the WFS section lost?
how many of those AZBers also participated in other (Main/NPR) sections?
what's the cost of those lost clicks (stats for advertising) to AZB?
AZB is tight-nit (the "k" was omitted on purpose) & it is truly a REPEAT/REFERRAL community. but the MINUTE, a dealer (and its customers) find a newer/better avenue - word can spread like wildfire. in a tight economy, do you choose to put your efforts into 50M viewers? or 40K?