Same players winning small weekly tournament

pillage6 said:
I think it's a conflict of interest and will always raise questions/doubt if you compete in the tournament you are running. Even though it's done for a good reason i.e. to get more players and sweeten the pot, it still leaves a sour taste in some people's mouths.

These are small bar tournaments - 6 to 30 players. And the TD's are volunteers (not paid). So most of these tournaments have TD's who also play in the tournament. I would have no interest in running it if I couldn't play.

Also no one else is willing to run it, so if I don't run my tournament, there will not be a tournament.
 
There is a guy that constantly tells me "I know everything about the game, my stroke just ain't straight", he is about 20 and can run maybe 3-4 balls in 9-ball. How do people expect you to believe a line of crap like that?

Billy Bob: When you say "these", are there like many small bars that are run by the same people or something? I
 
pillage6 said:
Billy Bob: When you say "these", are there like many small bars that are run by the same people or something? I

No, I live in a rural area and there are many small towns scattered around. Some towns have just one bar for the whole town. These various bars are owned by different people and will have a weekly pool tournament. Each bar has a different volunteer person running the tournament.

So Monday everyone goes to town A and plays there, then Tuesday town B. Wednesday town C. And each town will have its local players who only play in that tournament, but don't go to any other tournaments.
 
The most effective is: win 2x in a row, sit out a week, IMO.

I have been banned from more than 1 local tournament for always finishing 1st.

I have been asked to sit out after winning tourneys more than once in a row.

I have run weekly events into the ground because I kept winning.

I have been required to give progressive handicaps. (Once, it was that I had to give the 5,6,7,8 & break! I didn't win a game and only 1 game in 2sets, 2x elim event, did the game require shots after the break!).
 
Billy_Bob said:
I run a small weekly 8-ball tournament ...

We charge $3 and pay 4 spots. The thinking behind paying a 4th place is that different lesser skilled players will "get into the money" and this will encourage them to come back.

The entry fee is too small to worry about.

Paying to 4 places is great. Six if you have 24 or more. If you use the 40-30-20-10 payout that comes out to 18-13-9-5. if 15 players play. Not a lot to win but people like to win something and it makes them feel good.

They shouldn't complain because you just tell them that where else can they get to play some good players for only $3. (Most tournaments here are 5-7 or $10)

If someone wins twice then he sits out the next week.

You might try an 8-ball on the break pot for a dollar extra and only make it live for the first few rounds. Then if no one wins it that week, or night, then it carries over to the next tournament. One place here did that plus he only paid out half of the pot and the rest carried over. It makes it sound like there is a really big pot and brings out the players. Most players always feel they have a chance on that pot.

Play a race to 2.

Jake
 
Wow, sitting out, and asking guys to play like crap are silly anti-competative ideas that will cost you players either way, and defeats the purpose of playing at all.

From my perspective you have two problems.

The first one is that it's an 8-ball tournament. It's not that I dislike 8-ball, (I do), but that 8-ball is a game in which a player of significantly lesser skill simply has zero chance against someone of higher skill. This also makes handicapping 8-ball very difficult, because lets say you have a beginner that you say has to win 2 games, and a C player that has to win 4 games, the beginner still has almost no chance, unless the C player is someone who gets psyched out over handicaps; this is because a beginner, no matter how easily the table is laid out, simply can't run out, can't get out of safes, and certainly can't play safes. The C player can just play wide open knowing he will get several turns. The same goes for B to C, A to B, and Masters to A, though not to the same degree the further up the foodchain you go. Still though, the lower tier players, the onese who make up the majority of the field, and the ones you want coming back and getting better, are going to suffer and not come back. The other thing about handicapping 8-ball is that you can't have enough tiers to make it truly fair, because the top players have to be given high numbers aginst the beginner types, and it starts to take too long to run the thing.

The second problem is that you have no handicap system.

Unless you have a town of world-beaters, you just aren't going to be able to run a scratch tourney for very long before the lesser players give up and move on.

My suggestion would be to make the tournament 9-ball.

First off, 9-ball is going to make everyone a better player, because it's a harder game period. There are also less rules to argue about.

Second, since the games are shorter duration, you can more easlity adopt a handicap system that will allow several tiers without causing some matches to take forever. A 7 to 7 race in 8-ball between two of the best players could take 2 hours. No tourney has time for this. With 9-ball you could handicap 3 to 9, and even two 9s squaring off wouldn't take too long.

Chris Crisman, ran an insanely successful Sunday 9-ball tournament in Chicago for over 25 years because he had a great handicapping system. In fact even though Chris is long gone, the tournament is still going.

Chris' system:

Handicaps 3-9 (2 for absolutely horrid players).
The handicaps were determined by Chris watching the first few matches of newer players, and in general keeping an eye on everyone. You kinda get the feel for it after a few weeks of seeing everyone, so even though it sounds kind of arbitrary, and subjective, it really does work out fairly for those that keep coming.
Players that came in 1st and 2nd were automatically raised one. 3-8 by one half, and 9-16 by one quarter. A 6.5 would still only need to win 6 games to win a match, but if he cashed again, he was moved up to 7 (even if the 6.5 player won; Chris dropped all decimals on a move up, so you never had a guy go from 6.5 to 7.5).
The exceptions come when you reach 9, and was done to save time, because you can't have guys going to all kinds of crazy numbers like 15! If a 9 cahsed at all, the next time he played he was a 9 minus 1, meaning that he still only had to win nine games, but his opponent had to win one less than his own handicap; thus a 9 minus 2 playing a 7 would result in a 9 to 5 race.
What happens if a 9 minus 3 plays a 3? The minimum games to win was two, and in 9-ball, anyone can win 2 games on luck.
Once you attained a certain rank, you were not moved back, mostly because people don't get worse. They may get rusty, but not worse. However if someone came in, got lucky and won, then got moved up, and came back 10 times and didn't win too many matches, they might get moved back down a quarter point; one less game to win, but right back into the frying pan if they cashed.

Other things he did to even out the playing field were: alternating breaks, no three foul rule in effect for players 6 and under, and no jump cues (because what 3,4,5 is going to have one?).

The rules for the game except the exceptions listed above, were the same as those on TV.

The terrific part about all this was, it wasn't written anywhere. Chris had all this and who everyone was, including players he hadn't seen in months, in his noggin, so no one could manipulate it too much, and those that did so, were simply shown the door. The players' handicaps were written down, but Chris remembered everyone's face, name, and stroke. I simply deduced what was going on by paying attention.

In over ten years of playing that tourney (not even close to every week), I saw about 3 people complain about anything, and one guy shown the door; not bad!
 
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The problem is, it is usually a race to 1 in 8ball, and that is already a great handicap. Yes, the cream rises to the top, but not necessarily. Anyone can beat anyone in a race to 1. It is also a source of income to win that $60-100 every night for the good player. Portland has turned into a B town...nothing but B tournaments anywhere. I say sit out a week, but then I have seen arrangements where they split the money with someone else, so they don't win twice in a row, so then they don't have to sit out.

On the other hand, I have also seen tournaments where people really want to come and play with the big boys in town for a $5 entry fee, they don't care if they get beat, they want to say they played them and occasionally beat them, and also watched and learned from them.
 
I play in a lot of weekly race to 1, double elimination 8 ball tournaments. Our tournaments on the weekends are about 30-45 players. On the weeknights we get 10 or so depending on the town. We run a calcutta at most of them, so even the weak players can have a chance of making money off of someone. Payout usually is about 80 bucks for first total, with the calcutta maybe paying 30 or 40 for first. 5 dollar entry fee. I usually cash in one of them a week, one of the tournaments I won 4 weeks in a row.

People complaining are going to be bangers who are just playing because they are the best in that paticular bar. Weeknight tournaments are tough to begin with, people want to get back home for some sleep before 11 usually. The weekend ones get more people because they can stay out late and there are no leagues on those nights. I wouldn't worry about it if it was me, let people complain. Either they will get better because they want to win, or they will quit playing. Hopefully if they quit you can invite others to take up their spots.

Does your bar advertise the tournament for you? Do you play bar rules or ball in hand? Call all shots/all rails or just call pocket? Is it simple to understand your rules?
 
Billy_Bob said:
Dumb question....

How do you most fairly run a handicap 8-ball tournament? I don't know a thing about this, so please explain the details.

ie. How would I assign a handicap to each player? The better players are in leagues or have played in tournaments and have known skill levels. The lesser skilled players have no known league or tournament skill levels, plus the thing with a new unknown player showing up.

And something which will probably wreck this whole handicap idea is that the tournament is held on a weeknight, many people have to get up early the next day for work (some 4 or 5 am)...

So the tournament *must* be a race to 1 so it will end by 10 PM.

From my experience, a race to 1 bar tourney just cannot be handicapped fairly. Hell, a race to 1 is just about a coin toss as far as who wins. By the sounds of your tourney, it seems like most of the players are recreational players and probably miss at least 2 or 3 times a rack and rarely run more than 3 balls. The guys that win all the time probably aren't better than D+ or weak C players at best, but against the recreational player, are the "pro" players.

IMO, the best suggestion is to sit anyone that wins two weeks in a row. Another good suggestion was to have a side pot for 8 on the break. This way, anyone has a chance of cashing.


Eric
 
Ive sen -

Sit out a week if you win

Single elimination for the next wek if you win

Handicapping, of course

Tell good players to get lost

good players have to pay more to play. Like $30 for good players and $5 for the bangers who have no chance. Charge em a buck to to show up and buy drinks...

point systems to encourage people to play. with different levels in the points system that pays out after a season. So each player has a chance at cash even if they never win.

Free entry, bar adds money. people play because its free and don't care, too much, if they lose. bar makes money on drinks. Everybody is happy.

I'm sure I've seen other methods, as well..
 
I run a small trny on wensday nite, usually 8 to 12 players.
everynite 1 of 4 will win, even with the handicap.
I tell the other players it's a great chance to play some of the best in the southeast. most dont mind because it's a race to 2 and double elem 8 ball, and we use APA rules (bih on all fouls - 8 on break does not win-call shots)
so they are learning real rules and they really try harder than just banging balls.
we have 3-3a players 1-1a (myself) rest are a and b players , so the b's get a 4 ball handicap , my 3a players will still win all the time but the others are catching up , a few make it to the simifinals with a smile on there face.
All of the (hate to use the term) losers will stay till the very end just to watch.
The top players do not hesitate to offer advice to there opponets and even stay after to play with them for fun.
start time is 7:30 and we are done by 10:00
 
There is a decent weekly around here that has a pretty good format. Still get alot of repeat winners, but people still keep coming. It is in its 3rd year. Last year changed to BIH rather than straight in no slop type.

Race to 1, DE, 8ball, Ball in Hand $6.00 ($4.00 prize pool, $1.00 season, $1.00 8ball break)

Basically each year is 13 weeks with the 14th week being a championship week $10.00 entry. The bar adds a pretty good amount of money to this championship, along with the $1.00 per player each week that has carried through. You have to qualify for this tourney.

Payouts throughout the season pay 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

To qualify, you have to finish 1st or 2nd sometime throughout the year, and play in at least 3 weeks. If the 1st or 2nd player has already qualified in previous weeks, then a person would qualify in a lower spot either 3rd or 4th (if both had qualified).

Generally speaking the strongest players will come out ahead throughout the year, but the weaker players can qualify (or see that as a goal) to play in the year end tourney.

A low-medium player can win 1 game against a strong player, and luck of the draw can play a large part of the outcome of a race to 1 tourney. So these players keep coming back hoping to get a piece of the year end.

After all, a weekly tourney is generally created to bring business into an establishment, and the success of it depends on having people return. This tourney has between 16 - 28 players consistently every week. Its also in the middle of no where. Boondox would be a large city compared to this. :)
 
In my town to keep me and a few others from winning every
week the owner had last week's winner come in with one
loss the next week. ( double elimination). Made it more
interesting.
 
Yeah, Our poolhall runs Wednesday Night tourneys for C/D Players, race to three, eightball, single elimination...

Saturday Nights they have an Open 8-Ball tourney, same race, but, double elimination. The Winner of the Wednesday Night tourney gets free entry into the next Saturday tourney...

The PH uses Valley and APA skill levels to determine who-is-who...A, B, C, and D players...this has been working well, IMO:)
 
My Solution

I had the same problem - I do 2 things - I have a rule that first place has to sit out a week. My second solution is to spread the winnings more equally - like - $65, $50, $35, $24 as an example - or pay down many places. Anything to not encourage all the hustlers in town to come play in my tournament. If they know they arent going to make a ton of money - they wont come.
 
So far as the skill level of our players, we have a couple of A players and a few B's. Then more C's and a lot of D's. Even a few E's sometimes (I know there is no E, but these are E's!)

We tried 9-ball and the bangers did not come. So switched to 8-ball and got better attendance.

The tournament is advertised a little and we play with BCA rules except 8-ball break wins. Most players have played on league and know basic BCA rules. A few bangers did not know BCA rules, but are grudgingly learning. One player wins in bar rules tournaments with "accidental scratches" and kick shots which hit his opponents balls first and he does not like BCA rules one bit! (Also does not win 1st.)

I have an idea which I am going to try. I'm going to give every player who wins 1st place (this includes me) the following note....

Dear 1st place winner;

Congratulations on winning the tournament and thank you for playing.

Some of the players in this tournament have complained that the “same people always win” and say they are becoming discouraged from playing in this tournament.

Note that fewer players in a tournament means less prize money for the winners.

A few of the better players have come up with a voluntary plan to help “spread the cheer” a bit and hopefully encourage more people to play in the tournament.

The first Tuesday of each month, every player who has won 1st place in this tournament is asked to not play in the tournament that night. This includes the tournament director (TD) as well, so the TD will voluntarily not be playing the first Tuesday of each month.

Hopefully this will give other players an easier chance to win (at least once a month) and will encourage more people to play in the tournament.
 
Billy_Bob said:
Dumb question....

How do you most fairly run a handicap 8-ball tournament? I don't know a thing about this, so please explain the details.

ie. How would I assign a handicap to each player? The better players are in leagues or have played in tournaments and have known skill levels. The lesser skilled players have no known league or tournament skill levels, plus the thing with a new unknown player showing up.

And something which will probably wreck this whole handicap idea is that the tournament is held on a weeknight, many people have to get up early the next day for work (some 4 or 5 am)...

So the tournament *must* be a race to 1 so it will end by 10 PM.
Another idea that let's you keep using races to one is to categorize the players into A and B and basically run two simultaneous tournaments with the winners of each playing each other at the end. All the A players automatically go into the top half of the bracket. All the B players automatically go into the bottom half of the bracket. If you're running a single elimination tournament, this guarantees at least 2nd and 4th place to a player from the B bracket. You could also make the finals a 3-2 race, or even a 2-1 race.

You'll have a number of players who are in-between the two levels. If you're willing to do the work to keep track you can try to alternate these players between the top and bottom brackets. Otherwise, just randomize them.

Another problem you may have is that with an equal number of players in each, your A bracket will probably finish well ahead of your B bracket. I'm not sure what you should do about this.

Cory
 
Don't you think you'll have the same problem on the remaining three Tuesdays of each month? :)

(Sorry maybe I didn't understand if the problem is that they complain or that they don't play in your tournament)
 
I play in a 8-Ball and a 9-Ball tourney every Sunday and we draw from 18 to 26 players for the 8-Ball and 12 to 20 players for the nine ball. 9-Ball is singles and 8-Ball is partners, I think the 8-Ball is a success because we draw for partners. In the end this makes the lower level players play better because they usually get a free lesson from their good partners. We never get complaints about the same people winning every week but the good players are usually in the money. I don't really like playing partners but it does keep the number of players each week high. The better players usually settle things in the 9-Ball tourney.

It works for us.
 
Tell the winners that they have to sit out one week, two weeks or even a month. Maybe have an annual tournament where you have the 1st and 2nd place finishers competing.
JoeyA
 
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