Sandbaggers on APA Regionals

Guerra Cues

Guerra Cues

I build one cue at a time
Silver Member
Hi there,
Just a topic for discussion...
Why do people need to be sand baggers? I was 1 game away to make it to the finals on my SL to the APA Nationals, on the regionals this weekend in Bakersfield until I found a sand bagger. It is unfortunate and people like that should be disqualified or bumped to the level they should be on. I am not not crying but I am venting lol. I am a SL5 and I was playing a guy that just got bumped to a 6 but actually should be at least a 7.
It gets worst when we go to Vegas and APA officials do not do anything about it on the spot, not after you loose the match.
Anyway, we played on bar tables that had cloth, nasty cloth (balls on my carpet roll faster than that).
Can't believe APA does the regionals at Corner Pocket in Bakersfield... No free practice tables, restrooms are the nastiest I have seen in my life, can't do a dump without people watching... Unbelievable.
Anyway, I did meet some really nice people there and the beer on draft was not that bad either!
 
Welcome to the APA, Tony.

Seriously, the things you mention are everywhere in the APA. My answer to your (justified) venting is that you should get over being bothered by sandbaggers and low-rent poolrooms or quit and play more tournaments instead.

In the league I played in years ago sandbagging was generally thought of as part of the game, like maximizing your tax deductions or waiting for the after-christmas sales. I left the APA because it hurt my game to play folks who are no threat to get out no matter how many mistakes I made; the sandbaggers never bothered me, they are just hurting themselves by playing below their potential, and generally I could beat them anyway.
 
longhair said:
Welcome to the APA, Tony.

Seriously, the things you mention are everywhere in the APA. My answer to your (justified) venting is that you should get over being bothered by sandbaggers and low-rent poolrooms or quit and play more tournaments instead.

In the league I played in years ago sandbagging was generally thought of as part of the game, like maximizing your tax deductions or waiting for the after-christmas sales. I left the APA because it hurt my game to play folks who are no threat to get out no matter how many mistakes I made; the sandbaggers never bothered me, they are just hurting themselves by playing below their potential, and generally I could beat them anyway.
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Im about to join an APA team, my friend bringing me on told me that they start you off as a four, but that I should loose my first game because they drop you down to a three and its hard to come back up after that. So the analogy of taxes and shopping sales is I thought exactly right on. If you have a handicapped system people are going to sandbag, I mean literally there is no way around it. Not only is there no way to stop people from intentionally doing it, there is no way from stopping yourself from thinking people are doing it when they arent. I mean I think part of not being a high level in the APA or in any leauge or tourney is inconsistency. So it may very well be that from one month, week, day, rack to another someone could play well, to very bad, and back again. Especially if you are playing people you have never seen, how are you to asses if they are sandbagging or not, or if they are just having a good night. I don't think that you being close to going to Vegas and then not being able to because someone caught gear is a valid way to determine that.
 
if you really want to play THE APA SYSTEM!!!!! this is your key to going to Vegas!!!!!

1- lose and lose alot lol expecially if your a newbie, cuz if you start as a 4, and lose you drop down to the lowest level.

2- try to play the minimum amount of games possible, i think its 4 matches per session.

3- never run out. make as many mistakes as possible, never play safe.

4- If you do want to win a match run up the inning's, but play someone who's a similar level SL4 at max. and when i mean run up the innings, you need atleast 20 innings if you go up a level, add 10.
 
StormHotRod300 said:
if you really want to play THE APA SYSTEM!!!!! this is your key to going to Vegas!!!!!

1- lose and lose alot lol expecially if your a newbie, cuz if you start as a 4, and lose you drop down to the lowest level.

2- try to play the minimum amount of games possible, i think its 4 matches per session.

3- never run out. make as many mistakes as possible, never play safe.

4- If you do want to win a match run up the inning's, but play someone who's a similar level SL4 at max. and when i mean run up the innings, you need atleast 20 innings if you go up a level, add 10.
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Holy smokes.
 
And we wonder why our sport does not get true sponsors

This type of activity is as bad or worse than the steroids of professional sports that we are watching on CNN and other news media. I have heard horror stories from both handicapped league systems. This is cheating and that system that provides for it should be changed and regulated with rules which are followed and continually updated to deal with the current situation.

Example player A plays in a league for years and is a player who regularly runs tables and tables and table, quits the league then comes back 2 years later and then starts at a lower rank since that is how the rules are set up.

To suggest any sense or idea on how to bend the system to ones favor for a game which we all enjoy and love is a human one, but it is not a moral one.
 
I don't know if it happens or not...I've never seen it... "sandbagging" is usually what the loser says the winner did.

you got beat

get over it

practice more and maybe he won't beat you again.

VNEA has a much better (though not perfect) way to do things it isn't a cryptic secret algorithm... its simple division # of points divided by number of games.. losing on purpose doesn't do you any good.. add in getting paid per point... most people want to get their money back.

I've never played APA but all I read from APA members is bad press.. they need to fix something.
 
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If you know someone is sandbagging just go up behind him/her and put a .25 cal. long nose in them. Leave enough sandbaggers on floor and word will get around, "don't to do that, it's very bad for your health". Johnnyt
 
softshot said:
I don't know if it happens or not...I've never seen it... "sandbagging" is usually what the loser says the winner did.

you got beat

get over it

practice more and maybe he won't beat you again.

VNEA has a much better (though not perfect) way to do things it isn't a cryptic secret algorithm... its simple division # of points divided by number of games.. losing on purpose doesn't do you any good.. add in getting paid per point... most people want to get their money back.

I've never played APA but all I read from APA members is bad press.. they need to fix something.
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I would love to join the Vnea, dont see too much in Southern California though.
 
The real problem lays with the APA themselves. Yes, its important to recruit new players, but with a 23 handicap total for each match, you virtually have to sandbag certain players. There just isn't an overflowing source of true 3 handicap players available. Most APA players just show up, don't practice and don't support the sport. I really believe that league play is almost singly responsible for killing pool.

tim
 
yep there are lots of sandbaggers in apa and all leagues for that matter, not much you can do about it, but as for the last statement, I don't know where you play league at but the league players in this area are the ones saving the pool rooms, and the bar I play out of has a lot of league teams, about half the players shoot more than just league night, they eat, drink, and spend all sorts of money, no, league players are not killing pool, infact I think they, myself included, are helping to keep pool halls open, and the bars we play at keep there tables in very nice condition, which brings in some of the top players in the area for weekly tournaments. Someday the leagues will figure out how to handicap better but until then try and have some fun and if you fill cheated, report it and then forget about it, it will only hurt your game and your mood. Nate.
 
Not fair Nate. Folks in Washington State are not in their right mind. They drive courtesly, are friendly and eco conscious. Can't compare them to folks in other parts of the country.

tim
 
RunoutalloverU...This is only true, if the league operator doesn't care. I had 80 teams (over 600 players) in my APA league, and I knew EVERY one of them. I also had a standard rule, that if you sandbagged, even once, you were automatically, and permanently raised to the top skill level. If you didn't like it...QUIT! I had NO sandbagging in my leagues, for the four years I ran them...ZERO!...and I'm very proud of that fact.:D

Scott Lee ~ former APA league operator
www.poolknowledge.com

RunoutalloverU said:
If you have a handicapped system people are going to sandbag, I mean literally there is no way around it. Not only is there no way to stop people from intentionally doing it, there is no way from stopping yourself from thinking people are doing it when they arent.
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When it comes to anything BUT nationals in Vegas, it's not "the APA". It's "your local APA league operator".

If you've got issues with the venue your regionals was held at - take it up with your LO. He (or she) is the person deciding on where to hold that competition.

That said, there may be other factors behind the choice of that venue that you don't know about. There well could be (and probably are) better venues in your LO's area - but who knows? Could be those places *didn't want* your regionals held there. Or the place that you did play at simply offered a better deal overall (to the LO, to the players, etc). Or other places may have had other things going on at that time and could not accomodate the crowds. Never can tell.

I know in my old league in Colorado - our LO had a three-county area. There were basically three venues in those three counties that were suitable for larger events. At one point, one of those was closed down (had been bought out, reopened later under new name). Another of those venues is owned by someone who isn't the easiest guy in the world to get along with (and hence, do business with). The third venue often ran their own events. So when it came down to scheduling events, sometimes our LO had to make compromises.
 
I wish you were kidding...but I suspect you are not. :rolleyes: This is all completely erroneous information.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

StormHotRod300 said:
if you really want to play THE APA SYSTEM!!!!! this is your key to going to Vegas!!!!!

1- lose and lose alot lol expecially if your a newbie, cuz if you start as a 4, and lose you drop down to the lowest level.

2- try to play the minimum amount of games possible, i think its 4 matches per session.

3- never run out. make as many mistakes as possible, never play safe.

4- If you do want to win a match run up the inning's, but play someone who's a similar level SL4 at max. and when i mean run up the innings, you need atleast 20 innings if you go up a level, add 10.
Click to expand...
 
Don't sandbag. It doesn't just effect you. It effects the skill levels of those who are actually playing fairly against you as well.

Ignore the advice to cheat. You will feel better when you win it fairly and you will have no reason to worry about being banned or disqualified from the league.
 
I've changed my way of thinking.

When I first got involved in APA leagues I used to think that sandbagging was rampant, but now I've relented and backed-off of my feelings somewhat. The reason is, that in the past two and a half years of playing APA I've found that in my own game (keep in mind that I am an 8-ball SL5) there are days when I shoot a skill level higher than I normally do, and on occasion I may shoot a skill level less than I'm rated. Every once in a great while, my play may even be TWO levels up or down. So, if someone who doesn't know me well catches me on a good day, and I get "in the zone", they may think I've been sandbagging, which I have never even considered, period!!! My wife (a SL3) often plays a level higher than she is rated, then the following week may not make three balls in a row and get creamed. Player inconsistency can appear to be sandbagging. Now I'm not denying the existence of sandbagging, I'm just saying that things aren't always what they seem.

Maniac
 
There is sandbagging, and yes, there is no way around it. I even wrote my LO this week about a team in our league that are all known sandbaggers. They go to vegas every year. Every year. They added a new player to their team who is now down to an SL3. Well, he is new to the league, but some of the guys on my team have known him for almost 20 years. We were sitting around, talking about the old days when he would run 80s and 90s in snooker. Ya, and he is a 3. It happens.

Ive only been to Vegas once, last year, and I only ran into one sandbagger. But it sucks how it was handled. We lost to the team 52-48. Their SL3 won 19-1 in about 4 innings. We looked him up after, he has had a number of cashes on the Joss 9ball tour. He was no SL3. The problem is, the team wasnt disqualified for another 2 rounds! Sure, it hurts them, but still hurts every team they beat on the way. Oh, and they had complaints issued (that cost $50 each to file) in each round before us. We were going to pay the $50 ourselves, but when they told us they got complaints the first few rounds, what good was our 'extra' going to do.
 
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i have never played in an apa league but i do play in 2 vnea leagues here in my area. in one league i have an 8.4 average and in the other i have an 8.87 average. the difference is 8.4 is good enough for 31st and the 8.97 is best in the other league. do i sandbag? no just for some reason i havent been able to figure out i cant pull it together for the one league while in the other i lead in ero's (eight ball run outs) and 10-0's and ill end the league with the top average. but what i have come to realise is that anywhere there is a handicapping system there will be sand baggers. dont get me wrong ppl may be very inconsistant but you can tell when someone is alot better then they are showing. i take pride in being the top shooter on both teams i play on so every week i play someone who will run-out on me if i leave them open. i do however remember a few years back when this area tried doing apa and they quit half-way through the season because no one liked the systems they used so they went back to vnea. personally i will never play in a tournament or league that will have me winning for instance 5 games before my oponent wins 2 or 3 because everyone knows in the game of 8-ball on a bar-box anyone can win at anytime no matter what there skill level. iv seen guys who cant normally run 3 balls run an entire rack before. and to say league play has killed the game makes no sense to me. every league has up to several hundred players which might spark an interest in pool in some. if you took away all leagues you would dramatically reduce the number of sales in tips, sticks, pretty much everything needed which in turn could cause the few sponsors pool does have to not have the money to sponsor events and so forth and so on.
 
bestkites said:
Hi there,
Just a topic for discussion...
Why do people need to be sand baggers? I was 1 game away to make it to the finals on my SL to the APA Nationals, on the regionals this weekend in Bakersfield until I found a sand bagger. It is unfortunate and people like that should be disqualified or bumped to the level they should be on. I am not not crying but I am venting lol. I am a SL5 and I was playing a guy that just got bumped to a 6 but actually should be at least a 7.
It gets worst when we go to Vegas and APA officials do not do anything about it on the spot, not after you loose the match.
Anyway, we played on bar tables that had cloth, nasty cloth (balls on my carpet roll faster than that).
Can't believe APA does the regionals at Corner Pocket in Bakersfield... No free practice tables, restrooms are the nastiest I have seen in my life, can't do a dump without people watching... Unbelievable.
Anyway, I did meet some really nice people there and the beer on draft was not that bad either!
Click to expand...
Yeah, just done with the regionals, and lost to a good strong 5. As for sandbagging... i guess i don't think of it that way too much. it all depends on their longevity and such. i.e. This strong 5 that I had played must have been dropped at some point from a 6/7. I noticed this also from his membership number. So the only thing I can do is my best.

But I do believe the venue's should be well thought out. IF it is true that the LO decides on the venue. I will definitely report it. We were at Cruiser's in Stuart, FL. Not the best for something for the regionals. It was only adequate. The LO should do some homework. If I were to make a checklist: a C- grade would have been given. Mind ya i don't really ask for much in regards to pool halls, but there should be some minimums. Yeah, there was a lack of practice tables. All I can say is, if something is not provided, then an alternate solution should be somewhat readily available.
 
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