Sandbagging

coolcue

coolcue

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Having been following some of the APA threads it has become apparent that there are some very well informed players on this site. I have just returned to playing after a 40 yr hiatus, and I play in an APA league.

My question is: can someone explain the basic of sandbagging and how the innings effect the the skill level of a player. I have spoken to a few people in the league but they seem to be evasive for whatever reason. Maybe they don't really know and understand how it works. Thus, I am here where I see a great knowledge base of people. Please keep it simple.
My hiatus began 40 yrs ago when i was around 30 yrs old. The steel trap mind ?????? has accumulated some rust.:cool::confused:
 
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coolcue said:
Having been following some of the APA threads it has become apparent that there are some very well informed players on this site. I have just returned to playing after a 40 yr hiatus, and I play in an APA league.

My question is: can someone explain the basic of sandbagging and how the innings effect the the skill level of a player. I have spoken to a few people in the league but they seem to be evasive for whatever reason. Maybe they don't really know and understand how it works. Thus, I am here where I see a great knowledge base of people. Please keep it simple.
My hiatus began 40 yrs ago when i was around 30 yrs old. The steel trap mind ?????? has accumulated some rust.:cool::confused:
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Sandbagging is a reference to cheating. Simply put, it means you're either losing intentionally or lengthing the duration of a game so that your handicap ends up being lower than your true speed. I see it happen in the APA all the time. I don't even bother complaining anymore. If I feel someone is deliberately missing, I simply mark it as a defensive shot.
 
The short version is that the more innings your game goes, the lower your handicap is likely to be. (There are a number of variables, but innings played is the main component.) People "sandbag" by padding their innings, intentionally missing shots to lengthen the game.

The antidote to that is the scorekeeper recognizing that the shot wasn't an actual attempt to be made, and marking it as a "Defensive Shot", which is backed out of the calculations for handicap.

Sandbagging is cheating. Many claim that you have to do it in order to "compete". That is another thread, beaten multiple times daily.
 
In absolute simplest terms, your SL is based on an average innings per rack , corrected for defensive shots.

There's a 'top secret' formula used to smooth out the variables and is basically applied only to a fixed number of your last quantity of matches to balance non-typical performances.
 
I've always been curious about this also. Everyone says it goes by how many innings...so I just play 9 ball and I am a 7. How many innings am I expected to have as a 7; 8 or a 9? If I get to 55 and there are 13 innings in the match, I assume that it pretty good. But what if there are 23?
 
doitforthegame said:
I've always been curious about this also. Everyone says it goes by how many innings...so I just play 9 ball and I am a 7. How many innings am I expected to have as a 7; 8 or a 9? If I get to 55 and there are 13 innings in the match, I assume that it pretty good. But what if there are 23?
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I always half thought that maybe the average is also the average number of balls you make, factoring in misses and safes and everything else. So if you average 7 in games of 9 ball, you're doing really well and running out a lot. I expect 3's to make about 3 balls at most but occasionally hit 5 and occasionally zero.
 
Everything I spoke about is in reference to 8-ball. As I'm not in the 9-ball league, I don't know how that system works. Sorry I didn't point that out in my earlier post.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Sandbagging is a reference to cheating. Simply put, it means you're either losing intentionally or lengthing the duration of a game so that your handicap ends up being lower than your true speed. I see it happen in the APA all the time. I don't even bother complaining anymore. If I feel someone is deliberately missing, I simply mark it as a defensive shot.
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How is that defensive shot recorded in the APA books? There are two score keepers and both sheets are turned in. You mark a safe and on the other score sheet it is marked as a missed ball. Who will make that definition, LO, higher up, or does the computer make that decision when it is entered into the data base?
 
One thing to keep in mind about the APA formula is your adjusted innings. If you lose a match, you get the actual number of innings you had in your games. If you win, and get more innings than someone of your skill level is supposed to, your innings are adjusted based on your winning percentage.

Example of loss: I am ranked a 7, lose a match, and win 2 games in a total of 10 innings. I get the average of 5 applied to my rank. The more I had, the more would be applied. I could be ranked a 7, and if I had 20 innings a game and lost the match, the 20 average would apply.

Example of win: I am ranked a 7 and win my match with 5 games in 50 total innings. This gives me an average of 10 per game, but since I won my match, I don't get that average. I get my innings adjusted based on my winning percentage.

Basically, it is not possible to sandbag while winning. This fact eludes many people, and I always get a laugh watching people try and run up their innings while playing a lower ranked player and still win.

By the way, I don't like or condone sandbagging. I also don't like the fact that I can't make a team of my friends, and play with them even if they move up. Sadlly, that is the way the APA is designed with the points/match cap. They want teams to split into multiple teams as often as possible. So, if they are going to design their league as such, they must expect people to sandbag just to keep their team together. If they raise the cap a bit, or got rid of it like BCA, sandbagging would be GREATLY reduced.
 
Thank you all for the info. It is now a little clearer to understand and I can watch for the happenings.:wink::wink:
 
Frank...Here's how I did it, as an APA LO...if on two scoresheets there was a major discrepancy in defensive shots marked (as in one has zero for a match, and the other has 10), I would contact both team captains for an explaination of what happened in the match (this would be a face to face meeting). If they can't agree, I would likely take the middle ground, marking 5 defensive shots for the match. I always suggested to my teams that if they suspected sandbagging, or a deliberately missed shot, to mark it defensive, whether the other team agreed or not. I've said this before, but in four years, in my league area, there was almost NO sandbagging. One reason was that if you were caught, I made you a permanent "7" (sandbag all you want as a 7). The other option was to hit the door. In four years, and over 1000 players, I had to kick only two people out...and that was for fighting, not sandbagging. My league was small, by comparison (>100 teams), and I could keep track of, and manage all my players (especially being an instructor). Large operators probably have a tough time keeping sandbagging to a minimum...but some still manage to do it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

dabarbr said:
How is that defensive shot recorded in the APA books? There are two score keepers and both sheets are turned in. You mark a safe and on the other score sheet it is marked as a missed ball. Who will make that definition, LO, higher up, or does the computer make that decision when it is entered into the data base?
Click to expand...
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Sandbagging is a reference to cheating. Simply put, it means you're either losing intentionally or lengthing the duration of a game so that your handicap ends up being lower than your true speed. I see it happen in the APA all the time. I don't even bother complaining anymore. If I feel someone is deliberately missing, I simply mark it as a defensive shot.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Don't worry about trying to match the other team's inning count. It doesn't matter once it goes in the envelope.
 
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