SBE 2011 New Division

[uwate]

The SBE could do what they do at the BCAs, which is to let in virtually any none touring pro, but if they cash in a specific top % (like top 16) they are not allowed to play again and instead get moved to the "masters/shortstop/regional pro" division. The SBE has the lists of who has cashed, it wouldnt be hard for them to create the SBE "Masters" list.

The real true test to me of an amateur is whether they truly bust their asses day in and day out working at a non pool job. If they really work 50hrs a week and then go home to a family and play pool maybe 10-20 hrs a month, then I dont care how good they play, they are an amateur. Also, its not just that they have a job but a true amateur has no confusion as to which job he has is his career. Pro level players are confused alot on this issue, amateurs are not. Alot of times the lower tiered pros work day jobs, really as a means to keeping the pool show going while there is a lull in the action.

 

[cardiac kid]

The only thing that seperates an amature from a pro today is skill level...In a perfect world it would be easy to notice a difference. A pro would have salary, and amature would not.

It is simple pool is a sport filled with pro skill level players playing in an amature format. Some have good paying jobs as spokesmen. But there are very few I know of zero that make it on a salary to play pool???

I am pretty sure that none of the guys in the SBE amature tourney had a paycheck waiting on them should they have failed....That is what a pro pool player would get. A check for being there win, or not.

You can use the skill level thing, but that wont get you coffee and a doughnut should you lose, therfore it is not a job...

A pro in anything means you get paid in my book.

Jamison,

You answered your own question! It is a job. If you don't cash in an event, you don't eat. It is your only source of income. That my friend is my simple definition of a professional player.

Receiving a check? Perhaps you are refering to a situation like John Schmidt's last thread. Looking for a room to sponsor him. Allow him to be the house pro. Perhaps pay him a weekly wage. Is that your definition of a professional pool player?

I'm retired. Doesn't matter if I cash or not. Honestly, it's more fun to cash. I do know several players from our area who absolutely need to cash. They are driven to cash. It is their only job. They are professional pool players. Why should they be allowed to compete directly with people who play primarily just for the fun of it? Lets cut through the crap. That sentence is what this entire thread is really about. Allowing some of these guys into an amateur event is allowing them to steal, period. If you want to allow them to play, stop calling it a amateur event. Just call it an open event. Be honest, we're all adults here.

Lyn

 

[cookie man]

cookieman,

You missed the connection. The poster was discussing Mr Price winning the VNEA Open division some years ago. Mr Price also won the SBE Amateur in 2009. Won this years SBE Seniors. A few years ago, he also managed to win the Derby City Bank Pool event against the World's best players. Before the VNEA. If he is not a professional pool player, who is? If Allen Senior or Junior didn't notice his entry into the Seniors this year, shame on them. They moved Dave Daya to the "pro" event after winning the SBE Seniors and Valley Forge 8 Ball last year. Sure knew who he was!

Lyn

No missed connection. I believe larry price played in the pro event at SBE, so how was he also allowed to play in the seniors?

 

[cardiac kid]

No missed connection. I believe larry price played in the pro event at SBE, so how was he also allowed to play in the seniors?

Wow cookie man, I was not aware Larry had played in the SBE Pro 10 Ball event. His name was only mentioned as winner of the SBE Amateur Seniors. Is it possible he played in the Pro / Am event instead? Now I'm flabergasted! If true, its my error and my apology. In the "Pro" event, my only interest was checking on the progress of two local players. Never looked at the complete board.

Lyn

 

[Wedge]

Larry Price

Wow cookie man, I was not aware Larry had played in the SBE Pro 10 Ball event. His name was only mentioned as winner of the SBE Amateur Seniors. Is it possible he played in the Pro / Am event instead? Now I'm flabergasted! If true, its my error and my apology. In the "Pro" event, my only interest was checking on the progress of two local players. Never looked at the complete board.

Lyn

Larry Price played in the Pro Event...Cookie Man is correct!

 

[iusedtoberich]

This event gets about 1000 dedicated players every year. Do you really think with a field that large, a "league player" is going to win? In a field that large, it will take a JAM UP player to win.

I've had a few of my buddies cash several years and they were B players. They cashed for the small money.

The people who have won the event, or cashed in the top 16 have been A and above players. On the last thread about this, one guy said he and his group of 2 buddies finished top 16 the past two years, yet he complained the "pros" were in it (All three guys are A players). How can you complain if you are an A player and you get a top 16 finish in a field of 1000 two years in a row? That is a great accomplishment.

I also believe most regional TOP players are allowed to play in the amateur until they win the event. From that point on, they are barred from the amateur.

To the original poster, the SBE does have the Pro-Am event, which welcomes ANY level player, on the bar tables.

 

[Wedge]

Manny Chau

Manny Chau won the Maryland State 10 Ball Championship last night beating Brandon Shuf in the finals...some amateur!!!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Manny Chau won the Maryland State 10 Ball Championship last night beating Brandon Shuf in the finals...some amateur!!!

Since when aren't people allowed to win?

So by your thinking, anyone that may have moderate success at the regional level is automatically a pro?

Please give me your criteria for determining a professional player, who is no longer just an amateur that plays good.
Most of the people that i know, don't consider shortstops and open players, professionals.

Can i ask you something?
What would you say your current speed is? Honestly. A, A-B, B, B-C, APA 5, BCA whatever?. How good do you play so we can have some perspective.
Have you ever won something regionally?
Ever beat a "name"?

Cause honestly, if you aren't an A player, you probably have little chance to ever win this tournament.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Another perspective specifically for the SBE amateur event: If you look at the past winners, they are all known top regional players. And they've probably all played and cashed in the amateur event numerous times and are only barred once they win. AND, Allen probably knows them personally, as many of them are from the NE region and have come through the ranks right in his back yard (like Josh Brothers).

Perhaps this is the way Allen wants it? Maybe because Allen is a world class pro, his viewpoint of what players should and should not be allowed to play is biased to a higher level. He successfully keeps out the Archers, Coreys, Hatch, SVB, from the Amateur event. But he allows the Brother's, the Roberto's, the Vidal's to play (until one of them wins). There is CLEARLY a huge gap in ability between the two groups of players I just listed.

This is how its always been at the SBE. The national and world class pros are for the pro event, and the top regional players are for the Amateur event.

And there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Just remember this, the B and A players complaining about the regional players "stealing", what do you think the D and C level league players think when they come across an A player in this event? Probably the same thing. So again, its all a matter of:
1. perspective (Allens perspective of who is a pro is different than the C or B level player)
2. crybaby tendencies
3. playing the odds that you can still cash because of the luck of the draw
4. Just having a good time at the tournament, and if you happen to get lucky and play very well, you might cash in a national field.

 

[JamisonNeu]

Jamison,

You answered your own question! It is a job. If you don't cash in an event, you don't eat. It is your only source of income. That my friend is my simple definition of a professional player.

Receiving a check? Perhaps you are refering to a situation like John Schmidt's last thread. Looking for a room to sponsor him. Allow him to be the house pro. Perhaps pay him a weekly wage. Is that your definition of a professional pool player?

Lyn

No, like the definition of an amature. An amature is someone that places their own money into a purse for someone else to decide how it is passed back out.

The definition of a pro...someone that gets paid to perform any given task...now there are more than one definition. I have also read to be an expert at any given task.

So when I said before in a perfect world pro pool players get paid, and amatures dont...I meant from the company that owns the pro's sports contract. However that maybe written up. What the pro wins would be games...then a ring or trophy for the year end, but he would know how much cash he was expected to recieve like everyone else that is a pro.

 

[Wedge]

Skill Level

Since when aren't people allowed to win?

So by your thinking, anyone that may have moderate success at the regional level is automatically a pro?

Please give me your criteria for determining a professional player, who is no longer just an amateur that plays good.
Most of the people that i know, don't consider shortstops and open players, professionals.

Can i ask you something?
What would you say your current speed is? Honestly. A, A-B, B, B-C, APA 5, BCA whatever?. How good do you play so we can have some perspective.
Have you ever won something regionally?
Ever beat a "name"?


I am a APA SL8 in 9 Ball and SL7 in 8 Ball. By the way, I did not play at the SBE this year. I was just making a point about fairness. I realize this is a difficult topic. There appears to be good arguments on both sides!

 

[1129]

The SBE could do what they do at the BCAs, which is to let in virtually any none touring pro, but if they cash in a specific top % (like top 16) they are not allowed to play again and instead get moved to the "masters/shortstop/regional pro" division. The SBE has the lists of who has cashed, it wouldnt be hard for them to create the SBE "Masters" list.

The real true test to me of an amateur is whether they truly bust their asses day in and day out working at a non pool job. If they really work 50hrs a week and then go home to a family and play pool maybe 10-20 hrs a month, then I dont care how good they play, they are an amateur. Also, its not just that they have a job but a true amateur has no confusion as to which job he has is his career. Pro level players are confused alot on this issue, amateurs are not. Alot of times the lower tiered pros work day jobs, really as a means to keeping the pool show going while there is a lull in the action.

Does this qualify Donny Mills as an amateur?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Does this qualify Donny Mills as an amateur?

lol, yes it would. And it would also qualify Steve Mizerak as an amateur (full time highschool teacher), and it would also qualify George Breedlove as an amateur, and I'm sure many others we could come up with a list of...

Pool isn't like other organized sports where you can make a line between amateur and pro based on salary due to endorsements and sponsorships. Simply because if you did that, you might have 20 pros in the world, and they would be the Busty's the SVB's the Archers, and thats it.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You know. Maybe that is just a reflection of different personalities in the game.

As far as the expo is concerned, NOT ONCE did i ever complain because i lost to a better player.
I might have bittched because they snapped a 9 in hill hill, i might have complained that my break sucked, i might have even been livid that they rolled all over me and crapped a bunch of 9's in, or had a cheering section that was sharking me.
But i never complained if they had more skill then i did. EVER.

All losing did is make me want to better my game till i could GUT them and leave them dead on the side of the table.
And if that never happened? Oh well, at least i tried, but i'll be dammed if i am ever gonna cry about being out-skilled.

Plus, this event is on BAR TABLES.
It's not the Amateur Open on 9fts. It's on BAR tables, and i think that i can almost guarantee, that the gap between top tier regional amateurs and the rest of the pack, would widen if it was held on big tables.
So in that sense, IT'S NOT EVEN THE SAME GAME!
All the top regional guys are playing in tours that have 9ft tables.
So if anything, the bar table is a great equalizer.

There has been only one time in the history of the expo that i can remember where you could pick the winner before the tournament even started.
Not pick the winner from a group of high level players, but i'm talking about that it was virtually guaranteed that this guy won.
That was back in the day when Rodney won it. And we all knew he was gonna win it, because he had come to town a bunch of times, and gambled his brains out with the best. And SINCE he was a great player, who had yet to break into the national pro scene, he was afforded his opportunity to play because he was still an amateur, and he won and from that point on, he wasn't allowed to play in the amateur event ever again.
Did that stop ANY of the locals from playing that year? Nope. If anything, most of them wanted to be the guy who could claim that they knocked him out of the tournament, and one of them actually HAD that chance, until he dogged it.


LOSING, is a part of the game.
And if you don't like losing. TRY HARDER!


This argument will never end. WHY?
Because if they create a "special" tournament so that no known top regional guys can play in, all that means is that some unknown guy is gonna play in that no top guy event, and spark it up.
When that happens, it's going to be the same exact thing, moaning and complaining about how such and such sneaked into the tournament and won, and how he should be a pro. LOL

As long as there is only one winner and 800+ losers, the complaining and crybabying will never end.