Scam or failed business venture?

Hey Dude,

You missed the point. If blame is to go around it should be shared by many more than the advertisers like Watchez stated.

When the top ranked pros, and the people who are respected in the pool industry, lend their name to a venture then they are in part giving that venture respect.

Of course that was most likely KT's idea. Bring in the top names in the game and everyone else will follow. It did work to a degree. Did anyone really think that the HOF'ers deserved, or were worth, $30,000 each. I am sure that they all appreciated the gift but they sure didn't have a fan base that came along with them.

The HOF'ers sure have no reason to complain. They all came out way ahead.

I wonder if Rempe and Hall had a feeling about Reno? Or were tipped off.

Jake
 
Who's to blame?

Who is to blame?


jjinfla said:
You want to play the blame game then let's play.

I would start with Mike Sigel. Does anyone here not believe that Mike had a pidgeon in Kevin......Then we can move to the other players. Look at all the top players who jumped aboard with both feet. Charlie Williams, Alan Hopkins, Ursetti have been in the business for a long time and have many sources of information. Yet they thought it was a good deal. How about Allison Fisher and Earl Strickland didn't they do their research before they jumped aboard?
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Mike Sigel, absolutely.
Deno Andrews, with out a doubt...he's not working in the cafeteria. Yes
KT, for believing he could and has the god given right to lie to any sucker.
IPT Players who defended the IPT and even chastised members of the board who dared not believe in KT or the economics, For sure!

Pro's who just showed up and hoped for the best. Why it's what they do? Fish gotta swim, Birds gotta fly, and Pool players play with little security. Not a chance.

jjinfla said:
At Orlando the rumor was that it cost Kevin 4 million dollars to produce the show. That is more money than I can reasonably deal with, but it sure does sound like an awful lot. Perhaps the figures were exaggerated but if you were at Orlando then you know that whatever he spent it was an awful lot.
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They spent what they wanted. Nobody made fun of the WPC, US Open, or DCC because they didn't have an alien "Mothership" hovering over the TV Table. The only positive as I see it about the IPT is I think we settled the age old discussion about whether the women could compete against the men. Based on the current standings I would say.....:p
 
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Hey Jake,
<<Why contact them? All they did was advertize at IPT events.>> I am not suggesting that anyone should or should not contact sponsors but that is an age old practice when anyone has a gripe about the airing of any given program. And a pretty effective one at that.

Regards,
Jim
 
Nick B said:
I really miss the start your own comments. In the beginning whenever a non-pro-IPTer would ask even the most common sense question or fail to drink the kool-aid with great abandon they where told to..."start your own tour with your own money and you can make the rules!". Well I don't see all but a few of them showing and remorse or humility now. Just silence...the sweat sound of all quiet.

Tomorrow if the players get their cheques I'm sure they'll come out shaking their bums in the air...screaming from the highest mountains...I told you it was all good. Well the reality is it is not. All our arm chair quarterbacking is fun yet useless. We don't know what KT's intentions were. Only two things are certain:
1. The man's long documented past
2. They way he treats his outstanding debts/creditors.

This speaks everything about the man's credibility. Scam is a relative thing. Most of us who didn't believe took in the facts as we knew them and the seemingly over reaching, unsustainable payouts and smelt something fishy. Gentlemen like KT are masters of using peoples greed, sorrow or vanity against them. Generally these are most effective against those who can least afford it. The poor, the sick, the uneducated.

Question:
What if what happened to Jay H happened to a lesser know or meeker member of this community?
Answer:
He doesn't get paid.

The facts as I see them:
- Not everyone on this forum would throw it all away to play pool professionally (assuming they had the skill). Most of us just love this game.
- If your not willing to gamble your net worth away on a pool tour, you do have a right to question IPT's conduct.
- KT's reputation was horrible to begin with. Now Deno's isn't much better.
- Those who acted as forum publisher for the IPT even after Reno fiasco should be suitably ashamed.
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:D :D

What about a collective apology thread from the KT Lovers to the IPT Haters. LOL:D

It better happen quick tho before the New Improved IPT starts .[ with a Guaranteed $1,000,000 minimum.:rolleyes: ]

Gabber.
 
Okay guys. I'll go first.

Not.

Anyway here is what is really happening. KT got pissed that players disrespected him and the game by crawling up on the tables like monkeys making asses of themselves. So he packed his suitcase full of money and told Deno he was going on a cruise.

He is going to let everyone stew about that mess. Let them think about how good they had it and how little they did to promote the IPT. Then he will come back and hold a meeting of all the players from Reno.

Think anyone would miss it?

At the meeting he is going to tell everyone what is expected of them in the future and if they do not play ball with him and by his rules the same thing will happen again. How he will expect each and every one of them to promote the IPT and SELL tickets to the Chicago event. Then he will pass out checks from Reno with a 10% bonus, except for the guys who climbed up on the tables.

Well, I can dream can't I?

When it does happen I expect all the naysayers to be humble and offer me their sincere apology. And of course they would have to swear that they will never have a negative thought about the IPT again.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Okay guys. I'll go first.

Not.

Anyway here is what is really happening. KT got pissed that players disrespected him and the game by crawling up on the tables like monkeys making asses of themselves. So he packed his suitcase full of money and told Deno he was going on a cruise.

He is going to let everyone stew about that mess. Let them think about how good they had it and how little they did to promote the IPT. Then he will come back and hold a meeting of all the players from Reno.

Think anyone would miss it?

At the meeting he is going to tell everyone what is expected of them in the future and if they do not play ball with him and by his rules the same thing will happen again. How he will expect each and every one of them to promote the IPT and SELL tickets to the Chicago event. Then he will pass out checks from Reno with a 10% bonus, except for the guys who climbed up on the tables.

Well, I can dream can't I?

When it does happen I expect all the naysayers to be humble and offer me their sincere apology. And of course they would have to swear that they will never have a negative thought about the IPT again.

Jake
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Hey Jake, Let me have a hit of that stuff you're smoking.
 
av84fun said:
<<He dumped some money in, which he will write off, >>

Southpaw, with all due respect, you have no earthly idea how much if any money KT personally "dumped in."

Secondly, taking tax write offs is NOT a profit-making exercise. To have a tax loss write off, you must have LOST money. Fine, you may lose LESS because you can use those losses to offset other income but no one has ever gotten rich by taking tax losses.

But let's look at the word "scam" that has been so often used. In its broadest sense...according to Webster, it means ": a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation "

So BROADLY, if a tournament is created offering great sums of money with respect to which the promoter gave the impression of "guarantees" or a relative certainty of paying out what was "promised" and the payouts didn't take place, then that would, I must admit, be a "scam" in the broadest sense.

But in common usage, "scam" is usually taken to mean that the "scam artist" made money off the scheme. If a house painter promises a primer coat and two coats of paint and only slaps on one coat of paint without priming, then he has run a scam and has profitted from it.

I don't think there is any evidence that KT knew in advance that the IPT would not take the world by storm and create a frenzie of media revenue so I have to side with Jake that if the IPT folds or is hugely downsized in some buy out by Ho or someone else, it would qualify more as a failed business venture based, as most such failures are, on massive over-optimism than on a "scam" wherein someone was cheated and the scammer runs off with a lot of ill-gotten profits.
Regards,
Jim
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Please tell me you havent bought one of KTs "Natural Cure" books.....I hope you are a little smarter than that.

Southpaw
 
GreatWyrm said:
Thanks for the info Bob.

Not sure about how many people were actually at the finals of the KOTH as we didn't get tickets for that final match and flew home. I'd say the "Mothership" stage they had for the finals could probably hold about 400 people, maybe a little less, and it seemed like it was full when I watched the Efren/Sigel match on TV.....
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The stands at KOTH were nearly full from "regular" audience members. I was seated in the back row (best viewing angle) and ten minutes before the kick-off, lots of well-dressed young people appeared at the top of the bleachers and started filtering into all the empty seats. Some of them remained standing in back. I talked to some of them later, and they were interested in getting another event on their resumes. I think they weren't actually paid.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The stands at KOTH were nearly full from "regular" audience members. I was seated in the back row (best viewing angle) and ten minutes before the kick-off, lots of well-dressed young people appeared at the top of the bleachers and started filtering into all the empty seats. Some of them remained standing in back. I talked to some of them later, and they were interested in getting another event on their resumes. I think they weren't actually paid.
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That's right i forgot about that. One hot chick, maybe 22 or so, in an evening dress was escorted to a front row seat. The camera man came over and had a discussion with her and within a minute or two he zoomed in on the crowd and her in particular. There were other "hot" chicks in evening gowns scattered about, unaccompanied and obvious shills. I dont really object to this. Sometime you have to prime the pump a bit.
 
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Nostroke said:
....... There were other "hot" chicks in evening gowns scattered about, unaccompanied and obvious shills. I dont really object to this.....
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Nostroke bud......promise me that if I ever object to the presence of hot young chicks in evening gowns you'll shoot me and bury me:)
 
Nostroke said:
Sometime you have to prime the pump a bit.
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I think the only pump that KT is priming right about now is his own. If I was a reputed con man and could still get masses to believe my nonsense and do exactly as I said I would have someone else priming my pump as I'm sure he does 24 hours a day. :)
 
jjinfla said:
I knew that was coming when I was typing.

It must be in the water.
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You've got LSD in the water in Florida ? Cool ! That explains a few of the tampatubsters posts too !

Dave
 
If it could be proven that tournaments were held where there was a reasonable doubt that prizes would be funded, the company directors could be charged with fraud. Almost every state has laws regarding funds held in trust. If a competent legal team got ahold of KT and the board, they could have a field day with them on the issue of trust funds.


Chris
 
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TATE said:
If it could be proven that tournaments were held where there was a reasonable doubt that prizes would be funded, the company directors could be charged with fraud. Almost every state has laws regarding funds held in trust. If a competent legal team got ahold of KT and the board, they could have a field day with them on the issue of trust funds.


Chris
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When I posted this, I figured that someone would argue with me. Then I would have admitted they were right, because the fact is, I don't believe my own post.

If the players don't get paid and IPT closes, they will just be unsecured creditors in a long line in bankruptcy court.

This is sad, really sad.

Chris
 
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Chris... as the days go by, the inevitable FUTURE becomes clearer. No word & no money speaks VOLUMES about the future. Even if something is done to dispell the happenings of late, will the ugly beast rear it's head again. Trust is too fragile for anyone to mistreat.

It is too bad that a REAL International Pool Tour did not develop. A REAL Tour would have been a godsend for all the people around the world, that like the Game of Billiards & Pool. In time, the TOUR could have grown to include 9-Ball, One-Pocket, Straight Ppool & 3C Billiards.

The support would have soon grown to big numbers & large audiences. The advertisers would have come & the news media would have become involved. The Equipment Manufacturers would have enjoyed some new customers & become Sponsors for the Players. The Professional Players would have become businessmen instead of Hustlers.

A REAL Tour would have been the foundation for Pool & Billiards to be a 1st Class Olympic Event. Then Pool & Billiards would become a Sport for kids in High School & College to enjoy. A REAL Tour meant that much to the Sport.
 
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