I would wait for more data than take a mere mortal's word. Because we all stroke, hit differently. They may look alike but they are not. If it's my wallet I spend $$ from low to up in price as I see and understand the proof. Not top to bottom. Streaming could help if they would announce type cue, tip type etc. They do it in Golf all the time.
Scientist explains why laminated tips perform as they do
- Thread starter arnaldo
- Start date
I would wait for more data than take a mere mortal's word. Because we all stroke, hit differently. They may look alike but they are not. If it's my wallet I spend $$ from low to up in price as I see and understand the proof. Not top to bottom. Streaming could help if they would announce type cue, tip type etc. They do it in Golf all the time.
It's all in the mind of the beholder.
Good advice and facts. Mosconi just put his cue down and said that's enough or he'd still be going. Even if one were to buy 2000 tips you'd need to keep em in a vacuum to preserve. More important to find level of soft to hard needed tor one's comfort and confidence. Heard Tom Brady will bring out a soft layered pigskin Super Bowl.
A Pro would play with Tasmanian Devil hide if he were paid to use it ! Some synthetic company is going to put the leather dudes out of business. tick tick tick........
Ft. Worth Texas is the best in the United States right now
Anyone can enter, I was at one with Jeremy Jones, Buddy Hall, Robert Clark, TJ Davis, Erman Bullard, Coy Lee, and several other top level players. You have to understand the level of play around Ft. Worth Texas is the best in the United States right now, there's 20 players that can play flawless matches, more if you include Dallas and it's suburbs.
Anyone can enter, I was at one with Jeremy Jones, Buddy Hall, Robert Clark, TJ Davis, Erman Bullard, Coy Lee, and several other top level players. You have to understand the level of play around Ft. Worth Texas is the best in the United States right now, there's 20 players that can play flawless matches, more if you include Dallas and it's suburbs.
Thanks for the reply, CJ, which really gives us a full view of the great (and enviable) circumstances in your area.
The synergistic game-elevating effect of so many high level players -- both pros, semi-pros, and plenty of regional champs -- in those competitions must be electric to witness.
Is it in the realm of possibility that videos of some of these events will occasionally appear on Youtube as happens with competitions in other regions of the country? I'm sure that many AZB-ers living far from Fort Worth would really enjoy seeing that exciting action. Sounds remarkable to behold, even when remotely spectating via computer or TV screen.
Arnaldo
The synergistic game-elevating effect of so many high level players -- both pros, semi-pros, and plenty of regional champs -- in those competitions must be electric to witness.
Is it in the realm of possibility that videos of some of these events will occasionally appear on Youtube as happens with competitions in other regions of the country? I'm sure that many AZB-ers living far from Fort Worth would really enjoy seeing that exciting action. Sounds remarkable to behold, even when remotely spectating via computer or TV screen.
Arnaldo
The dumbassery is strong earlier in the thread so I will leave that alone and address the idea of a synthetic replacing leather soon... It will happen... There is a reason Outsville starts with leather... Leather is perfect simply because of the way it performs under compression.... The way it follows certain laws is so completely minutely different than any existing synthetic base that we are still a fews years away....
I started this trip in the early 90s with future tips... 20 years later... Everyone is in the same spot.... or not... our first Synthetic comes out next month.... It's a break tip....
Chris
First. Thanks for Dr Kohler's thoughts on this.
I would add that this is a simplistic look at the subject though. And, I would be surprised if he said didn't say something similar. As previously mentioned, you must add milk duds and other chemical processes that virtually every tip is treated with today. Also, thickness of layers and type of leather. And, as you mentioned, adhesives. I would also add how the tip is packaged and transported (air tight?, extreme humidity, extreme weather - like shipping during extreme cold or hot weather). How your cue repairman treats your tip (does he apply too much heat while trimming or burnishing the tip, is his glue fresh, does he saturate the tip with glue to seal tip prior to applyication, does he store tips in controlled surroundings). There are so many variables that can alter your tip's performance.
It seems to me that this would be inevitable. But the fact that it's taken 20 years is not surprising. So many variables in dealing with tips. And all the individual preferences among pool players (and many who hate change). Not to mention a really small market with mostly cheapskates, like myself. Oh yeah, and now China knockoffs certainly around the corner. Good luck with this, but I'm not envious of your journey ahead.
They are the Nutz. They set a completely new standard in tips and I've played with them all. No way anyone could have an educated opinion without first trying them
A friend and I tested tips along with shafts to see how much spin a particular combination gets. Between the two of us we had maybe 6 different tip/shaft combos.
With a standard shaft and one peice tip, we were both getting to about A spot with the cueball, with a laminted tip and a LD shaft (his Predator 314-2) we got to B which was the most spin we could get, a few times we were able to get to the short rail not even touching the side with an LD shaft and laminated tip. A laminated tip with standard shaft and a LD shaft with a regular tip were in the middle of those, roughly in the same areas. I don't remember the exact ball positions but that was the test we played around with, use low right and see how far up-table we can swing the cueball to. We both shot with each combination 3-4-5 times and the area we could get to was consisten in all the tries.
The only way that this test will work at all is if you are able to do 6 things. Place the cue ball(1) and object ball(2) at the exact same place every time. You have to hit the OB to the exact same point in the pocket every time(3). You also have to hit the shot with the same speed every time(4). You also have to hit the same place on the cue ball every time(5). You also need to make sure that the balls are fully cleaned between each shot(6).
If anyone of these steps is not the same for each attempt then the results for the test are invalid.
What you are testing is far more complicated that you are making it out to be.
Only a robot could accomplish this test.
While the test conditions you describe and the use of a robot would be better, real world testing is valid. The more variables that are introduced into any test increases the number of repetitions that are needed to be confident of the primary result you are trying to understand. Dr. Dave studies cue ball squirt for 4 different tip types using 3 people and 5-7 repetitions (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVD-15.htm). Based on the little we know, the test conditions cited by hang-the-9 for this test do not support much/any confidence in their conclusions. But I admire their desire to answer this question to their own level of satisfaction by performing tests rather than to rely on rumor, lore, gossip, or the scientific expertise of most pool players. Apparently, they did not feel a need to perform more testing to make their own choices.
Yes, the shot they chose has way too many variables to control: exactly how you hit the CB being the main one.
Me too.
Fine by me, but readers should understand they're not making truly informed choices.
pj
chgo
I also like Ki-tech tips. I've tried the ultraskins, Kamuis, Tiger, Zan, etc.
I prefer Ki-tech. Therefore I will continue to play with them. I encourage the rest of you to play with what works for you.
As far as spin application, I don't understand why people use so much sidespin. Learn to play better position while staying closer to centerball. Or maybe people would rather spend their time arguing on here over silly bullsh*t instead of putting hours into practice.
I prefer Ki-tech. Therefore I will continue to play with them. I encourage the rest of you to play with what works for you.
As far as spin application, I don't understand why people use so much sidespin. Learn to play better position while staying closer to centerball. Or maybe people would rather spend their time arguing on here over silly bullsh*t instead of putting hours into practice.
:thumbup:
Sorry...robots don't shoot pool. Pool shooters can tell the difference.
This is not debatable. If you shoot pool, you know the difference.
Okay...if you suck at pool then you just don't know.
Common sense is a great thing to have.:smile:
RBC
Deceased
Poolguy
You're right, robots don't play pool. But then again, they're not supposed to either.
I agree that pool players can definitely tell the difference between tips, I would also have to question if what they see as the difference comes strictly from it being layered or not. Since there are no 2 tips, one being layered and one not, that are supposed to be exactly they same I think it would be impossible to tell.
Here's what I do know.
I know players who swear they get better spin or control or whatever with regular tips.
I also know players who make the same claim about layered tips.
Both are right, when it comes to themselves, and both are wrong when it comes to everyone else.
From my personal experience, I don't see any specific performance or playing characteristic difference based solely on whether a tip is layered or not. I certainly haven't tried them all, but I do get plenty of tips sent my way, and I am a pool player. Have been for more than 20 years. How much more I'm just not sayin! lol.
We choose layerd tips as the standard for our cue shafts because they are certainly more consistent from tip to tip. We have far fewer "bad" tips which saves us the time of having to cut them off and put another one on. We pay quite a bit more for layered tips than we would if we used the typical regulars like LePro or Triangle, but the time savings far out weight the savings.
What it all boils down to is play with what you like, and let the next guy do the same.
This part is for anyone and everyone who cares to read it. It's not specifically for you, poolguy, but it could be if you so choose.
It's perfectly fine that we all have different preferences. Our differences only become a problem when we try to impose them on others. If we look at all the "discussion" threads that seem to get out of control, they usually all come back to the same thing. Some of us, if not most of us, seem to feel like the world should see things our way. We are afraid that if the other guy thinks different then others who read the thread might believe him instead of us. It doesn't matter. The readers here, and anywhere for that matter, will make up their own mind. Trying different things to see what we like and don't like is a big part of the fun anyway. It's like a discovery, or treasure hunt.
Me personally, I like to see what others think about different things. It doesn't mean I'm going to change, but it might!
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
another thing... no 2 players have the same stroke, either. I've seen my cue behave completely differently in the hands of other players, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced this.
John Higgins uses a Kamui black medium. He seems to do okay with it.