Scopping cue ball foul?

A

AkGuy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once again I was stretched out for a draw shot with to long of a bridge and I hit so low on the cue ball with my sorry stroke it jumped over the ball I was aiming at. I told my friend he had ball in hand as there was no way I didn't double hit the cue ball.

I don't think it is possible to do that shot without double hitting the cue ball. What do you guys say?
 
Practice your stroke

Usually when you double hit the CB on a scoop you can feel it and should call the foul on yourself.

It’s not always a double hit on a scoop, and sometimes it is. You can usually feel
It or hear it. Occasionally it’s not possible to determine.

Good luck
Fatboy
 
How bout...

Lets look at it this way then. If your shaft is almost flat on the table how is it possible to get the tip under the cue ball and lift the cue ball up and over another ball with out running the tip under the cue ball after the initial contact?

I have tried and can't do it, the cue ball rolls off of the tip every time, unless I intentionally try to scoop it and when I do, I am contacting the cue ball more then once.
 
It doesn't matter if it's a double hit or not, a "scoop jump" is always a foul, ergo ball in hand for you opponent.

Dr. Dave's video's have shown you can scoop with and without a double hit, but again for the resulting penalty it does not matter.

If scooping is done intentionally (this does not seem to be the case here) then it becomes unsportsmanlike conduct and can even mean you're thrown out of the tournament.

Regards, Dave
 
Double-Dave said:
It doesn't matter if it's a double hit or not, a "scoop jump" is always a foul, ergo ball in hand for you opponent.

Regards, Dave
Click to expand...

Uh no its not, an intentional scoop is a foul, miscuing when trying to draw the ball as noted in the OP is rarely a foul.
 
seldom applied rules

Some rules are seldom applied. Most rulebooks say that a miscue is a foul in itself, any miscue. Rarely do I see anyone claim ball in hand for a typical miscue. Scooping the ball, intentionally or not, is generally a foul. Like a miscue, fairly rarely called. When you hear or feel the double hit it is sporting to call the foul on yourself.

Sounds like you need to practice with a bridge. If the place you play doesn't have one, buy one of the cheap plastic slip-on heads to put on a house cue. Kinder to grab a house cue already missing a tip as these bridge heads tend to remove tips. Might buy two or three of those plastic moosehead style bridge heads at once, they are cheap and sooner or later you leave them behind!

This isn't intended as a knock, more the voice of experience. I was once very bad about stretching too far and hated using the bridge. Scooped more than a few cue balls accidentally myself. Learning to shoot left handed and behind my back cut down on the use of the bridge but I put in practice sessions using the bridge every shot just to get used to it.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Some rules are seldom applied. Most rulebooks say that a miscue is a foul in itself, any miscue. Rarely do I see anyone claim ball in hand for a typical miscue. Scooping the ball, intentionally or not, is generally a foul. Like a miscue, fairly rarely called. When you hear or feel the double hit it is sporting to call the foul on yourself.

Sounds like you need to practice with a bridge. If the place you play doesn't have one, buy one of the cheap plastic slip-on heads to put on a house cue. Kinder to grab a house cue already missing a tip as these bridge heads tend to remove tips. Might buy two or three of those plastic moosehead style bridge heads at once, they are cheap and sooner or later you leave them behind!

This isn't intended as a knock, more the voice of experience. I was once very bad about stretching too far and hated using the bridge. Scooped more than a few cue balls accidentally myself. Learning to shoot left handed and behind my back cut down on the use of the bridge but I put in practice sessions using the bridge every shot just to get used to it.

Hu
Click to expand...

All good advice.

OP,

Don't forget about extensions. Especially really long butt extensions that are for one-n-done shots.

You can purchase them online or like myself and many othrrs, have a cue guy custom make you one...or two...... or three......or four......or five ...., be careful, lol..... before you know it, you'll have a basket full of them for assorted cues at different lengths.

Jeff
 
RiverCity said:
Uh no its not, an intentional scoop is a foul, miscuing when trying to draw the ball as noted in the OP is rarely a foul.
Click to expand...

Clarification: rarely called foul.

IIRC, daver doc has shared vid that evidences miscues have both tip and ferrule contact.
 
The ferrule does not always hit the cb.

WPA rules
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
Click to expand...

BCA rules
https://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=55

3.27 JUMP SHOTS
Unless otherwise stated in rules for a specific game it is legal to cause the cue ball to rise off the bed of the table by elevating the cue stick on the shot, and forcing the cue ball to rebound from the bed of the table. Any miscue when executing a jump shot is a foul.
Click to expand...

APA rules dont even have the word miscue in there.
http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Rules-Booklet-English.pdf

TAP rules
https://tapleague.com/files/pdfs/8ballScotDblsRules1.pdf

Miscue – This occurs when the tip of a cue stick slides off the cue ball because of inadequate chalking, a defective tip, or misapplication of “English.” A miscue could lead to a ball-in-hand situation for your opponent, especially if the miscue causes the cue ball to jump over any balls on the table
Click to expand...

Please, someone show me where a miscue is an automatic foul.
 
https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/miscue/


With most miscues, the tip slides along the cue ball, and the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft make secondary contact with the cue ball. The secondary contacts might partially explain the slapping sound you hear with a miscue. Normally, multiple hits on the cue ball results in a foul; but in case of a miscue, the multiple hits are not considered a foul under the current rules (unless the miscue is judged as “intentional”). For more information, see “Rules – Part V: miscellaneous fouls” (BD, December, 2009) and:
 
Black-Balled said:
https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/miscue/


With most miscues, the tip slides along the cue ball, and the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft make secondary contact with the cue ball. The secondary contacts might partially explain the slapping sound you hear with a miscue. Normally, multiple hits on the cue ball results in a foul; but in case of a miscue, the multiple hits are not considered a foul under the current rules (unless the miscue is judged as “intentional”). For more information, see “Rules – Part V: miscellaneous fouls” (BD, December, 2009) and:
Click to expand...

If you stroke too low, hitting the cloth before the ball, and the tip hits the ball on the upwards rebound (as in trying to hit too low to draw the ball), there is no ferrule contact.

Even on the video Dr Dave posted showing an "elevated draw", there is no ferrule contact with the ball.
https://youtu.be/k-WOjAmlH9w

And there is no foul. Unless of course, you are intentionally trying to jump the ball with a scoop/miscue.
 
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
 
Patrick Johnson said:
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
Click to expand...


I posted that above. But apparently Im speaking goddamn chinese.
 
Fatboy said:
It’s not always a double hit on a scoop, and sometimes it is. You can usually feel
It or hear it. Occasionally it’s not possible to determine.
Fatboy
Click to expand...

ShootingArts said:
When you hear or feel the double hit it is sporting to call the foul on yourself.
Hu
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you two guys are talking about, but I had a hard time trying to find the words to describe how the double hit miscue and a non-double hit miscue differ in sound. Describing the way a double hit miscue "feels" also eluded me.

I can tell when I've double hit a cue ball, but in my mind I cannot seem to come up with a way to describe it.

You guys want to try and describe it?

Maniac
 
Thaks

Thanks to all of you who responded to this topic. Once again we have a difference in opinions on a pool topic. What I believe.

My stroke causes most of the miscues I have had.
It will be easier to call a foul on myself then an opponent.

I have a good 9' table and good equipment. Diveney Cues and extensions and bridges.
I am old and retired and a mediocre player. But, darn I enjoy playing pool!
 
I think it's really gonna depend on which set of rules you're playing by, but I do believe
that most sets of rules allow for an unintentional miscue as long as the what happens
after is rule compliant. In most cases, by any set of rules I'm pretty sure that intentional
scooping is not a legal shot and you could go to pool jail
 
RiverCity said:
Uh no its not, an intentional scoop is a foul, miscuing when trying to draw the ball as noted in the OP is rarely a foul.
Click to expand...

I've played in a few places that say "all" miscues are fouls regardless if the cue ball makes contact with ob or not.

Then again, I play in other places that don't consider a miscue a foul as long as the cb doesn't leave table and also makes contact with ob and a rail if playing BIH.

I don't mind playing either way.

When playing cheap sets, most of the people I play very, very seldom miss position, much less miscue.

I never worry about an opponent's miscues unless they do it at a time where it would benefit them (no ball in hand....to keep from hitting a ball or such). Even then, I don't worry about it unless they do it often.

In the end, a miscue, in my experience almost always means BIH because more times than not, the cb either doesn't hit the ob/rail or it leaves the table.

But to say a miscue is automatically a foul is a little to scientific to me because I believe one can cause the cb to leave the surface without ferrule touching the cb when using extreme bottom and a choppy/elevated stroke combined with enough stroke speed.

Jeff
 
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