Scratch on break - ball in hand - not in kitchen

C

cueballtwo

New member
At my BCA league on Tuesday night, the envelope had the usual stuff but also the following from "Behind The Line News Letter 7/27/10"

Captains, please share this with your players:

New BCA Rules starting tonight

Rule 2.4.3 The penalty for any foul on the break has changed from ball in hand in the kitchen to ball in hand. rules 2.3.3 (b), 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.4.2 (a) and 2.4.3 have been changed ind consolidated to reflect this change.

Rule 2.4.3 (c) If the breaker makes the 8-ball and fouls, the incoming player may no longer require the breaker to re-rack and break again.

Does anyone know if the world standardized rules for 8-ball are going to be following a similar pattern? Other 8-ball leagues?

Thanks
 
Horrible idea!!! Now instead of just taking the easier suit (solids or stripes) from the kitchen, now they incoming shooter can take care of an otherwise "problem" ball right off the bat! How much easier do you have to make the game of 8ball? Why not just get rid of 8ball alltogether? Make everyone play 9ball...no, better yet, 6 ball. Sheesh.

League I play in for eight ball is take what you make, and no I don't see it as being penalized for making a ball on the break. I too have made 3-4 of one suit and not had much of a shot after the break....deal with it. Now this - why not just get rid of all defense too, and give ball in hand for any ball not made in a called pocket....:eek:

I like 8ball on a barbox. but with all the rule changes, it just isn't 8ball anymore!
 
trustyrusty said:
Horrible idea!!! Now instead of just taking the easier suit (solids or stripes) from the kitchen, now they incoming shooter can take care of an otherwise "problem" ball right off the bat! How much easier do you have to make the game of 8ball? Why not just get rid of 8ball alltogether? Make everyone play 9ball...no, better yet, 6 ball. Sheesh.

League I play in for eight ball is take what you make, and no I don't see it as being penalized for making a ball on the break. I too have made 3-4 of one suit and not had much of a shot after the break....deal with it. Now this - why not just get rid of all defense too, and give ball in hand for any ball not made in a called pocket....:eek:

I like 8ball on a barbox. but with all the rule changes, it just isn't 8ball anymore!
Click to expand...

Easy solution - don't scratch on the break. Being punished for your mistakes doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
 
I agree. Although, I'm not gonna sit here and say I get out all the time when I get ball in hand, game of 8 and 9 ball are both games based on RUNNING OUT. And even though it doesn't happen all the time, I feel that a foul, or a scratch on the break should for all real purpose result in loss of game WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING SOMEBODY THAT CAN GET OUT FROM THERE!
And consider this, after break the table is still open. However one group of balls that have the better lay are primarily inside the kitchen, while the other group of balls are outside the kitchen, but present a tougher lay. So in essense, the player that DID NOT commit the foul is faced with a disadvantage by being forced to shoot from the kitchen, and at balls that are not in the kitchen
 
TopShot said:
Easy solution - don't scratch on the break. Being punished for your mistakes doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
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you're right, let's just make a scratch on the break a loss instead though, no real reason for the opponent to shoot - make it real punishment! I'm talking about rule changes, not that you shouldn't scratch on the break....
 
trustyrusty said:
you're right, let's just make a scratch on the break a loss instead though, no real reason for the opponent to shoot - make it real punishment! I'm talking about rule changes, not that you shouldn't scratch on the break....
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The rule change just made a scratch on the break consistent with the penalty for scratching on any other shot. Why should it be loss of game?

Scratching on the break resulting in a loss seems to be the rule for bangers and tavern type bar pool.
 
TopShot said:
The rule change just made a scratch on the break consistent with the penalty for scratching on any other shot. Why should it be loss of game?

Scratching on the break resulting in a loss seems to be the rule for bangers and tavern type bar pool.
Click to expand...

call it what you will - it makes the game easier/faster, and that's really the goal when it comes to leagues.

why give tennis players two serves? why 4 balls and 3 strikes in baseball? 4 downs in football? c'mon, all these games take way too long, change the rules and speed em up.

why do you think there's a rule on the break where so many balls have to hit a rail? Don'tcha think the "better" player would win having to pick the balls out by breaking back into the stack (using a 14.1 style break in 8ball)? Just speed it all up, take out all defense, and a missed called shot gives the opponent ball in hand as well (or even make that a loss of game)....that way a missed shot that results in a lucky roll won't be a factor. I dunno, it just seems like all the added rules over the years are geared towards one thing, making the game easier and quicker.
 
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Yep

TopShot said:
Easy solution - don't scratch on the break. Being punished for your mistakes doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
Click to expand...

Yep, seems pretty logical !! If you scratch any other time, it's ball in hand. This benefits the better players, thus, folks will have to learn how to break and keep whitey in the middle of the table. Not very difficult to learn if you practice it, but they will need to do it if they want to win !!

No more "watch" how hard I can crack'em but the cue ball is running wild.
Now you gotta crack'em in control. It's part of the game for the great players, guys will only get better with this as well.
 
Don'tcha think learning to run a rack where breaking up clusters (a staple of barbox 8ball FOREVER) will make a player better? I personally think that is WAY more important than squatting a cue ball on the break. Giving ball in hand on break scratches allows the incoming player to get a break out by placing the cueball anywhere they want....instead of possibly using cueball control to get that breakout. But again, I don't think it's just more of a penalty for the breaker, but more of a way to speed up the game, and AGAIN, make it easier. I'd love to use a 14.1 break a few times to see how some opponents would fair with that, but RULES state that you can't do that either.....
 
I'm on the fence, not sure if i'll like it or not yet. I do know my run percentage is gonna skyrocket off my opponents fouled scratch. The worst part of getting BIH after the break was the kitchen and being limited on shot selection. But now, as stated, I can get the trouble areas cleared right away & stop shot the rest of the runout. However, also as mentioned players are going to evolve & learn to break so the rule will essencially become much less important because it won't come in to effect often. The way lots of players are going to adjust to this is by soft breaking, thus making the game infinitely tougher & slower.

Picture any player on any league who gets burned a couple times by scratching on the break. They will almost with certainty begin soft breaking to avoid further severe losses. It'll especially be seen in handicap leagues where you get paid per ball made. So again, i'm not sure how I feel about the rule yet. Time will tell. If speed & ease was the goal of the rule change, they screwed this one up pretty bad. There's gonna be lots of clustered racks once lower level players find out how much easier they'll get ran on for free stroking the break.
 
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cueballtwo said:
At my BCA league on Tuesday night, the envelope had the usual stuff but also the following from "Behind The Line News Letter 7/27/10"

Captains, please share this with your players:

New BCA Rules starting tonight

Rule 2.4.3 The penalty for any foul on the break has changed from ball in hand in the kitchen to ball in hand. rules 2.3.3 (b), 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.4.2 (a) and 2.4.3 have been changed ind consolidated to reflect this change.

Rule 2.4.3 (c) If the breaker makes the 8-ball and fouls, the incoming player may no longer require the breaker to re-rack and break again.

Does anyone know if the world standardized rules for 8-ball are going to be following a similar pattern? Other 8-ball leagues?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I like the new rule. I can't tell ya how many times I have played my opponents scratch from the kitchen and had this problem: the solids are setting the easiest to run out with most of them in front of the corner pockets, either in the kitchen or they are on the far end of the table. The problem is that from in the kitchen, all my angles for a decent shot on theses solids are blocked. This scenario forces me to take stripes and try to win a safety battle or move my balls into better positions.
I don't like the fact that a guy can blast the break, fly off the table and I don't get to take advantage of shooting the easier layout because the shots are blocked. This rule will force the bangers to control their break or pay the consequences.
In case nobody knew, the break is the first shot, it's not just a speed contest. Controlling the cueball is just as important as making a ball. If you lose whitey, there should be a severe penalty. I like it!!!!!:thumbup:
 
Has anyone considered an alternative result? Cue in hand after the break equals a faster end to a rack. Faster racks equal more dollars in the table at the end of the day. The best players already have a major advantage. I think it's too much now. JMHO.

Lyn
 
Tokyo-dave said:
I agree. Although, I'm not gonna sit here and say I get out all the time when I get ball in hand, game of 8 and 9 ball are both games based on RUNNING OUT. And even though it doesn't happen all the time, I feel that a foul, or a scratch on the break should for all real purpose result in loss of game WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING SOMEBODY THAT CAN GET OUT FROM THERE!
And consider this, after break the table is still open. However one group of balls that have the better lay are primarily inside the kitchen, while the other group of balls are outside the kitchen, but present a tougher lay. So in essense, the player that DID NOT commit the foul is faced with a disadvantage by being forced to shoot from the kitchen, and at balls that are not in the kitchen
Click to expand...

I agree with you, I hate being stuck in the kitchen if there are 15 balls still on the table, that is punishment itself espcially on a barbox table.
 
TopShot said:
The rule change just made a scratch on the break consistent with the penalty for scratching on any other shot. Why should it be loss of game?

Scratching on the break resulting in a loss seems to be the rule for bangers and tavern type bar pool.
Click to expand...

scratching on the break and having BIH across the table is for bangers and tavern pool too brother

thats just making the game easier....not something I'm really down for

IE: More pool game bastardization

Whats next BIH in onepocket?
 
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This will probably cut down on the number of 8-on-the-breaks, since many folks won't want to risk the scratch and resulting BIH anywhere.

As for whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, that's not for me to say. I do know it'll be fun watching the arguments about it.
 
Run Outs Not Up

this Ball In Hand anywhere after the break was tried at quite a few larger tournaments.

The players liked it and there were not a larger number of runouts
 
The rule change doesn't bother me one way or the other 'cause both players are playing by the same rule. What does bother me is that in pool, there are so many DIFFERENT sets of rules to play under that it's ridiculous. If a pool association/Congress/affiliation wants to REALLY do something for the game of pool, let's get all poolplayers shooting under the SAME RULES WORLDWIDE!!!

As far as the rule change on the BCA break shot goes, like Greyghost implied, the rules were fine just the way they were. There was really no need to change the way it's been done for YEARS. But, like I said, both players are playing by the same rule.

Maniac
 
trustyrusty said:
Horrible idea!!! Now instead of just taking the easier suit (solids or stripes) from the kitchen, now they incoming shooter can take care of an otherwise "problem" ball right off the bat! How much easier do you have to make the game of 8ball? Why not just get rid of 8ball alltogether? Make everyone play 9ball...no, better yet, 6 ball. Sheesh.

League I play in for eight ball is take what you make, and no I don't see it as being penalized for making a ball on the break. I too have made 3-4 of one suit and not had much of a shot after the break....deal with it. Now this - why not just get rid of all defense too, and give ball in hand for any ball not made in a called pocket....:eek:

I like 8ball on a barbox. but with all the rule changes, it just isn't 8ball anymore!
Click to expand...

If you don't consider it a penalty, what is their to deal with? Of course it's a penalty and open after break "deals" with it.

A scratch on break in 9-ball is pretty much loss of game. Why shouldn't it be in 8-ball?

If there is no shot from the kitchen, why reward a scratch on the break?

This rule makes perfect sense to me.

MM
 
In my opinion, this is a good rule, and in line with the banning of phenolic tips for break cues.

What this rule change does is to increase the penalty for getting the break wrong, and make it more reasonable to reduce the power of the break consistent with performing an open break.

This rule favors accuracy over power, and precision over luck. It is a good change for 8-ball.
 
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