Secondary market anomaly?

PhilosopherKing

PhilosopherKing

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It seems like the works of recently nonactive cuemakers are selling for less than when they were in full production.

Am I imagining this?

If not, then what's going on here?

Just an overall weak market, or is there more to it?
 
PhilosopherKing said:
It seems like the works of recently nonactive cuemakers are selling for less than when they were in full production.

Am I imagining this?

If not, then what's going on here?

Just an overall weak market, or is there more to it?
Click to expand...

Way to general of a question to answer here. Best to ask why cuemaker X cues are selling for less.

Some cuemakers are a dick or have built crappy cues. This would explain both why they are nonactive and their cues sell for less.

Larry
 
Maybe blowing out old inventory or cues that they finished and original order fell through. Normal to liquidate at a discount.
 
63Kcode said:
Way to general of a question to answer here. Best to ask why cuemaker X cues are selling for less.

Some cuemakers are a dick or have built crappy cues. This would explain both why they are nonactive and their cues sell for less.

Larry
Click to expand...

Out of respect for the deceased and guy's who many consider legends, I didn't name names.

I'm not talking ham and eggers.
 
PhilosopherKing said:
Out of respect for the deceased and guy's who many consider legends, I didn't name names.

I'm not talking ham and eggers.
Click to expand...

Some of them were only "valuable" in their area, and now people are finding out nobody else from other areas are willing to pay the price - too many better options.
You know, the hometown hero stuff

Not to mention, everybody thinks a cuemakers cues go up when they die and this isn't the case 99% of the time.
Jason
 
they are sold at retail or above. so on the secondary market they should be less than new price. unless someone very special that has a super following and built very limited amounts.
 
PhilosopherKing said:
Out of respect for the deceased and guy's who many consider legends, I didn't name names.

I'm not talking ham and eggers.
Click to expand...

That narrows it down a bit. Still would help to know which makers you are curious about.

You asked about recently nonactive makers. It's normal for prices to drop before they start to rise. If they start to rise.

Larry
 
With modern day sports figures the demand for their ssports cards will increase somewhat right before they retire and after a short period of time after their demand starts to plummet slowly with the exception of a megasuperstar like Jordan. Out of sight, out of mind.
 
Can You Handle The Truth?

The market for pool cues is just diminishing and it will always endure but the hey day is gone.

Pool halls nationwide are not increasing but are instead shrinking in number as everyone knows.

The vast population of players have little interest in cue craftsmanship versus a cue's functionality,
perhaps because of the popularity of low deflection shafts that can be used on any cue butt.

Cue exhibition shows are becoming fewer & far between & cue-maker participation is less and less.

And too many cue sellers are overestimating the value of their cues asking absurd prices for a cue
design that should sell for not more than say $3500 and so the sell adds another $3k and wonders
why the cue doesn't sell. Unrealistic expectations about what your cue is worth sure doesn't help.


The market has changed and just like in MLB, players need to realize the long term contract for a
player over 30 years old is pretty much just a memory. The 7 & 10 year contracts are only going to
get offered to younger players and so free agents right now are pouting........those big babies.....it's
a different market and MLB is never going back to the "hey days" of the past.......well, I am sorry to
report the same appplies to pool cues, custom designed or a catalog model & cue-makers as well,
except for a few that produce a scant quantity of custom made pool cues.
 
Bavafongoul said:
The market for pool cues is just diminishing and it will always endure but the hey day is gone.

Pool halls nationwide are not increasing but are instead shrinking in number as everyone knows.

The vast population of players have little interest in cue craftsmanship versus a cue's functionality,
perhaps because of the popularity of low deflection shafts that can be used on any cue butt.

Cue exhibition shows are becoming fewer & far between & cue-maker participation is less and less.

And too many cue sellers are overestimating the value of their cues asking absurd prices for a cue
design that should sell for not more than say $3500 and so the sell adds another $3k and wonders
why the cue doesn't sell. Unrealistic expectations about what your cue is worth sure doesn't help.


The market has changed and just like in MLB, players need to realize the long term contract for a
player over 30 years old is pretty much just a memory. The 7 & 10 year contracts are only going to
get offered to younger players and so free agents right now are pouting........those big babies.....it's
a different market and MLB is never going back to the "hey days" of the past.......well, I am sorry to
report the same appplies to pool cues, custom designed or a catalog model & cue-makers as well,
except for a few that produce a scant quantity of custom made pool cues.
Click to expand...

Not in our town.

Big Dogs was packed to the gills Thursday night, like most nights. So was The Rack. And Anytime Billiards is doing tournaments now, too.

Leagues are good for the game. Very good.

Get the hell out of CA and come have a look/see.


Jeff Livingston

PS Leagues have created many new players who each needs a cue.
 
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I think the custom market is dead and gone. Its supply and demand in my opinion. In the last 20 years there have been thousands and thousands of custom cues built but the "custom cue buyers" have not multiplied at the same rate.

Just imagine if home builders kept building and building for years but home buyers didn't multiply or have more children to buy houses.

I have been into custom cues for about 20 years but don't own any more than I did then. I usually own 2 or 3 at a time but that number has remained static.
 
PhilosopherKing said:
It seems like the works of recently nonactive cuemakers are selling for less than when they were in full production.
Am I imagining this?
If not, then what's going on here?
Just an overall weak market, or is there more to it?
Click to expand...

If your question is based on the premise that after a cue maker retires or dies that his work should increase in value, is too simplistic. There are many factors involved.
 
I glanced at ebay auctions, highest price first, and was laughing out loud at the prices of cues by makers unknown to me. 5K for a 1K cue seems to be the norm. I really got a good laugh at an auction for a no name cue, not signed or logoed, and the description didn't reveal who made it either, all for thousands!

Cues that went up in value were made for and made famous by pros in a time where custom was not readily available. They still hold their value today, even if it was not owned by a pro. Cues hyped today by resellers just don't seem to have the same panache. The pros are sponsored by production makers today, nothing really special or custom, just off the rack for buyers.

The custom cue suppliers are the ones making out like a bandit.
 
I saw a cue in the for sale section it had been there for over 6 months and although I
liked the cue I don't need another cue. The seller had not dropped the price at all
in the 6 months. The last time I looked at the cue the seller had raised the price by$100
 
Pool & Billiard Halls - US Market Research Report

Pool halls are projected to contract as negative participation trends will likely continue
Long-term trends pertaining to pool and billiards participation have threatened the industry
Pool halls will continue to have difficulty attracting younger customers over the period

The most significant barrier to entry for the Pool and Billiard Halls industry is the initial capital investment required to open an establishment.
Startup costs include facility rentals and leases, purchases of pool tables, balls, cue sticks, racks and other game equipment. Depending on the
size of the establishment, owners may choose to purchase food & drink equipment, arcade games, merchandise and other miscellaneous amenities
for customers. Difficulty generating sufficient capital to cover initial purchases remains the largest barrier to entry for potential operators.The industry
is very fragmented & there are few regulatory hurdles for pool & billiards halls to overcome.


I am a cue afficienado and have invested quite a bit of money in custom pool cues so naturally I want to see a bright future for pool & custom pool cues.
But I am also a pragmatic about things and to deny the stark fact there's are a lot more closings of pool halls "nationwide", not just CA, than openings.
Things may be booming in your neck of the woods and there may be a regional pocket of success here & there but the fact is nationwide, pool is suffering.

The number of cue shows is shrinking and geopgraphically, coverage is also shrinking to only certain regions, and cue-maker participation in these shows is down.
Social media may be able to communicate with a large audience but that doesn't automatically translate into bolstering the pool & billiards industry growth & success.
Sadly, the nationwide outlook continues to be oriented more on a downslope than a upslope or even just a plateau which would be better than the real trendline.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Pool & Billiard Halls - US Market Research Report

Pool halls are projected to contract as negative participation trends will likely continue
Long-term trends pertaining to pool and billiards participation have threatened the industry
Pool halls will continue to have difficulty attracting younger customers over the period

The most significant barrier to entry for the Pool and Billiard Halls industry is the initial capital investment required to open an establishment.
Startup costs include facility rentals and leases, purchases of pool tables, balls, cue sticks, racks and other game equipment. Depending on the
size of the establishment, owners may choose to purchase food & drink equipment, arcade games, merchandise and other miscellaneous amenities
for customers. Difficulty generating sufficient capital to cover initial purchases remains the largest barrier to entry for potential operators.The industry
is very fragmented & there are few regulatory hurdles for pool & billiards halls to overcome.


I am a cue afficienado and have invested quite a bit of money in custom pool cues so naturally I want to see a bright future for pool & custom pool cues.
But I am also a pragmatic about things and to deny the stark fact there's are a lot more closings of pool halls "nationwide", not just CA, than openings.
Things may be booming in your neck of the woods and there may be a regional pocket of success here & there but the fact is nationwide, pool is suffering.

The number of cue shows is shrinking and geopgraphically, coverage is also shrinking to only certain regions, and cue-maker participation in these shows is down.
Social media may be able to communicate with a large audience but that doesn't automatically translate into bolstering the pool & billiards industry growth & success.
Sadly, the nationwide outlook continues to be oriented more on a downslope than a upslope or even just a plateau which would be better than the real trendline.
Click to expand...

I am pointing out the solution for other areas of the country, a solution that apparently works here very well.

A lot of posters continually diss leagues and say they're ruining pool. Leagues are the foundation of it, if there is to be one.

imho.

Also, as retail sales collapse to online sales, there are a pizzload of empty buildings dying for renters. This is lowering costs of entry. With the sales of equipment dropping, so should the prices of it. That, too, is helping.

I had to laugh at the "there are few regulatory hurdles for pool & billiards halls to overcome" comment. We wish.





Jeff Livingston
 
Ruth 7

It's not uncommon for values to drop when a cuemaker becomes inactive.
There are only a select few who's values rise when they stop building.
Similar but different when a cuemaker passes away.
The timing, and production volume have a lot to do with it.

Of course if a cuemaker wasn't very well liked while he was active, the values won't be going up unless they are driven up.

I think the best and most interesting example is Judd Fuller.
Judd Fuller was loved by all, fantastic cues, but the secondary market was always rather slow.
Since Judd has passed away his cues have skyrocketed.
 
Some

PhilosopherKing said:
Out of respect for the deceased and guy's who many consider legends, I didn't name names.

I'm not talking ham and eggers.
Click to expand...

There are some collectors who purchased on speculation of a cue increasing in value at the Cuemakers death. The sellers knowing that factored more $ into Cue when selling, already putting the cue at a max in value.
When the owner tries to sell for inflated bucks and finds no takers panic sets in and the price drops.
 
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