Several reasons why not to support the IPT

[Colin Colenso]

All the existing associations are threatened by the IPT.

If they succeed, they could gain total authority over the WPA organizational infrustructure. I think I wrote here earlier before that they would be very concerned about this.

The biggest existing tour, that is the San Miguel Asian 9-Ball tour organised by ESPN Star sports could not get the support of the WPA Asian bodies envolved because they could not find a way to eek $$ for themselves out of it. Some if not all of the official bodies wanted to ban their players from participating, but they couldn't risk alienating their top players who would have been mighty pissed to be not able to play for the big $$ offered.

WPA exists as a branch of the World Confederation of Billiard Sports which is an accredited member of the Olympic organization.

They are primarily bureaucrats hoping international accreditation can secure their positions. That is one reason why I have often said that pool entering the Olympics would be a bad idea. It would stop entrepreneurs like Kevin Trudeau from having the chance to market the sport.

I know Ian Anderson and he is a pretty sharp guy and decent fellow, but his motivations in writing this missive are spurious.

 

[KBP]

I think that any tour or organization that wants to try to make the sport better should go for it. If IPT can help the sport and get it up to where we all want it to be then let them take a shot at it. Its worth a try and maybe if they don't do it better then they go out like the rest in the past but don't down them for trying. If I stopped running Amateur events just because someone didn't like it then I wouldn't be giving it my all and trying to help the sport. I have to make changes as time goes on but I am still out there trying my best to help the sport. I am not perfect and neither is anyone else or any one organization but if we don't try then we haven't accomplished anything
Kay

 

[swami4u]

clown da fool!

LOL I think we should make the poster who started this wear a clown tag for a month! Cause i really cant belive for 1 second someone would send off a letter like that from any company on earth. Its funny, and i did LOL! but really can anyone here belive that someone who runs the wpa would be so dumb to send that out? Now if im wrong and this letter is for real then i can see why our loved game is in the shitter now! and i say bring on the IPT!
cause that crying sob needs to go. pitifullllllllllllll!

 

[Cane]

Can anyone explain to me what this portion of the letter means?

Well, I may be wrong, but to me it means that the WPA has their panties in a wad because they aren't going to receive their lion's share of the grub! He says that it costs them nothing because the sanctioning fee comes out of the added money. Well, guess what. Trudeau, the tour owner is the one adding the money, so it damn sure WOULD cost him something.

My opinion, for what it's worth, the WPA has done NO MORE for pool in the USA than anyone else. They may be feeding tournaments out to hundreds of millions of people, but the most we get to see here is the occasional WPBA, UPA and once in a great while a WPA event on ESPN or ESPN2 that's a rerun from MONTHS ago. If the IPT can get relatively current matches on TV and maybe even eventually broach the PPV market, then I think they'll stand the pool world on end. It's all about marketing. You can say what you will about Trudeau's past or his reputation, but the plain simple truth is that the guy is a marketing genius. He has made hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars with pure marketing stategy. I hope he's as good with the IPT as he has been with GolfTV and "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about". If he is, then our sport has a chance. As it stands now, pool is stagnant and thought of, by many, in a less than complimentary light. What have we got to lose. Our sport is already in the gutter. Outrageous entry fees, low paybacks, promoters not coming up with promised added moneys, players not getting paid, etc. We need something an we need something SOON. I hope the IPT is it. If not, then since he isn't trying to alienate any of the other tours, and not contracting players to play IPT exclusively, then there's nothing to lose giving this a shot.

Later,
Bob

 

[Big Bad Bern]

This quote tell everything that is wrong with the current governing bodies of pool
Quote:
Originally Posted by juegabillar
..........Why wouldn’t they want legitimate sanctioning by the world’s only legitimately recognized international organization for pool? This is a good question to consider. Because at the end of the day the sanctioning doesn’t cost them anything; it is for free because the sanctioning fee comes from the added prize fund...........


It says to me that the promoter should not worry about it costing the any money out of pocket, as they will just take it from the players who are struggling to survive! Thats great isn't it!

They also complain about Kevin touting his tournament as the world 8ball championship but correct me if I am wrong, they only put on one tournament a year that the can not even aquire TV rights for in the US.

The WPA's big claim to fame is their attempt to get pool into the Olympics but what does that do to draw people into our game and build the desire to become a touring professional.

This letter is an obvious cry of desperation from people failing in their duties to raise the sport to prominance.

One point I would like to make is that I think Kevin should think about limiting the participation of non North American players. Before people start to cry foul at this suggestion just remember the San Megiul (sp) bars participation from non asian players. This tour could be a building ground for North America to reassert their dominance on a world stage where we have been losing ground!

 

[SplicedPoints]

Don't be too hard on the WPA for the demise of pool in the US. The WPA is an international governing body for the different pool federations in the world. I don't think it has as much influence in the US as the BCA or the UPA. If anything, the vast majority of the blame would fall on the BCA/UPA, if there's any blame. Pool was in decline in the US far earlier than when WPA was formed.

Pool might be declining in the US, but it has been steady or growing in many other countries. Pool is probably more popular now in Europe (judging from the number of countries and GOOD players represenging Europe in the WPC). Pool is definately more popular in Asia (Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, India, Malaysia, Vietname, Philliphines, etc) now than ever before (maybe save Japan). There are now more players of South America and the Middle East competing in the WPC. I believe the forming of the WPA definately was a contributing factor to the growth of the game worldwide.

Though some of the WPA's letter could be out of self-protection, but there are still some valid claims:

-The IPT made a mockery of the sport by calling their 'Has Been Invitational' a World 8 Ball Championship. Sure it's an understandable marketing ploid, but it is a mockery nonetheless. Efren Reyes is the REAL World 8 ball Champion, not Sigel.

-I think all can agree that the IPT is still an unproven idea. A lot of people are quick to think that just because Kevin Trudeau's involved and there's money, that the television coverage and attention would come automatically. There are examples of similar cases failing, like Professional Fishing, soccer league in the US(still there, but struggling), and the WNBA(had big TV coverage, not anymore). In all those cases, big money was invested (probably much more money than the IPT and some even had major TV network coverage right form the start), but the investors bailed after failing to make their ideas fly. It happened before, it could happen to the IPT (hopefully not).

In light of this, I think it is important to think long term and not short term. If the IPT has absolutely no regard to the legitamacy of the WPA, problems could arise. Like SJM has mentioned earlier, IPT could potential kill off many of the good tournaments or good organizations today if it succeeds. If the IPT is a wildly successful venture, it wouldn't be a huge problem, but it could be a problem if it's only around for a few years. It could leave pool in an even worst situation years down the road.

I hope the WPA and the IPT could work together to create a truely "Internatinal Pool Tour". I really hope the IPT wouldn't be like so many other American sport franchises by calling their champion World Champion without a truely international competition. Restricting players to only American players is a bad idea; face it, the majority of the best players and the most entertaining players aren't from the US anymore.

 

[no-sho]

Don't be too hard on the WPA for the demise of pool in the US. The WPA is an international governing body for the different pool federations in the world. I don't think it has as much influence in the US as the BCA or the UPA. If anything, the vast majority of the blame would fall on the BCA/UPA, if there's any blame. Pool was in decline in the US far earlier than when WPA was formed.

Pool might be declining in the US, but it has been steady or growing in many other countries. Pool is probably more popular now in Europe (judging from the number of countries and GOOD players represenging Europe in the WPC). Pool is definately more popular in Asia (Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, India, Malaysia, Vietname, Philliphines, etc) now than ever before (maybe save Japan). There are now more players of South America and the Middle East competing in the WPC. I believe the forming of the WPA definately was a contributing factor to the growth of the game worldwide.

Though some of the WPA's letter could be out of self-protection, but there are still some valid claims:

-The IPT made a mockery of the sport by calling their 'Has Been Invitational' a World 8 Ball Championship. Sure it's an understandable marketing ploid, but it is a mockery nonetheless. Efren Reyes is the REAL World 8 ball Champion, not Sigel.

-I think all can agree that the IPT is still an unproven idea. A lot of people are quick to think that just because Kevin Trudeau's involved and there's money, that the television coverage and attention would come automatically. There are examples of similar cases failing, like Professional Fishing, soccer league in the US(still there, but struggling), and the WNBA(had big TV coverage, not anymore). In all those cases, big money was invested (probably much more money than the IPT and some even had major TV network coverage right form the start), but the investors bailed after failing to make their ideas fly. It happened before, it could happen to the IPT (hopefully not).

In light of this, I think it is important to think long term and not short term. If the IPT has absolutely no regard to the legitamacy of the WPA, problems could arise. Like SJM has mentioned earlier, IPT could potential kill off many of the good tournaments or good organizations today if it succeeds. If the IPT is a wildly successful venture, it wouldn't be a huge problem, but it could be a problem if it's only around for a few years. It could leave pool in an even worst situation years down the road.

I hope the WPA and the IPT could work together to create a truely "Internatinal Pool Tour". I really hope the IPT wouldn't be like so many other American sport franchises by calling their champion World Champion without a truely international competition. Restricting players to only American players is a bad idea; face it, the majority of the best players and the most entertaining players aren't from the US anymore.

TapTap! and that's only scratching the surface of what the WPA has accomplished. While everybody seems so intent on bashing the WPA, without having a clue what the objectives and reasons for the FOUNDING of the WPA was in the first place. Trying to bring together all the different and fragmented organizations under one banner has been a long and slow process over many years. It maynot seem important to the average American but having billiard recognized as an Olympic Sport allows the governing body in that country access to more of their goverment funds that ordinarily were not available. This is especially true in the European Countries! As an American living in Europe for roughly 15 years, I have witnessed and been apart of the structured program that has been implemented here. In some ways it's far superior to anything in America but also not without its faults. Also in my opinion, it would be understandable that the WPA would like to have a working relationship with the IPT for the overall creditability of the sport.
Do we want it to be like boxing with all its fragmented associations,WBA,WBO,WBC,IBF etc,etc. Each with its own World Champion. Who is the real World Champion???
Their is much more involved in this issue than meets the eye and understanding everything about the WPA from this one letter from Mr.Anderson is really jumping to conclusions about the purpose and the intent of the WPA! The main issue isn't about the money.
We would all like to see pool hit the big time and this maybe a great thing for some pro-players, but I for one, would hate to see it become all fragmented again. Like it always has been, and that's maybe a partial reason why it is in the state of despair that it is! IMHO

Just my little .02 Let the flamewar begin. I have thick skin!!!

No-sho

 

[SlimShafty]

Don't be too hard on the WPA for the demise of pool in the US. The WPA is an international governing body for the different pool federations in the world. I don't think it has as much influence in the US as the BCA or the UPA. If anything, the vast majority of the blame would fall on the BCA/UPA, if there's any blame. Pool was in decline in the US far earlier than when WPA was formed.

Pool might be declining in the US, but it has been steady or growing in many other countries. Pool is probably more popular now in Europe (judging from the number of countries and GOOD players represenging Europe in the WPC). Pool is definately more popular in Asia (Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, India, Malaysia, Vietname, Philliphines, etc) now than ever before (maybe save Japan). There are now more players of South America and the Middle East competing in the WPC. I believe the forming of the WPA definately was a contributing factor to the growth of the game worldwide.

Though some of the WPA's letter could be out of self-protection, but there are still some valid claims:

-The IPT made a mockery of the sport by calling their 'Has Been Invitational' a World 8 Ball Championship. Sure it's an understandable marketing ploid, but it is a mockery nonetheless. Efren Reyes is the REAL World 8 ball Champion, not Sigel.

-I think all can agree that the IPT is still an unproven idea. A lot of people are quick to think that just because Kevin Trudeau's involved and there's money, that the television coverage and attention would come automatically. There are examples of similar cases failing, like Professional Fishing, soccer league in the US(still there, but struggling), and the WNBA(had big TV coverage, not anymore). In all those cases, big money was invested (probably much more money than the IPT and some even had major TV network coverage right form the start), but the investors bailed after failing to make their ideas fly. It happened before, it could happen to the IPT (hopefully not).

In light of this, I think it is important to think long term and not short term. If the IPT has absolutely no regard to the legitamacy of the WPA, problems could arise. Like SJM has mentioned earlier, IPT could potential kill off many of the good tournaments or good organizations today if it succeeds. If the IPT is a wildly successful venture, it wouldn't be a huge problem, but it could be a problem if it's only around for a few years. It could leave pool in an even worst situation years down the road.

I hope the WPA and the IPT could work together to create a truely "Internatinal Pool Tour". I really hope the IPT wouldn't be like so many other American sport franchises by calling their champion World Champion without a truely international competition. Restricting players to only American players is a bad idea; face it, the majority of the best players and the most entertaining players aren't from the US anymore.

First the IPT is not restricting players to only American players! Second everyone knows this is going to be an uphill struggle to get pool it's rightful spot and players the money needed to have a legitimate sport, there really isn't any professional pool tour at all, it claims to be.

Nobody is saying it's going to be pie in the sky, But at least someone has the billiard balls to try And I think the sport has really got a good chance at picking up real sponsorship from large companies and major coverage in the media.

Second, Bass fishing has not really failed, many pro fisherman make more than pool players, and they have corporate sponsors now like Citgo and TOYOTA covering the tours and the payouts for 2006 are $22,000,000, with a tournament that has a $500,000 dollar first prize. Individual fisherman also have more sponsorship then pool players, and at least leaders keep trying new things and they push much harder than pool does. Also the WNBA may not be a ball of fire, but it hasn't failed and it too is head and shoulders above pool, minimum starting salary is $30,000 and many players are making $50,000 and they also have more corporate sponsors.

Look if pool leadership is always afraid to take a risk or try to innovate then they are doomed to fail. I think we are real lucky to have the "chance" to see if this works, things are going to be tried that have never been done.

You can't hold onto the past and still shoot for the stars.

 

[Colin Colenso]

TapTap! and that's only scratching the surface of what the WPA has accomplished.

Actually, most the improvements have come from independents such as Matchroom and ESPN Star Sports. WPA just provides accrditation and perhaps a few contact details for players. They do almost nothing in terms of finding sponsors or generating PR.

While everybody seems so intent on bashing the WPA, without having a clue what the objectives and reasons for the FOUNDING of the WPA was in the first place. Trying to bring together all the different and fragmented organizations under one banner has been a long and slow process over many years. It maynot seem important to the average American but having billiard recognized as an Olympic Sport allows the governing body in that country access to more of their goverment funds that ordinarily were not available.

So their plan is to use the govenments to steal money from taxpayers?
Then they could be as successful as all those other government funded sports, like uhmmmm Or like the olympic sports such as gymnastics and cross-country skiing.

Olympics kills sports because it centralizes the entire management of the sport. These bureaucrats do their best to kill every entrepreneur who tries to develop the sport, because such people become a threat to their power.

You are very naive about organizational economics.

This is especially true in the European Countries! As an American living in Europe for roughly 15 years, I have witnessed and been apart of the structured program that has been implemented here. In some ways it's far superior to anything in America but also not without its faults. Also in my opinion, it would be understandable that the WPA would like to have a working relationship with the IPT for the overall creditability of the sport.
Do we want it to be like boxing with all its fragmented associations,WBA,WBO,WBC,IBF etc,etc. Each with its own World Champion. Who is the real World Champion???

Yes please, could we be one tenth as successful as boxing with it's competing organizations. So we don't have a government approved World Champion...big deal. PR creates legends.

Their is much more involved in this issue than meets the eye and understanding everything about the WPA from this one letter from Mr.Anderson is really jumping to conclusions about the purpose and the intent of the WPA! The main issue isn't about the money.
We would all like to see pool hit the big time and this maybe a great thing for some pro-players, [edited]

No-sho

It's not just the money, it is also about the threat to WPA's power. The fact is they don't provide anything of significant value.

They and their member bodies try to get something for nothing from all start ups and always threaten to shut the event down, just like in this letter.

If they had more power they would threaten to ban IPT participants from the World Pool Championships, but thankfully they don't have that power yet. They will be lucky if Barry Hearn from Matchroom doesn't link up with the IPT and dump them.

 

[Shorty]

Just to comment here...

You got two guys staking 17k a piece under a pool table and the money disappears suddenly...more money than a majority of the total purses of tourneys being ran in the US.

How can pool get any damn lower than this?

I say go for it with the IPT...it truly can not do any more damage than the gambling hoodlums we have already.

If it is organized and at least somewhat legit, then maybe less of this riff raff will occur.

Shorty

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

Mr. Anderson,

Your letter was warm and from the heart, and your intentions I believe are in the right place. With that said, let me also say that the WPA has been one of the most highly politicized organizations of pool since day one. The way with which you choose invited players to compete in your championships has been absurd in the past by passing over players who are far more qualified in order to have the "in" players of the day invited. Furthermore, the prize monies in WPA events is a joke when considering who you have playing in the events. And, the WPA has done virtually nothing to bring in major outside sponsorship or interest to the game.

Now that a new idea has come into the sport, by a person who is laying out all the investment first, you have no hesitation to knock his efforts for the simple reason he will not pay the WPA a penny in sanctioning fees. Not only is that not very professional on your part, but it is also a sign of the desperation of your organization.

Another point is that you say that this sanction money would be brought back into the game one way or another. Well, instead of trying to get something for nothing (a large sanction fee), why not instead seek out sponsorship and try to create something more of value in the WPA? Can you name a single serious player who would rather play for $20k and a title over $300,000 and maybe no title? I can't- not even a carom player like me.

You have asked the IPT to work with everyone in your letter. Let me ask you this- why would a new organization consider working with an establishment that has kept pool on the back burner of international sports? Why would they support the very organizations that have made it impossible for all but two or three players to make a nice living playing pool professionally? Why would they seek permission to host tournaments with prizes more lucrative in one event than that of your whole annual calendar?

Even if the IPT is only around for two years, the top players and even many of the above average players will make more money in that span of time than they would playing all of your tournaments for the next ten years. Plus, they will probably be on TV in more countries and more of the time giving them countless opportunities to gain endorsement deals and realize the fame many of them deserve.

But what really irks me is the fact that you are so quickly willing to write a letter knocking what they are doing for the mere fact that they didn't put money in your organization's pocket. Had they agreed to pay off the WPA, you would be singing their praises. So basically, it would be support for money. Well, how do you expect the players to react to this sort of action. If their leader shows that all it takes is money to gain loyalty, how do you really expect them to be loyal to the WPA when someone else is willing to pay them way way way more money for their talent than the WPA?

In closing, I think that competition is a good thing. The more the WPA and other organizations fight to keep these tournaments from happening, the more the players are going to realize that the only reason you are doing this is because you have nothing to offer them compared to the IPT. I would work hard to offer them better prize money, less politics, fair player invitations instead of whose popular, etc. Fix those infrastructure issues (especially the prize money), and something like the IPT wouldn't even affect your organization.

You see, what pool hasn't seen yet is an organization with financial backing. So another promoter comes on the block with little to offer, so politics runs the game. You seem to want to believe that the WPA is a sanctioning body that players are going to support. But you need to look at other sanctioning bodies and how they are run. Let's say the PGA. Tiger makes most of his money on tour, and in the endorsements he gets because he is seen on TV at every tournament run by the PGA. Without the PGA, what is Tiger? Then consider the NBA- who would Michael Jordan have been without the NBA? Walter Payton without the NFL? The list goes on. Now ask yourself who X,Y, or Z (pool players) would be without the WPA? Well, they would be exactly as they are now, top players with no promotion, recognition outside the industry, and worst of it all- NO MONEY to show for it. So as far as I can tell, the WPA model as a sanctioning body is flawed. If most of the players made real money in your tournaments, and they had sponsorship deals because of it...and they were well known outside the industry because of it...they might think twice before playing in another tour. However, it is the other tour now that will probably give them the best shot at all these things. And believe me, if the tour gets off the ground (a very likely chance given the success of the first challenge match), players should, and will, flock to this tour because they have never been given a chance at the big time before, and they will probably receive no such chance at it from the WPA.

Deno Andrews

 

[hemicudas]

How ya like it thus far, IAN? Stay tuned, it will get worse.

 

[Nick B]

In case I'm wrong...who watched the IPT live on TV? Did anyone see the pay-per-view. You mean NBC and ESPN didn't greet KT with open arms? Ohhhh what a shame.

This is poison...why are we all so desperate to drink. This is beginning to smell like Jim Jones..."Mothers tell your children to drink the Kool-Aid...we are all going to a better place".

Nick

 

[Colin Colenso]

In case I'm wrong...who watched the IPT live on TV? Did anyone see the pay-per-view. You mean NBC and ESPN didn't greet KT with open arms? Ohhhh what a shame.

This is poison...why are we all so desperate to drink. This is beginning to smell like Jim Jones..."Mothers tell your children to drink the Kool-Aid...we are all going to a better place".

Nick

They are recording and editing the program for later distribution. There was never any intention to broacast this thing live.

KT has flooded TV with his productions in the past. Why would you think this is a big obstacle for him? He would not be broadcasting for our sake, but for his own. His value will come from seeling broadcastig rights and exposure created for his product that sponsors the event.

If you are so confident you could set up a betting proposition. eg. That the IPT will have less than 3 events between now and June 2006 and that less than $2 million will be given away in prize money.

You can set up your bet at http://www.tradesports.com/
Very secure and we can all put our money where our mouths are

 

[SplicedPoints]

I don't know why some are continuing to criticize the WPA. Considering the following facts before making a judgement about the usefulness of the WPA:

1) Pool "world-wide" was not nearly at the same 20 years ago as is now. It might not be evident in the US, but in most other countries pool has grown. The decline of pool in N America is not the fault nor the responsibility of the WPA, it's the BCA and the UPA's responsibility.

2) The Men's WPC is far superior now than it was even just 10 years ago. Sure it's nowhere near where we like to see it, but we have to be realistic.

3) The WPA has created other tournaments like the women's WPC, World Juniors, World 8 Ball championships, and probably others that many might not have heard of. Again, average North Americans probably don't appreciate this because they're rarely held in the US (probably because there aren't as many sponsors here).

4) It is true that the WPA so far has not been able to get pool to be an official Olympic sport. I feel that it is not entirely the WPA's fault and they have at least made good progress. The biggest reason why pool is not an olympic sport is because there are tons of other sports also wanting to be a part of the Olympics. The Olympics is already over-crowded with obscure sports, so I understand why they're very cautious in accepting additional sports. At least the WPA has managed to get pool recognized as a candidate sport. Even more, the WPA has managed to get pool to be a medal sport in the World Games, Asian Games, SE Asian Games, and probably other international or regional Olympics style games. Again, the WPA has done what it can under the circumstances.

5) The WPA is a non-for-profit organization trying to coordinate all the different national pool organizations. They are probably working with well over 100 different national pool organizations. It is no easy feat to manage so many relationships, especially when probably most of the organizations are also non-for-profit organizations with different goals and agendas.

Instead of knocking the WPA for what you feel they should do, try thinking about what they have achieved so far. Pool is definately bigger now than it has ever been. Maybe it's not apparent in the US, it sure is almost everywhere else.

 

[wahcheck]

I don't know why some are continuing to criticize the WPA. Considering the following facts before making a judgement about the usefulness of the WPA:

1) Pool "world-wide" was not nearly at the same 20 years ago as is now. It might not be evident in the US, but in most other countries pool has grown. The decline of pool in N America is not the fault nor the responsibility of the WPA, it's the BCA and the UPA's responsibility.

2) The Men's WPC is far superior now than it was even just 10 years ago. Sure it's nowhere near where we like to see it, but we have to be realistic.

3) The WPA has created other tournaments like the women's WPC, World Juniors, World 8 Ball championships, and probably others that many might not have heard of. Again, average North Americans probably don't appreciate this because they're rarely held in the US (probably because there aren't as many sponsors here).

4) It is true that the WPA so far has not been able to get pool to be an official Olympic sport. I feel that it is not entirely the WPA's fault and they have at least made good progress. The biggest reason why pool is not an olympic sport is because there are tons of other sports also wanting to be a part of the Olympics. The Olympics is already over-crowded with obscure sports, so I understand why they're very cautious in accepting additional sports. At least the WPA has managed to get pool recognized as a candidate sport. Even more, the WPA has managed to get pool to be a medal sport in the World Games, Asian Games, SE Asian Games, and probably other international or regional Olympics style games. Again, the WPA has done what it can under the circumstances.

5) The WPA is a non-for-profit organization trying to coordinate all the different national pool organizations. They are probably working with well over 100 different national pool organizations. It is no easy feat to manage so many relationships, especially when probably most of the organizations are also non-for-profit organizations with different goals and agendas.

Instead of knocking the WPA for what you feel they should do, try thinking about what they have achieved so far. Pool is definately bigger now than it has ever been. Maybe it's not apparent in the US, it sure is almost everywhere else.

I would not knock the WPA for what they have or haven't done......I just didn't agree with the initial letter to "not support the IPT"....

 

[SlimShafty]

I don't know why some are continuing to criticize the WPA. Considering the following facts before making a judgement about the usefulness of the WPA:

I never knocked the WPA until this letter, and I do consider all the facts.

1) Pool "world-wide" was not nearly at the same 20 years ago as is now. It might not be evident in the US, but in most other countries pool has grown. The decline of pool in N America is not the fault nor the responsibility of the WPA, it's the BCA and the UPA's responsibility.

The WPA certainly has to be held partially accountable for the decline of pool in North America, I thought this was a World-Wide organization? What don't we pay the fees?
Your saying lay all the blame on the BCA? that statement makes it even more evident that the WPA is not that relevant then.

2) The Men's WPC is far superior now than it was even just 10 years ago. Sure it's nowhere near where we like to see it, but we have to be realistic.

So what you are saying is, stay on course and let more fine pool playing professionals drop out and just do private lessons, or flounder in mediocrity because the money is not there? Because at this pace, the current group will be dead before they see anything like a real pro tour from the WPA.

3) The WPA has created other tournaments like the women's WPC, World Juniors, World 8 Ball championships, and probably others that many might not have heard of. Again, average North Americans probably don't appreciate this because they're rarely held in the US (probably because there aren't as many sponsors here).

Good point, how great is something if we never hear about it lol, rarely held in the US huh, well another example the WPA is not doing enough.

4) It is true that the WPA so far has not been able to get pool to be an official Olympic sport. I feel that it is not entirely the WPA's fault and they have at least made good progress. The biggest reason why pool is not an olympic sport is because there are tons of other sports also wanting to be a part of the Olympics. The Olympics is already over-crowded with obscure sports, so I understand why they're very cautious in accepting additional sports. At least the WPA has managed to get pool recognized as a candidate sport. Even more, the WPA has managed to get pool to be a medal sport in the World Games, Asian Games, SE Asian Games, and probably other international or regional Olympics style games. Again, the WPA has done what it can under the circumstances.

The only reason they want to be recognized as an Olympic sport is for their own "non profit" good Olympics will do nothing for the sport, maybe certain players. Colin has said it best, read his post.

5) The WPA is a non-for-profit organization trying to coordinate all the different national pool organizations. They are probably working with well over 100 different national pool organizations. It is no easy feat to manage so many relationships, especially when probably most of the organizations are also non-for-profit organizations with different goals and agendas.

This is one of the problems the so called "non profit banner" Give me a greedy capitalist that wants to make something and not hide behind the non profit banner that have their own agenda and tend to like the status quo, rarely do they innovate or take chances.

Instead of knocking the WPA for what you feel they should do, try thinking about what they have achieved so far. Pool is definately bigger now than it has ever been. Maybe it's not apparent in the US, it sure is almost everywhere else.

I never said I wouldn't give them any credit, But pool is bigger now than what? it's still extremely difficult for guys to make a living, and thats what it's about, right? not how many tournaments are worldwide or being in the Olympics. Today we don't really have a PRO tour, most guys are struggling to stay alive. We need a tour for our world class players can make a serious living, and not just the top 4 or 5 guys. I'm sorry but the WPA for the most part stays in neutral most of the time.

The BCA doesn't have a problem with the IPT, the APA doesn't have a problem with the IPT, because they both see potential for more exposure and many more new players and more money for them as well.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't know why some are continuing to criticize the WPA. Considering the following facts before making a judgement about the usefulness of the WPA:

1) Pool "world-wide" was not nearly at the same 20 years ago as is now. It might not be evident in the US, but in most other countries pool has grown. The decline of pool in N America is not the fault nor the responsibility of the WPA, it's the BCA and the UPA's responsibility.

Ok, so the WPA has NO RESPONSIBILITY in the US. The biggest potential market for the game.

2) The Men's WPC is far superior now than it was even just 10 years ago. Sure it's nowhere near where we like to see it, but we have to be realistic.

Thanks to Barry Hearn of Matchroom, not the WPA.

3) The WPA has created other tournaments like the women's WPC, World Juniors, World 8 Ball championships, and probably others that many might not have heard of. Again, average North Americans probably don't appreciate this because they're rarely held in the US (probably because there aren't as many sponsors here).

Again, these are run and sponsorships are found by other people as I understand. They simply approach the WPA for sanctioning.

4) It is true that the WPA so far has not been able to get pool to be an official Olympic sport. I feel that it is not entirely the WPA's fault and they have at least made good progress. The biggest reason why pool is not an olympic sport is because there are tons of other sports also wanting to be a part of the Olympics. The Olympics is already over-crowded with obscure sports, so I understand why they're very cautious in accepting additional sports. At least the WPA has managed to get pool recognized as a candidate sport. Even more, the WPA has managed to get pool to be a medal sport in the World Games, Asian Games, SE Asian Games, and probably other international or regional Olympics style games. Again, the WPA has done what it can under the circumstances.

As I've said before, I think Olympics would kill the sport forever. Luckily, it is almost certain never to happen.

5) The WPA is a non-for-profit organization trying to coordinate all the different national pool organizations. They are probably working with well over 100 different national pool organizations. It is no easy feat to manage so many relationships, especially when probably most of the organizations are also non-for-profit organizations with different goals and agendas.

It's one giant bureacracy that achieves very little. Non-Profits are typically political and bureacratic and certainly not the best form of governance for developing a sport.

The Matchroom or IPT models are far more effective by developing the sport as a business.

Instead of knocking the WPA for what you feel they should do, try thinking about what they have achieved so far. Pool is definately bigger now than it has ever been. Maybe it's not apparent in the US, it sure is almost everywhere else.

I don't mean to be rude, but I haven't seen a single argument raised on behalf of the WPA that makes any sense.

It may not do any harm for the WPA to sanction and take a small fee from the IPT, but I think the key factor here is that the WPA has very little to offer the IPT.

 

[X Breaker]

There is a small poll being run on the IPT in a new forum just started on www.xtremebilliard.com. Perhaps you would be interested in casting your vote?

Thank you.

 

[DaveK]

...It's one giant bureacracy that achieves very little.

Just out of idle curiosity, how many people might the WPA 'giant bureacracy' employ ? Any idea if they have a 'giant' budget to go with that ? I'm poking a little fun here, because I doubt that the WPA is very gigantic in any respect, but seriously, how many folks might be on their fulltime payroll ?

Dave