Shady Business Practices Need An Opinion?

POOLPLYR1111 said:
The Other Party Involved In This Mess States He Has Shipped My Cue, Case, And Cash Back To Me And That I Will Have It Tomorrow. I Will Then Return His Cue Back To Him Express Mail Insured. I Will Save The Shipping Receipt Until It Decays Cause You Never Know What Scam Might Be Pulled. Once Again I Have Learned My Lesson On Dealing With Certain People Here On Az. It Will Never Happen Again.

Thanks
Ron

IMO, this is the best move. Who knows, you might do better with your original cue/case down the road for something else. It had happened to me several time before where deals fell off. Then someone else wanted it, and I did better.
 
I'd like to just state that I made an honest mistake in a recent transaction I made on here with jimmyrayk (My first real sale of a cue that happened to come from the "mystery dealer" in question, that transaction went fine after I coughed up $300 to complete it, so I am not complaing about it, maybe I made the right move, maybe not, whatever...).

Our deal was regarding the diameter of a shaft. I stated it as being a certain diameter when in fact it wasn't. I did not have digital calipers to measure and listed it as what somebody else from my local pool room told me it was. Through some very nice conversations the matter was resolved and of course there were no hard feelings. It's kind of amazing what a simple phone call between "two" rational people can do. Thanks to jimmyrayk for understanding!

Best of luck with your dealings and I guess you have a learned a lesson! I have learned a few so far!

Jim
 
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Didgital calipers

are inaccurate as the number changes as you use different pressure.
 
sebas said:
are inaccurate as the number changes as you use different pressure.


CALIPERS

I'd much rather hear "I'll get my calipers" THAN "it looks like it's about 12 and 3/4...":)
 
I was mearly

Stating the fact as the mystery person tried to pull the same bs with my partially based on caliper readings for shaft thickness.
 
sebas said:
Stating the fact as the mystery person tried to pull the same bs with my partially based on caliper readings for shaft thickness.


GOTCHA:)

Although I never dealt with "him" I heard about his practices from people I know, trust and respect.

Dealing in person with mdse in hand is normally foolproof...
 
POOLPLYR1111 said:
First Off I Would Like To Start Off And Say That I Will Not Mention The Other Party Involved In This Dispute. They Know Who They Are. So Here We Go.

I Sent A Pm To A Well Known Cue Dealer Here On Az With A Trade Proposal. I Get A Response Saying That He Cant Do A Straight Up Trade But If I Throw In A Little Cash ($100) We Can Make A Deal. I Respond The Next Day And Agree To His Terms. I Will Ship Out My Cue First So That It Can Be Inspected And Once He Is Satisfied He Will Ship Out The Cue I Am Supposed To Receive.

Thursday 12/13/07 Im On My Way To The Post Office To Ship Out The Cue. I Get A Call From The Person Im Trading With Telling Me That He Looked Over The Pictures Of The Cue Here On Az And That He Doesnt Want To Do The Deal. His Problem Was That One Of The Tips Would Need To Be Replaced And That The Deal Isnt Fair. So In Order To Just Get The Deal Done I Agree To Throw In An Extra $25 To Cover This Expense. I Ship Out The Cue In A Hard 1x2 Case.

Friday 12/14/07 Person Im Trading With Receives My Cue. He Inspects The Cue And The Cue Is Straight Together And Apart Overall In Great Condition But There Is Some Minor Chipping Around The Butt Cap. Once Again He Wants To Void The Deal But Asks Me About The Nice 1x2 Case I Shipped My Cue In. I Assume That He Is Inquiring On Whether Or Not Im Willing To Include The Case In The Deal. So I Tell Him If He Likes The Case He Can Keep It As Long As We Can Go Ahead With The Deal. He Agrees And Ships Out The Cue I Am To Receive. Cue Is Due To Be Delivered On Saturday 12/15/07 Express Mail.

Saturday 12/15/07 I Receive A Phone Call At 11am From The Person I Am Trading With Telling Me That He Wants His Cue Back Because He Noticed That The Cue I Sent Is 59 Inches Long. Since He Is Renegging On Our Agreed Upon Deal He Offers To Cover My Return Shipping Charges.

So If Your In My Shoes What Do You Do????? He Alters The Deal Twice In His Favor And I Accept His Terms Just To Get A Deal Done. Now He Wants The Cue Back All Together.

I Have Done Numerous Deals Here On Az And All The People I Have Dealt With Will Probably Say That My Word Is Gold. But Here We Have I Guess If You Want To Say A Power Seller Here On Az And If He Wanted To Make False Accusations About Me Here On Az Even If They Were Completely Untrue Id Have To Say That Most Az'ers Here Would Believe Him. Am I Wrong? What I Have Just Said Is The Complete And Honest Truth.

Do I Tell This Guy Tough We Had A Deal In Place And What Is Done Is Done? Or Do I Keep The Peace And Return The Cue Even If It Pisses Me Off?

Any Input,ideas,opinions,would Be Appreciated




I will assume that 100% of what you say above is true, and you have bent over backwards TWICE to make the deal happen. I think you should keep the cue, and that is that.
drinktime.gif
 
well sir just to make this situation go away i am returning his cue once i receive my end of the deal back. im only bitter about how the way the deal progressed. i could care less about the cue i would have received cause the cue i sent him plays fantastic and im happy to get it back.
its funny with all the stories and complaints im hearing through pm's and here in the open forum how is this guy able to sell and trade without any negative feedback?
 
I Would Like To Personally Thank The Mystery Party For Buffing Out A Scratch In The Butt Of My Cue And Also For Cleaning The Shafts Before He Shipped The Cue Back To Me. I Can Only Assume That He Did These Things Before He Found Out That The Cue Was 59 Inches Long.
 
POOLPLYR1111 said:
well sir just to make this situation go away i am returning his cue once i receive my end of the deal back. im only bitter about how the way the deal progressed. i could care less about the cue i would have received cause the cue i sent him plays fantastic and im happy to get it back.
its funny with all the stories and complaints im hearing through pm's and here in the open forum how is this guy able to sell and trade without any negative feedback?

hehe... maybe when you get your original cue back tell him you changed your mind and no longer want it and send it back to him.

Seriously though, I can see why you would want to send his stuff back and get yours back, but you did bend to his will not once but TWICE!!! In neither case was it in your favor. The $25 cost for the tips or whatever is laughable in my opinion and personally after I went through all the trouble to acomodate him, I would not send the cue back if your happy with it. Especially after he already had yours and looked it over and sent his end of the deal out.

Jim
 
I was waiting to receive my White cue back before I gave the true account about what occurred with respect to this transaction. That's right, Ron's version of the facts does not comport with reality. Surprise, surprise, he omitted material facts. The facts are as follows:

Ron wanted to trade a used White wrapless cue for an August 2007 White hoppe cue that was in MINT condition (one shaft test hit only). I spoke with him on the phone and he suggested that I look at the AZB thread from which he purchased the cue earlier this month, so I did. The thread gave all the specs on the cue, except for the length. It also said that there was a scratch in the butt end of the cue that could be polished out. It said nothing about multiple chips in the butt cap or a noticeable ding in the butt sleeve. After I looked at the thread, I called Ron and asked him point blank if he could see the scratch or any dings or dents in the cue. He said "no" and that the cue had been polished by the prior owner. So, I believed that I would be getting a used, but near mint condition cue if the deal proceeded. We agreed that he would ship me his White cue and $100.00 at his expense by USPS Express Mail, and if I accepted the cue, I would ship him my White by USPS Express Mail on the day I received his cue. Alternatively, if I rejected his White cue, I would ship it back at my expense by USPS Express Mail.

On 12/16, Ron was on the way to the Post Office, I called him and told him not to ship his White as one of the tips looked paper thin and I did not want to deal with getting it retipped. There are no cue makers anywhere near where I live and I do not retip cues. I asked for no additional consideration. Ron immediately offered me an extra $25 to get the shaft retipped, and I accepted, thinking I would have it done at the DCC in three weeks. Again, I asked for nothing.

I received the cue on 12/17. I immediately called Ron and told him that contrary to his representations, the cue had several chips in the butt cap, a noticeable ding in the butt sleeve between the rings, and a very noticeable scratch that went through one of the rings in the sleeve/handle section. I told him that I was rejecting the cue and was going to ship him his cue and case back that afternoon by USPS Express Mail at my expense, as agreed. I asked for no additional consideration. He immediately offered me an extra $125.00 to complete the deal. I told him that the condition of his cue was not the kind of cue that I deal in. I only sell brand new/unchalked or near mint condition cues (cues that are like new, but chalked with no dings, dents or scratches). After some discussion, we agreed that I would keep the 1x2 hard case he shipped the White to me in. At this time, I had no idea that the cue was 59" and nobody ever told me that it was. On 12/17, I shipped my White cue by USPS Express Mail and e-mailed Ron copies of the shipping documents (something that I almost always do).

That evening, after dinner I hit the White cue, and it hit just fine. After I played a match at my house with my Nitti cue, I speced out the White cue that Ron had delivered earlier in the day. To my dismay, the cue was 59". This was when I learned for the first time that the cue was 59" as opposed to 58". I called Ron on Saturday morning and told him that he had traded me a 59" cue that would be very difficult, if not impossible, to resell and that I wanted my cue back. I offered to pay for the return shipping on my cue and ship his cue back at my expense by USPS Express Mail, as we originally had agreed in the event that I rejected his cue. After he played with my cue in a tournament on Saturday, he e-mailed and told me that my cue would be returned upon receipt of his White, the case and $160.00. Today, I shipped Ron his White, case and a $160.00 USPS money order, and e-mail him copies of the receipts for the shipping and money order.

The way I read Ron's version of the "facts," he would have you all believe that I pressured him into giving me additional consideration to complete the deal. To the contrary, I never, repeat, never, asked Ron in any way, shape or form for additional consideration to complete the deal. In fact, in a PM just this evening, Ron admitted the same. I requested that he not ship me the cue on 12/16, and immediately rejected the cue on 12/17 after I inspected it, and telephoned him to let him know. He, and he alone, suggested that he infuse additional consideration into the deal to get me to ship him my White cue, which he just had to have. The only mistake I made was agreeing to take the case as additional consideration and not shipping his cue back on 12/17.

So, I'm the one that's out about $110.00 on shipping. Ron, on the other hand, is out nothing. I got the short end of the stick, but learned a valuable lesson. When someone has misrepresented the condition of a cue, as Ron did (as Ron informed in a PM late night, if a cue hits great like this White, he does not care about chips in the butt cap, a noticeable ding in the forearm and a scratch you would have to be blind not to see, and apparently does not see fit to accurately represent the cue to someone he knows is going to resell it), ship it back at once and have no discussion at all with the person who has made the misrepresentations. It's not worth it. I've done more successful and flawless cue deals than most people on this site, and have received very positive feedback. This deal went wrong as soon as Ron decided to misrepresent the condition of his White cue. He knew from the first time that we spoke that I only deal in Mint or Near Mint cues. Ron's cue was neither, not even close. So, these are the true facts.

I will not engage in debate about this transaction. None of you who were so quick to accept Ron's version of the "facts" and judge the situation were present to know the true state of affairs. I was and do, and my conscious is clear. I have now given a completely accurate account of how the deal transpired. Judging someone based upon one person's view of the "facts" is wrong, and displays ignorance in its most basic form. That's why I choose not to jump on the band wagon when someone is being beat up on a thread. Why anyone would believe Ron's version of the "facts" when he blatantly misrepresented the condition of a cue is beyond me. So, this is my first and last post to this nasty thread. I will continue selling only mint or near mint cues, and nothing in the thread will dissuade me from doing so. I have a list of customers a mile long, and have completed countless smooth transactions, many with repeat customers.

Best to all (even those who have bashed me on this thread -- I remain unblemished) in the New Year.
 
sebas said:
are inaccurate as the number changes as you use different pressure.

I have been using digital calipers for my whole adult life. I think I know what I'm doing.

Thanks to buffalofloyd for a great deal and working out the details in a very respectful manner.

I have bought cues before that the claimed shaft size and the actual shaft size was ludicrous. And twice it happened to me while dealing with guys that are known on here as reputable. Anybody that has been doing this for a long period of time can tell by looking when a shaft is much smaller than the claim.

Buffalofloyd's measurements showed 12.5mm, when the cue was 12.1mm. (which for me is unusable) I believe 1000% he had very good intentions. Like he and I both said previously, we worked out in a very open and professional manner and we both left happy. I have done this long enough to know when someone is bs'ing me. His genuiness was easily recognizable and appreciated. :)

As far as this thread goes, there are certain dealers on here similar to used car salesmen. Whatever they have is the greatest Mottey, or the greatest Andy Gilbert, or the greatest whatever that ever hit the market and anything you own is a piece of shit. Funny how that works. :rolleyes:

Sincerely,
Jimmy Kissinger
 
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Quality Cues said:
I was waiting to receive my White cue back before I gave the true account about what occurred with respect to this transaction. That's right, Ron's version of the facts does not comport with reality. Surprise, surprise, he omitted material facts. The facts are as follows:

Ron wanted to trade a used White wrapless cue for an August 2007 White hoppe cue that was in MINT condition (one shaft test hit only). I spoke with him on the phone and he suggested that I look at the AZB thread from which he purchased the cue earlier this month, so I did. The thread gave all the specs on the cue, except for the length. It also said that there was a scratch in the butt end of the cue that could be polished out. It said nothing about multiple chips in the butt cap or a noticeable ding in the butt sleeve. After I looked at the thread, I called Ron and asked him point blank if he could see the scratch or any dings or dents in the cue. He said "no" and that the cue had been polished by the prior owner. So, I believed that I would be getting a used, but near mint condition cue if the deal proceeded. We agreed that he would ship me his White cue and $100.00 at his expense by USPS Express Mail, and if I accepted the cue, I would ship him my White by USPS Express Mail on the day I received his cue. Alternatively, if I rejected his White cue, I would ship it back at my expense by USPS Express Mail.

On 12/16, Ron was on the way to the Post Office, I called him and told him not to ship his White as one of the tips looked paper thin and I did not want to deal with getting it retipped. There are no cue makers anywhere near where I live and I do not retip cues. I asked for no additional consideration. Ron immediately offered me an extra $25 to get the shaft retipped, and I accepted, thinking I would have it done at the DCC in three weeks. Again, I asked for nothing.

I received the cue on 12/17. I immediately called Ron and told him that contrary to his representations, the cue had several chips in the butt cap, a noticeable ding in the butt sleeve between the rings, and a very noticeable scratch that went through one of the rings in the sleeve/handle section. I told him that I was rejecting the cue and was going to ship him his cue and case back that afternoon by USPS Express Mail at my expense, as agreed. I asked for no additional consideration. He immediately offered me an extra $125.00 to complete the deal. I told him that the condition of his cue was not the kind of cue that I deal in. I only sell brand new/unchalked or near mint condition cues (cues that are like new, but chalked with no dings, dents or scratches). After some discussion, we agreed that I would keep the 1x2 hard case he shipped the White to me in. At this time, I had no idea that the cue was 59" and nobody ever told me that it was. On 12/17, I shipped my White cue by USPS Express Mail and e-mailed Ron copies of the shipping documents (something that I almost always do).

That evening, after dinner I hit the White cue, and it hit just fine. After I played a match at my house with my Nitti cue, I speced out the White cue that Ron had delivered earlier in the day. To my dismay, the cue was 59". This was when I learned for the first time that the cue was 59" as opposed to 58". I called Ron on Saturday morning and told him that he had traded me a 59" cue that would be very difficult, if not impossible, to resell and that I wanted my cue back. I offered to pay for the return shipping on my cue and ship his cue back at my expense by USPS Express Mail, as we originally had agreed in the event that I rejected his cue. After he played with my cue in a tournament on Saturday, he e-mailed and told me that my cue would be returned upon receipt of his White, the case and $160.00. Today, I shipped Ron his White, case and a $160.00 USPS money order, and e-mail him copies of the receipts for the shipping and money order.

The way I read Ron's version of the "facts," he would have you all believe that I pressured him into giving me additional consideration to complete the deal. To the contrary, I never, repeat, never, asked Ron in any way, shape or form for additional consideration to complete the deal. In fact, in a PM just this evening, Ron admitted the same. I requested that he not ship me the cue on 12/16, and immediately rejected the cue on 12/17 after I inspected it, and telephoned him to let him know. He, and he alone, suggested that he infuse additional consideration into the deal to get me to ship him my White cue, which he just had to have. The only mistake I made was agreeing to take the case as additional consideration and not shipping his cue back on 12/17.

So, I'm the one that's out about $110.00 on shipping. Ron, on the other hand, is out nothing. I got the short end of the stick, but learned a valuable lesson. When someone has misrepresented the condition of a cue, as Ron did (as Ron informed in a PM late night, if a cue hits great like this White, he does not care about chips in the butt cap, a noticeable ding in the forearm and a scratch you would have to be blind not to see, and apparently does not see fit to accurately represent the cue to someone he knows is going to resell it), ship it back at once and have no discussion at all with the person who has made the misrepresentations. It's not worth it. I've done more successful and flawless cue deals than most people on this site, and have received very positive feedback. This deal went wrong as soon as Ron decided to misrepresent the condition of his White cue. He knew from the first time that we spoke that I only deal in Mint or Near Mint cues. Ron's cue was neither, not even close. So, these are the true facts.

I will not engage in debate about this transaction. None of you who were so quick to accept Ron's version of the "facts" and judge the situation were present to know the true state of affairs. I was and do, and my conscious is clear. I have now given a completely accurate account of how the deal transpired. Judging someone based upon one person's view of the "facts" is wrong, and displays ignorance in its most basic form. That's why I choose not to jump on the band wagon when someone is being beat up on a thread. Why anyone would believe Ron's version of the "facts" when he blatantly misrepresented the condition of a cue is beyond me. So, this is my first and last post to this nasty thread. I will continue selling only mint or near mint cues, and nothing in the thread will dissuade me from doing so. I have a list of customers a mile long, and have completed countless smooth transactions, many with repeat customers.

Best to all (even those who have bashed me on this thread -- I remain unblemished) in the New Year.

Thus, the other side of the story is presented. The stories conflict marginally, but it is basically the same story simply told from a different perspective. There's no right and wrong here, just two people who's expectations weren't met.

It should be clear to everybody that when it comes to contemporary cues, Mike only wants cues that are like new and are perfectly straight and properly described. That's it. If anybody deals with him, please keep this in mind.

Chris
 
Read

Wow Mike, it is amazing that you actually paid the shipping back to the guy. There are plenty of people here that have gotten screwed by you in the past. The reason you have so many satisfied buyers is that you screw people when you buy the cues like you did me and several others on this site. You have no class. One day you will get screwed just like you screw other people. Sellers Beware! you could send him a brand new cue and he would still ask for something in return so he could make an extra $25 on the sell. My story:

I put a Hercek on Ebay. I had it up and it was getting bids. He emailed me and made an offer. He asked me if the cue was in good shape. I told him it was in good shape but that it was a players cue. He asked about the shafts. I told them they were straight and in my estimation without calipers one was approx 13mm and one was approx 12.75mm. He decided to buy the cue. I told him I would take it off Ebay pay the fees but he would pay fees if he didnt want it. He paid me with paypal and I sent it. Right after I sent it I talked to two people who post on here often(One of which has posted in this thread) and told them what I had done. The told me that I had made a giant mistake. They said that all Mike would do is ask for some money for this that or the other. Sure enough he called to say the cue wasn't perfect, and that the shafts had wobbles and that one of them was well below 13mm and one was well below 12.5mm. He wanted $150. Right away I said send it back and I will refund your money minus shipping. He refused to do so. He wanted me to pay the shipping. He then proceeded to reverse his credit card on paypal. After almost 3 months of going back and forth with him and with paypal he had his friend(obviously a business partner whose name I wont bring in to this now) call me to work things out. I finally just gave in and sold it to the friend as he said he wanted it for himself at a discounted price just to fix my paypal. Not too long after that, there was Mike, selling the cue after a refinish and new leather wrap by Sherbine(I think) with 2 perfectly straight shafts(Hmm how did Scott straighten them?). Vinniebarbarooch has the cue right now and I am sure he will vouch for me that the 2 shafts are 12.9mm and 12.6mm. So what Mike did was get a Hercek for $2250 instead of $2450, then spent the $200 he saved to have it refinished and rewrapped, then he sold it for approx. $2750(I cant remember it has been a while). All this for a couple of hundred bucks?

Now that I see there are others, at least 10 people that have pmed me about similar situations. It is easy to see how he has so many satisfied buyers huh?
It is really amazing that after everyone in the community started talking it was so easy to get a refund from him with shipping. There are plenty of reputable dealers on this site but he is not one of them.
 
sebas said:
Wow Mike, it is amazing that you actually paid the shipping back to the guy. There are plenty of people here that have gotten screwed by you in the past. The reason you have so many satisfied buyers is that you screw people when you buy the cues like you did me and several others on this site. You have no class. One day you will get screwed just like you screw other people. Sellers Beware! you could send him a brand new cue and he would still ask for something in return so he could make an extra $25 on the sell. My story:

I put a Hercek on Ebay. I had it up and it was getting bids. He emailed me and made an offer. He asked me if the cue was in good shape. I told him it was in good shape but that it was a players cue. He asked about the shafts. I told them they were straight and in my estimation without calipers one was approx 13mm and one was approx 12.75mm. He decided to buy the cue. I told him I would take it off Ebay pay the fees but he would pay fees if he didnt want it. He paid me with paypal and I sent it. Right after I sent it I talked to two people who post on here often(One of which has posted in this thread) and told them what I had done. The told me that I had made a giant mistake. They said that all Mike would do is ask for some money for this that or the other. Sure enough he called to say the cue wasn't perfect, and that the shafts had wobbles and that one of them was well below 13mm and one was well below 12.5mm. He wanted $150. Right away I said send it back and I will refund your money minus shipping. He refused to do so. He wanted me to pay the shipping. He then proceeded to reverse his credit card on paypal. After almost 3 months of going back and forth with him and with paypal he had his friend(obviously a business partner whose name I wont bring in to this now) call me to work things out. I finally just gave in and sold it to the friend as he said he wanted it for himself at a discounted price just to fix my paypal. Not too long after that, there was Mike, selling the cue after a refinish and new leather wrap by Sherbine(I think) with 2 perfectly straight shafts(Hmm how did Scott straighten them?). Vinniebarbarooch has the cue right now and I am sure he will vouch for me that the 2 shafts are 12.9mm and 12.6mm. So what Mike did was get a Hercek for $2250 instead of $2450, then spent the $200 he saved to have it refinished and rewrapped, then he sold it for approx. $2750(I cant remember it has been a while). All this for a couple of hundred bucks?

Now that I see there are others, at least 10 people that have pmed me about similar situations. It is easy to see how he has so many satisfied buyers huh?
It is really amazing that after everyone in the community started talking it was so easy to get a refund from him with shipping. There are plenty of reputable dealers on this site but he is not one of them.



I have to say, I sold the cue to Chris and it was in good condition and represented honestly. I can also say for fact that the shafts are 12.90mm and 12.60mm. One thing for sure, we don't have to worry about someone putting another aftermarket wrap on it. The cue was put back in it's original condition by Joel and the cue looks great now and isn't going anywhere soon.

<---------Before anyone else wants to alter one of your Hercek's please sell it to me first.:)
 
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There is a guy out of Alabama that has told me a long story about Mike screwing him out of a cue and cash.... Infact - Mike still has both....

I didn't believe a story like that until this thread has come about... Wonder if he will come forward?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quality Cues
I was waiting to receive my White cue back before I gave the true account about what occurred with respect to this transaction. That's right, Ron's version of the facts does not comport with reality. Surprise, surprise, he omitted material facts. The facts are as follows:

Ron wanted to trade a used White wrapless cue for an August 2007 White hoppe cue that was in MINT condition (one shaft test hit only). I spoke with him on the phone and he suggested that I look at the AZB thread from which he purchased the cue earlier this month, so I did. The thread gave all the specs on the cue, except for the length. It also said that there was a scratch in the butt end of the cue that could be polished out. It said nothing about multiple chips in the butt cap or a noticeable ding in the butt sleeve. After I looked at the thread, I called Ron and asked him point blank if he could see the scratch or any dings or dents in the cue. He said "no" and that the cue had been polished by the prior owner. So, I believed that I would be getting a used, but near mint condition cue if the deal proceeded. We agreed that he would ship me his White cue and $100.00 at his expense by USPS Express Mail, and if I accepted the cue, I would ship him my White by USPS Express Mail on the day I received his cue. Alternatively, if I rejected his White cue, I would ship it back at my expense by USPS Express Mail.

On 12/16, Ron was on the way to the Post Office, I called him and told him not to ship his White as one of the tips looked paper thin and I did not want to deal with getting it retipped. There are no cue makers anywhere near where I live and I do not retip cues. I asked for no additional consideration. Ron immediately offered me an extra $25 to get the shaft retipped, and I accepted, thinking I would have it done at the DCC in three weeks. Again, I asked for nothing.

I received the cue on 12/17. I immediately called Ron and told him that contrary to his representations, the cue had several chips in the butt cap, a noticeable ding in the butt sleeve between the rings, and a very noticeable scratch that went through one of the rings in the sleeve/handle section. I told him that I was rejecting the cue and was going to ship him his cue and case back that afternoon by USPS Express Mail at my expense, as agreed. I asked for no additional consideration. He immediately offered me an extra $125.00 to complete the deal. I told him that the condition of his cue was not the kind of cue that I deal in. I only sell brand new/unchalked or near mint condition cues (cues that are like new, but chalked with no dings, dents or scratches). After some discussion, we agreed that I would keep the 1x2 hard case he shipped the White to me in. At this time, I had no idea that the cue was 59" and nobody ever told me that it was. On 12/17, I shipped my White cue by USPS Express Mail and e-mailed Ron copies of the shipping documents (something that I almost always do).

That evening, after dinner I hit the White cue, and it hit just fine. After I played a match at my house with my Nitti cue, I speced out the White cue that Ron had delivered earlier in the day. To my dismay, the cue was 59". This was when I learned for the first time that the cue was 59" as opposed to 58". I called Ron on Saturday morning and told him that he had traded me a 59" cue that would be very difficult, if not impossible, to resell and that I wanted my cue back. I offered to pay for the return shipping on my cue and ship his cue back at my expense by USPS Express Mail, as we originally had agreed in the event that I rejected his cue. After he played with my cue in a tournament on Saturday, he e-mailed and told me that my cue would be returned upon receipt of his White, the case and $160.00. Today, I shipped Ron his White, case and a $160.00 USPS money order, and e-mail him copies of the receipts for the shipping and money order.

The way I read Ron's version of the "facts," he would have you all believe that I pressured him into giving me additional consideration to complete the deal. To the contrary, I never, repeat, never, asked Ron in any way, shape or form for additional consideration to complete the deal. In fact, in a PM just this evening, Ron admitted the same. I requested that he not ship me the cue on 12/16, and immediately rejected the cue on 12/17 after I inspected it, and telephoned him to let him know. He, and he alone, suggested that he infuse additional consideration into the deal to get me to ship him my White cue, which he just had to have. The only mistake I made was agreeing to take the case as additional consideration and not shipping his cue back on 12/17.

So, I'm the one that's out about $110.00 on shipping. Ron, on the other hand, is out nothing. I got the short end of the stick, but learned a valuable lesson. When someone has misrepresented the condition of a cue, as Ron did (as Ron informed in a PM late night, if a cue hits great like this White, he does not care about chips in the butt cap, a noticeable ding in the forearm and a scratch you would have to be blind not to see, and apparently does not see fit to accurately represent the cue to someone he knows is going to resell it), ship it back at once and have no discussion at all with the person who has made the misrepresentations. It's not worth it. I've done more successful and flawless cue deals than most people on this site, and have received very positive feedback. This deal went wrong as soon as Ron decided to misrepresent the condition of his White cue. He knew from the first time that we spoke that I only deal in Mint or Near Mint cues. Ron's cue was neither, not even close. So, these are the true facts.

I will not engage in debate about this transaction. None of you who were so quick to accept Ron's version of the "facts" and judge the situation were present to know the true state of affairs. I was and do, and my conscious is clear. I have now given a completely accurate account of how the deal transpired. Judging someone based upon one person's view of the "facts" is wrong, and displays ignorance in its most basic form. That's why I choose not to jump on the band wagon when someone is being beat up on a thread. Why anyone would believe Ron's version of the "facts" when he blatantly misrepresented the condition of a cue is beyond me. So, this is my first and last post to this nasty thread. I will continue selling only mint or near mint cues, and nothing in the thread will dissuade me from doing so. I have a list of customers a mile long, and have completed countless smooth transactions, many with repeat customers.

Best to all (even those who have bashed me on this thread -- I remain unblemished) in the New Year.


My guess is that both gave there best rendition of the transaction, and that the actual facts will be found in the middle. and I will also remind quality cues that most, or a lot of folks ,gave an opinion that said clearly : if this what actualy happend...Then...
We have all seen enough of this type of thing to give the possibility of some inaccuracy. but you may do better just to tell folks you must have a cue in hand to evaluate it, as there are to many things you may find as issues that others dont see as any thing noteworthy.
I have been disturbed by lot of stuff in a few recent transactions lately, although i guess i can see how they came up with some there descriptions like...very straight for its age... Or one I cant quite believe, this one is my fu*king favorite! from a VERY WELL KNOWN cue maker was I DID THE BEST I COULD....YEA RIGHT!... we all know making a joint ring wrong is my fault for not wanting a new shaft?????
just thinking if you expect (near mint), you may just have to evaluate it in person BEFORE making a deal. or spend $150 on a refinish.

Jayman.
 
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Hey guys,
I know I normally don't get involved in this, but I know how Sebas (Alias: Chris) works. And what he says, you can take to the bank. So, take into account the reputation of both parties involved. And if you've been in the cue business a while, make your own decision, and if you haven't, then you shouldn't post on this type of thread.
Greg
 
sebas said:
Wow Mike, it is amazing that you actually paid the shipping back to the guy. There are plenty of people here that have gotten screwed by you in the past. The reason you have so many satisfied buyers is that you screw people when you buy the cues like you did me and several others on this site. You have no class. One day you will get screwed just like you screw other people. Sellers Beware! you could send him a brand new cue and he would still ask for something in return so he could make an extra $25 on the sell. My story:

I put a Hercek on Ebay. I had it up and it was getting bids. He emailed me and made an offer. He asked me if the cue was in good shape. I told him it was in good shape but that it was a players cue. He asked about the shafts. I told them they were straight and in my estimation without calipers one was approx 13mm and one was approx 12.75mm. He decided to buy the cue. I told him I would take it off Ebay pay the fees but he would pay fees if he didnt want it. He paid me with paypal and I sent it. Right after I sent it I talked to two people who post on here often(One of which has posted in this thread) and told them what I had done. The told me that I had made a giant mistake. They said that all Mike would do is ask for some money for this that or the other. Sure enough he called to say the cue wasn't perfect, and that the shafts had wobbles and that one of them was well below 13mm and one was well below 12.5mm. He wanted $150. Right away I said send it back and I will refund your money minus shipping. He refused to do so. He wanted me to pay the shipping. He then proceeded to reverse his credit card on paypal. After almost 3 months of going back and forth with him and with paypal he had his friend(obviously a business partner whose name I wont bring in to this now) call me to work things out. I finally just gave in and sold it to the friend as he said he wanted it for himself at a discounted price just to fix my paypal. Not too long after that, there was Mike, selling the cue after a refinish and new leather wrap by Sherbine(I think) with 2 perfectly straight shafts(Hmm how did Scott straighten them?). Vinniebarbarooch has the cue right now and I am sure he will vouch for me that the 2 shafts are 12.9mm and 12.6mm. So what Mike did was get a Hercek for $2250 instead of $2450, then spent the $200 he saved to have it refinished and rewrapped, then he sold it for approx. $2750(I cant remember it has been a while). All this for a couple of hundred bucks?

Now that I see there are others, at least 10 people that have pmed me about similar situations. It is easy to see how he has so many satisfied buyers huh?
It is really amazing that after everyone in the community started talking it was so easy to get a refund from him with shipping. There are plenty of reputable dealers on this site but he is not one of them.

In case anyone has any doubts, Chris Sebastian here is an excellent person to deal with. He knows his stuff, describes it well, and delivers.

Chris
 
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