Shaft Deflection or Squirt

Hi Guys, Just getting back into the game and got my table set up in the basement.

Been lurking here for a couple weeks, and I see all the tests on Deflection based on the shaft.

Ok, I can see how a stiffer shaft would lead to less deflection but I do not see any comparison on the different cue tips.

Are there any tests that show what deflection we can expect using a hard, medium, or soft cue tip on the same shaft?

Regards,
Crankster
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Hi Guys, Just getting back into the game and got my table set up in the basement.

Been lurking here for a couple weeks, and I see all the tests on Deflection based on the shaft.

Ok, I can see how a stiffer shaft would lead to less deflection but I do not see any comparison on the different cue tips.

Are there any tests that show what deflection we can expect using a hard, medium, or soft cue tip on the same shaft?

Regards,
Crankster
I'll let the more versed science guys tackle the explanation, but there should be no difference in deflection from tip hardness.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Guys, Just getting back into the game and got my table set up in the basement.

Been lurking here for a couple weeks, and I see all the tests on Deflection based on the shaft.

Ok, I can see how a stiffer shaft would lead to less deflection but I do not see any comparison on the different cue tips.

Are there any tests that show what deflection we can expect using a hard, medium, or soft cue tip on the same shaft?

Regards,
Crankster
https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2014/june14.pdf Shaft end mass is what causes deflection. Tip has little-to-nada to do with it.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Hi Guys, Just getting back into the game and got my table set up in the basement.

Been lurking here for a couple weeks, and I see all the tests on Deflection based on the shaft.

Ok, I can see how a stiffer shaft would lead to less deflection but I do not see any comparison on the different cue tips.

Are there any tests that show what deflection we can expect using a hard, medium, or soft cue tip on the same shaft?

Regards,
Crankster

The shaft deflects and cb squirts….but the manufacturers since they began making them are describing what the cue ball does! A “low deflection” shaft actually deflects more, which makes the cb squirt less when struck woth an offset tip.

The effects between soft and hard tips on the same shaft and same tip offset when struck is negligible enough to say it is a moot point…the tip has no bearing.

Now that doesn’t mean a very whippy long pro tapered shaft with a long ferrule that’s solid wood is low deflection. Shaft stiffness again, isn’t the cause it’s the end mass creating the effect.

Hope that helps you understand the issue.






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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I can see how a stiffer shaft would lead to less deflection
That's a little counterintuitive - most think a stiffer shaft creates more CB squirt. For example:
A “low deflection” shaft actually deflects more, which makes the cb squirt less
But shaft stiffness really doesn't affect squirt one way or the other - it's all about the amount of weight near the tip ("end mass").

pj
chgo
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
That's a little counterintuitive - most think a stiffer shaft creates more CB squirt. For example:

But shaft stiffness really doesn't affect squirt one way or the other - it's all about the amount of weight near the tip ("end mass").

pj
chgo

You read that “wrong” he was thinking of the terminology as the industry uses it big backwards….which has always been the effect.

So I was trying to explain to him the shaft deflects, cue ballls squirt so a low deflection shaft really put to be called a low squirt shaft…Meucci and predator didn’t like that and I guess they didn’t like calling the shaft “high deflection” that causes low squirt….

You know as well as I it has caused players learning and thinking the wrong thing for 30 years basically.

It’s 2021 we should cancel their terms already lol


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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hi Guys, Just getting back into the game and got my table set up in the basement.

Been lurking here for a couple weeks, and I see all the tests on Deflection based on the shaft.

Ok, I can see how a stiffer shaft would lead to less deflection but I do not see any comparison on the different cue tips.

Are there any tests that show what deflection we can expect using a hard, medium, or soft cue tip on the same shaft?

Regards,
Crankster

For lots of info on these topics, see:

what causes CB deflection
shaft endmass and stiffness effects
cue tip hardness effects (especially the stuff related to squirt)

Enjoy!
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I was trying to explain to him the shaft deflects, cue ballls squirt so a low deflection shaft really put to be called a low squirt shaft…Meucci and predator didn’t like that and I guess they didn’t like calling the shaft “high deflection” that causes low squirt…
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it looks like you're saying more shaft deflection = less CB deflection (and vice verse). That's what I was reacting to - saying no, it's only end mass that causes more or less CB deflection (squirt).

Sorry if I'm still reading you wrong...

pj
chgo
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2014/june14.pdf Shaft end mass is what causes deflection. Tip has little-to-nada to do with it.

The more the tip weights, the more the end mass of the cue. Thus, you can't take the position that the tip plays no part. Small yes, but none: no.

But shaft stiffness really doesn't affect squirt one way or the other - it's all about the amount of weight near the tip ("end mass").
In order to make the shaft stiffer and retain its (thin) profile, you have to make it weigh more. This effect may be minor as most of the added mass may be away from the end where it counts.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The more the tip weights, the more the end mass of the cue. Thus, you can't take the position that the tip plays no part. Small yes, but none: no.

FYI, here is a pertinent quote from the cue tip hardness effects resource page:

"There are many factors related to tip hardness that could influence squirt, including: tip density/weight, tip efficiency, contact time, and effective endmass. “Return of the squirt robot” (BD, August, 2008) documents an experiment related to the effects of tip hardness on squirt. A softer tip did seem to create slightly more squirt, but the experiment was not very well controlled (see the article for more info). In general, if the contact time is longer (as is the case with a softer tip), the effective endmass and resulting squirt should be larger (see the rubber-super-ball-tip report as an example). Another set of more careful experiments documented in the Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt) video and “Cue Tip Squirt Testing” (BD, June, 2014) seem to imply that tip type, hardness, and height have very little effect on shaft squirt. Among the wide range of tips tested in the video, the harder tips did result in slightly more squirt. This makes sense because the harder tips are denser and heavier, creating more “endmass.” The shorter contact time seems to be less of a factor than the added weight."


In order to make the shaft stiffer and retain its (thin) profile, you have to make it weigh more.

... unless you replace a wood shaft with a carbon fiber shaft. Then you can make the shaft stiffer, stronger, and lighter with the same profile.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it looks like you're saying more shaft deflection = less CB deflection (and vice verse). That's what I was reacting to - saying no, it's only end mass that causes more or less CB deflection (squirt).

Sorry if I'm still reading you wrong...

pj
chgo

Yes exactly lower the end mass the more it’ll deflect from given tip offset causing the cb to squirt less, staying closer to its intended line of travel.


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greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
This is generally true for maple shafts, but not for carbon fiber shafts. For more info, see the endmass/stiffness resource page.

Sure but now we’re fine splitting hairs….as well as being very general then speaking of extremes that could be mistaken for more generalizations.

If you wanted a shaft for a fouetté shot exhibition I’d make it out of cherry and install a brass ferrule, or possibly just make threaded brass tennon if I wanted to keep secrets. It would have a barely visible negative rake from the ferrule to about 6”where it would then rise another 4 to a parallel “taper” another 5….give a flexible wood a whip taper with a hinge In The front.

A carbon shaft could do it too but it’s taper would be extremely interesting. Let’s not forget that what predator and Becue and others are putting out is not the engineering marvel they market it to be.

Trek was doing ground breaking stuff with carbon 20 years ago. Honeycomb and multi directional fiber giving stiffness and flex where it had to be. 4K for just a frame….and here we are with 600$ black Virginia slims filled with foam .

So cheap and repeatable I fully expect to buy one for 39.99 and get two free in various tapers.

Sorry doc I was making a good point then deflected and squirted swerved and squirved off topic. It won’t happen again…till tomorrow


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Thunder Thighs

learning daily...
Silver Member
Are there any tests that show what deflection we can expect using a hard, medium, or soft cue tip on the same shaft?
There was a guy here not long ago that was selling "low deflection tips". I didn't buy in to his explanation of how it worked. I don't think anyone did.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
There was a guy here not long ago that was selling "low deflection tips". I didn't buy in to his explanation of how it worked. I don't think anyone did.

How much was he asking?

I’d sell some for 2$ and ship a lil rabbit turd



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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think I've heard you say a stiffer shaft adds a very small amount of squirt - have you estimated the likely percentage added given a typical increase in shaft stiffness/wave travel? Is it negligible?
Here’s the only analysis I’ve done characterizing stiffness effects:
https://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_B-19.pdf
The stiffness change effects (direct and “endmass”) in changing from wood to carbon fiber are definitely not “negligible.”
 

Thunder Thighs

learning daily...
Silver Member
How much was he asking?
I’d sell some for 2$ and ship a lil rabbit turd
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12 bucks I think. Click below to see it.

 
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