shaft taper question ?

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it possible to have a "stiff" shaft, but also a longish pro-taper? I've never been able to get used to cues such as SW because I never cared for the way the wood grew so much in diameter from the tip. I played with a Skip Weston shaft for awhile that I liked. It seemed to have a longish pro-taper (or at least the wood grew slowly from the tip), yet the hit had a nice firm/stiff feel. It is my understanding he used an "S taper".

Are there any cuemakers out there that use a similar taper, or can make a shaft that is both stiff, yet have a relaxed taper through the stroke area? I definately don't want a "whippy" shaft.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Doug
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Is it possible to have a "stiff" shaft, but also a longish pro-taper? I've never been able to get used to cues such as SW because I never cared for the way the wood grew so much in diameter from the tip. I played with a Skip Weston shaft for awhile that I liked. It seemed to have a longish pro-taper (or at least the wood grew slowly from the tip), yet the hit had a nice firm/stiff feel. It is my understanding he used an "S taper".

Are there any cuemakers out there that use a similar taper, or can make a shaft that is both stiff, yet have a relaxed taper through the stroke area? I definately don't want a "whippy" shaft.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Doug

Yes.
You will need hand picked tight grain shaft and the " pro-taper " has to be modified a little so you have gradual increase in the stroking area of the shaft .
I don't really know any pro who plays with a stock SW shaft.
I think for most people 2MM increase in 12 inches is just too much.
 

Russell Cues

Maverick Cue Builder
Silver Member
There as many shaft tapers as there are cue makers, that said, my shafts have a small "pro taper" and gradually increases in size, a stiff taper with just enough " flex" to allow english to be applied without a lot of effort. Basically stiff but not too stiff.

You can't feel the increase in diameter readily.
 
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Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes.
I don't really know any pro who plays with a stock SW shaft.
I think for most people 2MM increase in 12 inches is just too much.

Exactly. For me it feels "clumsy", almost like I'm hitting with a 2x4. I need more "spine" though than a Meucchi. Thanks.
 

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There as many shaft tapers as there are cue makers, that said, my shafts have a small "pro taper" and gradually increases in size, a stiff taper with just enough " flex" to allow english to be applied without a lot of effort. Basically stiff but not too stiff.

You can't feel the increase in diameter readily.

That sounds about what I'm looking for. I'll keep you in mind. I don't mind some growth for sure, I just can't stand the house cue feel.
 

97Buick22

Go Blackhawks!
Silver Member
Doug, Where is your hand at when you stroke the ball on the shaft? How long is your bridge? What dia you you prefer at the tip? These are all variables as well as Joeys thoughts are agreed as well. All my shafts have a constant taper from the tip to the joint. No matter if the shaft is 11mm or 13mm at the tip. I'm not trying to sell you a shaft, just giving you some advice to go on.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Any taper can vary in stiffness depending on the wood. You must also consider joint diameter. Thicker joint diameter means the taper must eventually climb further, giving more rigidity because there's more wood. Joint diameter as well as taper are both factors in shaft weight, too. That's something many folks don't consider. More wood = more weight. More wood = more stiffness. Combine a thicker joint with some nice old, yellow wood & you'll have a heavy & stiff shaft no matter what taper it has (within reason). Food for thought...
 

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Doug, Where is your hand at when you stroke the ball on the shaft? How long is your bridge? What dia you you prefer at the tip? These are all variables as well as Joeys thoughts are agreed as well. All my shafts have a constant taper from the tip to the joint. No matter if the shaft is 11mm or 13mm at the tip. I'm not trying to sell you a shaft, just giving you some advice to go on.

Good point. I have a fairly long bridge. Although my main games are straight pool and one pocket, I prefer to let my stroke out. I don't care for "low deflection" shafts. I play often with an open bridge. I prefer 12.6/12.75 mm diameter.

Thank you for the comments.
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Any taper can vary in stiffness depending on the wood. You must also consider joint diameter. Thicker joint diameter means the taper must eventually climb further, giving more rigidity because there's more wood. Joint diameter as well as taper are both factors in shaft weight, too. That's something many folks don't consider. More wood = more weight. More wood = more stiffness. Combine a thicker joint with some nice old, yellow wood & you'll have a heavy & stiff shaft no matter what taper it has (within reason). Food for thought...

SW's have .835" joint.:eek::grin:
Compound angles work for me. At .855. :grin:
 

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Any taper can vary in stiffness depending on the wood. You must also consider joint diameter. Thicker joint diameter means the taper must eventually climb further, giving more rigidity because there's more wood. Joint diameter as well as taper are both factors in shaft weight, too. That's something many folks don't consider. More wood = more weight. More wood = more stiffness. Combine a thicker joint with some nice old, yellow wood & you'll have a heavy & stiff shaft no matter what taper it has (within reason). Food for thought...

Thank you. Food for thought.

Perhaps that is why I tend to like Skip Weston's taper. It stays fairly straight from the joint about 4 or 5 inches (very thick). Then dips down fairly quickly in an S turn. Then very gradual taper to the tip. It seems to have be fairly rigid, yet has that gradual taper through the stroke area that I like.

Thanks everyone for the comments thus far! :thumbup:
 
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conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it possible to have a "stiff" shaft, but also a longish pro-taper? I've never been able to get used to cues such as SW because I never cared for the way the wood grew so much in diameter from the tip. I played with a Skip Weston shaft for awhile that I liked. It seemed to have a longish pro-taper (or at least the wood grew slowly from the tip), yet the hit had a nice firm/stiff feel. It is my understanding he used an "S taper".

Are there any cuemakers out there that use a similar taper, or can make a shaft that is both stiff, yet have a relaxed taper through the stroke area? I definately don't want a "whippy" shaft.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Doug

Something else to consider is the diameter at the region that you mostly bridge at from the tip. It seems that this for some people is far more important than tip size. Take a close look at a snooker cue and you will see what I mean. There is a video of Sullivan making a 147 this year. about 7 mins long.There is a nice close up of his cue shaft, you see the taper on the shaft and you see how is comes down quickly over 50 mm or so to the 9mm or so tip. It looks like the bridge point is still in the 13mm or so diameter range.
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Thank you. Food for thought.

Perhaps that is why I tend to like Skip Weston's taper. It stays fairly straight from the joint about 4 or 5 inches (very thick). Then dips down fairly quickly in an S turn. Then very gradual taper to the tip. It seems to have be fairly rigid, yet has that gradual taper through the stroke area that I like.

Thanks everyone for the comments thus far! :thumbup:

Hi,

I think what your are describing on Skip's cues is a parabolic curve into a modern pro taper climb at the end similar to the Omega DPK Cues. I just reconditioned a couple of Mike Bender shafts at my shop and he also has a killer stiff hitting shaft taper design.

There is a million variations and permutations of this geometry or any other shaft taper and each cue maker plots his taper bar for his own specific profile. Eric is absolutely correct about the density playing just as much a factor as the geometry. So having 4.0 oz or better at 13mm for example would bring out the best situation for the stiff hit. Shaft taper and quality of the shaft wood are the most important elements of any playing cue.

I am a firm believer of this approach, the parabolic end is usually from about the joint to 15" to 16" to form a stiff spine contour and then it graduates to a 13MM tip end but there is no standard or road map. IMO this configuration allows the player to put more english to the cue ball with less tip widths of english. Or better said, you can hit closer to center ball when you want to use side english.

One of the good features of the pro taper is that there is a climb through the bridge area and if you are using a closed bridge, the cue shaft become tighter in that bridge which actually makes the stroke alignment more accurate. Many times you will observe a player with a real skinny shaft within a closed bridge and the cue is only interfacing the lower part of the finger bridge and because it is not encircled with the finger flesh and it is essentially an open bridge. The climb through the bridge zone is a real plus if understood and used properly.

If you view Willie Mosconi's bridge you will notice how tight his forefinger encircles the shaft through the entire stroke.

My partner and mentor Mr. Ray Hernandez is a retired Tool & Die engineer and was the last guy to build cues in Waconda in the Omega Shop. Ray is a good one pocket player and fell in love with Omega's taper. When we built our taper bar we used the Omega Shaft as our "Start Datum" and took a slight amount of the parabolic taper out in the 1st 16 inches downstream of the joint and then plotted the pro contour to the tip.

Ray plotted way over 1000 vector points on Auto Cad to create the G-Code to mill our aluminum bar so that out taper was not just a random contour. It was specifically designed to exceed the stiff hit of the Omega Design because he extrapolated the spine geometry in that direction and the CNC interpreter program quantized the vector points to create the curve.

I can see you are high on Ship's shaft contour and I think what Neil was saying about the snooker cue taper hits on this concept but at an outside end of an envelope because to the snooker cue player's preference. Tony has also explained how he has basically done what we did in our shop only he took a little stiffness out as that is his and many other people's preferences.

Disclaimer: I am not against open bridges, skinny shafts or other shaft designs and don't want to get anyone pissed off because they like something else. Efron Rayes's preference is at the other end of the spectrum and he plays with a 11MM shafts and a soft tip. He is the Magician.:bow-down:

Rick G

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Chrippa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great thread

Thx for all your inputs and all long hours you put in to achieve this knowledge.

Thx for sharing!!

Chrippa
 

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi,

I think what your are describing on Skip's cues is a parabolic curve into a modern pro taper climb at the end similar to the Omega DPK Cues. I just reconditioned a couple of Mike Bender shafts at my shop and he also has a killer stiff hitting shaft taper design.

I can see you are high on Ship's shaft contour and I think what Neil was saying about the snooker cue taper hits on this concept but at an outside end of an envelope because to the snooker cue player's preference. [/IMG]

Thank you for the comments Rick. However, I don't think that Skip's taper is anywhere close to the Omega taper. My SW's have I believe what is very similar to your taper (they look almost identical to the photo you posted), which is essentially a parabolic taper but with a little more wood removed (more relaxed). SW calls this their "pro-taper" or "Szamboti" taper. While I consider it better (for me) than SW "standard" taper, it still does not quite get there for me. Remarkably enough, Skip's shaft is actually stiffer than my SW shafts. Which is interesting because the shafts "pro-taper" area looks to be almost 15 inches back from the tip. In other words, the shaft grows very slowly for the first 15 inches, then swells up quickly, then is aprox. the joint diameter for about 4 or 5 inches to the joint. (Imagine a stretched out S) To look at it, you would think it would be whippy as hell. But it isn't. I'm not a Skip groupie by any means either....I've played with other cues that have the "playability" I like, I just can't remember what their shafts were like.

Maybe it is just me, but I feel that I can stroke the ball better and aim better with less growth through the stroke area. It really weirds me out playing with a house cue, snooker cue, or any cue that has significant growth through the stroke area. Now that said, a friend of mine thinks the perfect shaft would be a "wedge" from tip to joint. Ughhh. But to each his own.

Again, thanks for taking the time to comment. Although not a cuemaker, I really enjoy reading and learning about the technical aspects of what makes cue tick. And I marvel at the expertise that you guys put into your profession.

Doug
 
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scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Thank you for the comments Rick. However, I don't think that Skip's taper is anywhere close to the Omega taper. My SW's have I believe what is very similar to your taper (they look almost identical to the photo you posted), which is essentially a parabolic taper but with a little more wood removed (more relaxed). SW calls this their "pro-taper" or "Szamboti" taper. While I consider it better (for me) than SW "standard" taper, it still does not quite get there for me. Remarkably enough, Skip's shaft is actually stiffer than my SW shafts. Which is interesting because the shafts "pro-taper" area looks to be almost 15 inches back from the tip. In other words, the shaft grows very slowly for the first 15 inches, then swells up quickly, then is aprox. the joint diameter for about 4 or 5 inches to the joint. (Imagine a stretched out S) To look at it, you would think it would be whippy as hell. But it isn't. I'm not a Skip groupie by any means either....I've played with other cues that have the "playability" I like, I just can't remember what their shafts were like.

Maybe it is just me, but I feel that I can stroke the ball better and aim better with less growth through the stroke area. It really weirds me out playing with a house cue, snooker cue, or any cue that has significant growth through the stroke area. Now that said, a friend of mine thinks the perfect shaft would be a "wedge" from tip to joint. Ughhh. But to each his own.

Again, thanks for taking the time to comment. Although not a cuemaker, I really enjoy reading and learning about the technical aspects of what makes cue tick. And I marvel at the expertise that you guys put into your profession.

Doug

Hi Doug,

If you have a long stroke I understand your thinking. My Willy comparison is not the way everyone approaches the game. Willy was not a free wheeling rhythm player, he was very deliberate and had a soft stroke. My friend Wendell could run 150s back to back in straight pool and he has a very firm but very short kind of poke stroke for control. In the day he played with a Bill Stroud Joss West with a 15 mm tip for One Pocket and Straight Pool. Everyone has to find what works best for them.

You friend could be right about the wedge or what would be called conical on a rod. Joey Gold has that type of taper and people love the playability of his cues big time. Then again even the conical style has variances to accommodate for the bridge and the joint closure fit. Each cue maker does it different.

For me I am staying with what brought me to the dance because I am working 12 hours a day to try to keep up. My sales are only based on people who played with my cues and like the firm feed back.

If I just continue to work on that niche of the cue market, I think I will not have to rob my retirement account.:help:

If you are liking the shaft you have now don't change and if you want to get a new cue go with the same but make sure you have him give you the pick of the litter for shaft density.

Thanks,

Rick G
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Thank you for the comments Rick. However, I don't think that Skip's taper is anywhere close to the Omega taper. My SW's have I believe what is very similar to your taper (they look almost identical to the photo you posted), which is essentially a parabolic taper but with a little more wood removed (more relaxed). SW calls this their "pro-taper" or "Szamboti" taper. While I consider it better (for me) than SW "standard" taper, it still does not quite get there for me. Remarkably enough, Skip's shaft is actually stiffer than my SW shafts. Which is interesting because the shafts "pro-taper" area looks to be almost 15 inches back from the tip. In other words, the shaft grows very slowly for the first 15 inches, then swells up quickly, then is aprox. the joint diameter for about 4 or 5 inches to the joint. (Imagine a stretched out S) To look at it, you would think it would be whippy as hell. But it isn't. I'm not a Skip groupie by any means either....I've played with other cues that have the "playability" I like, I just can't remember what their shafts were like.

Maybe it is just me, but I feel that I can stroke the ball better and aim better with less growth through the stroke area. It really weirds me out playing with a house cue, snooker cue, or any cue that has significant growth through the stroke area. Now that said, a friend of mine thinks the perfect shaft would be a "wedge" from tip to joint. Ughhh. But to each his own.

Again, thanks for taking the time to comment. Although not a cuemaker, I really enjoy reading and learning about the technical aspects of what makes cue tick. And I marvel at the expertise that you guys put into your profession.

Doug
Heaven forbid if you took your SW shaft to someone to have it re-tapered.
From talking to a few really good 9-ballers, MOST want that " pro-taper " .
That slight gradual increasing of the thickness in straight lines. Kinda like a long rifle or even a hangun. Somehow they are more "pointable" when you see the outside lines taper down to the front sight and target.
Your muscle memory IMO kicks in making up for the gradual taper in your bridge hand too . It's just loose enough in the front then tightens a little in your follow through.
We know cueball squirt is caused mostly by the end mass of the shaft ( around 5-6 inches from the tip ). To me it makes more sense to make a shaft that flexes in front of the bridge hand, not behind it.
So I don't like it too stiff in front b/c I think it squirts the cueball more ( it could be mental ).
In coming up with my taper, I spec out the 17 inches from the tip to a gradual increase. The first 3 inches from the joint down matches the butt's taper. From that 3rd inch from the collar to 17" from tip is the "wiggle room " if some wants a tip less 13MM. The taper from the tip to the 17" spot doesn't change much, just the diameter . Behind that 17" spot can get fat fast but it shouldn't affect your stroke that much. Unless you have a 17" bridge length.
I like mine around 12.50-12.75MM tip btw.
 

Lexicologist71

Rabid Schuler fanatic
Silver Member
I modeled my shaft taper after the Schuler Professional taper, just a tad stiffer. His 'pro' taper was pretty stiff to begin with. Mine grows about .035 in the first 10" before it transitions to a cone taper. It's quite stiff and I like it that way.
 

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joey,

Your description matches my interests almost exactly. Particularly the feel and aiming, as well as the cue ball squirt aspect. Your description of your shaft taper sounds somewhat similar to Weston's.

Thank you for the walkthrough of how it is done! By the way, all my SW shafts are all still original to Laurie. :smile:

Heaven forbid if you took your SW shaft to someone to have it re-tapered.
From talking to a few really good 9-ballers, MOST want that " pro-taper " .
That slight gradual increasing of the thickness in straight lines. Kinda like a long rifle or even a hangun. Somehow they are more "pointable" when you see the outside lines taper down to the front sight and target.
Your muscle memory IMO kicks in making up for the gradual taper in your bridge hand too . It's just loose enough in the front then tightens a little in your follow through.
We know cueball squirt is caused mostly by the end mass of the shaft ( around 5-6 inches from the tip ). To me it makes more sense to make a shaft that flexes in front of the bridge hand, not behind it.
So I don't like it too stiff in front b/c I think it squirts the cueball more ( it could be mental ).
In coming up with my taper, I spec out the 17 inches from the tip to a gradual increase. The first 3 inches from the joint down matches the butt's taper. From that 3rd inch from the collar to 17" from tip is the "wiggle room " if some wants a tip less 13MM. The taper from the tip to the 17" spot doesn't change much, just the diameter . Behind that 17" spot can get fat fast but it shouldn't affect your stroke that much. Unless you have a 17" bridge length.
I like mine around 12.50-12.75MM tip btw.
 

Salamander

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks Rick. I absolutely agree that different playing styles lend themselves to different shaft tapers. There is no right or wrong. My friend who likes the wedge or true cone taper is a very good player with a very compact, efficient stroke. A couple of years ago I had my ass handed to me by Steve "the lizard" Smith who was playing with a whippy Muecci.

I wish you the best in your cuemaking endeavors.

Doug




Hi Doug,

If you have a long stroke I understand your thinking. My Willy comparison is not the way everyone approaches the game. Willy was not a free wheeling rhythm player, he was very deliberate and had a soft stroke. My friend Wendell could run 150s back to back in straight pool and he has a very firm but very short kind of poke stroke for control. In the day he played with a Bill Stroud Joss West with a 15 mm tip for One Pocket and Straight Pool. Everyone has to find what works best for them.

You friend could be right about the wedge or what would be called conical on a rod. Joey Gold has that type of taper and people love the playability of his cues big time. Then again even the conical style has variances to accommodate for the bridge and the joint closure fit. Each cue maker does it different.

For me I am staying with what brought me to the dance because I am working 12 hours a day to try to keep up. My sales are only based on people who played with my cues and like the firm feed back.

If I just continue to work on that niche of the cue market, I think I will not have to rob my retirement account.:help:

If you are liking the shaft you have now don't change and if you want to get a new cue go with the same but make sure you have him give you the pick of the litter for shaft density.

Thanks,

Rick G
 
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