Shaft tapers

[Koop]

Could some of you explain to me the different taper lengths and what they mean from a hit standpoint.
Basically, Meucci I guess being the whippiest and SW being the stiffest. This may not be true but I'm just looking for insight as to what is considered a good taper, understanding that it is personal preference.

Thank you,
Koop

 

[Ken_4fun]

All -

Without trying to be arguementative, I think it is taper more than any other thing that people are talking about when players are talking about hit. It is this more than tips, farrells, and joints. It does make for an interesting story.

My current cues in order of stiffness.

1.) Woodworth (titlist)
2.) Gina
3.) PFD
4.) Black
5.) Tad
6.) Gilbert (1)
7.) Gilbert J/B
8.) DP
9.) Palmer (60's vintage)
10.) Rambow (early 60's)

The Gina is probably the best playing cue I have ever had. The PFD, Black, and Tad have almost identical taper and all play very close. These cues all play tremendous, but my nod would still go to the Gina. But my point is these cues, (2-5) all play excellent and have very, very similair tapers.

The Woodworth taper makes it extremely stiff, almost to the point of being "over stiff". I find it plays about as good as the Gilberts, which are less stiff than the (2-5) group. The Dale Perry is even less stiff and I prefered the "hit" (IMO taper) of the Gilberts over the Perry.

The Palmer and Rambow, seem to have much thinner shafts. I am not sure if this is just because of use and age. The Palmer had shafts made by Phillippe and with those shafts it plays more in line with the Gilbert and Perry cues.

My ramblings,

Ken

 

[Koop]

Thanks for the reply Ken.

I guess what I am looking for is taper length.

I'm looking to have a cue built and I would like to be able to specify the taper length so that it does not get too fat too quick. What is a good length without going over board?

Sorry if my post didn't make much sense.

Koop

 

[sliprock]

I'm looking to have a cue built and I would like to be able to specify the taper length so that it does not get too fat too quick.
Koop

Don't be too disappointed if your future cuemaker declines on your shaft taper request. Some might do it for you but others won't. Most guys have experimented with different tapers, and once they find the taper that works best for them and has the hit they desire, They may be reluctant to change. I had a friend ask Richard Harris to change the taper on one of his cues. Richard declined and told my buddy to go buy a meucci. Good luck with your new cue.

 

[Koop]

Don't be too disappointed if your future cuemaker declines on your shaft taper request. Some might do it for you but others won't. Most guys have experimented with different tapers, and once they find the taper that works best for them and has the hit they desire, They may be reluctant to change. I had a friend ask Richard Harris to change the taper on one of his cues. Richard declined and told my buddy to go buy a meucci. Good luck with your new cue.

I hear you and thanks.
My only concern is about the shaft getting too fat too quick.
I'm wondering if most cuemakers have a couple of different tapers they use to vary it up a little.
Guess I'll just the maker and let him know my concerns.

Regards,
Koop

 

[ScottR]

I hear you and thanks.
My only concern is about the shaft getting too fat too quick.
I'm wondering if most cuemakers have a couple of different tapers they use to vary it up a little.
Guess I'll just the maker and let him know my concerns.

Regards,
Koop

Koop,
There is another thread about Mottey vs White and one post talks about Paul's 10-12" "straight" taper being soft/mushy. If you can measure accurately enough, I have found that so-called "professional" tapers (that supposedly are straight for the first xx inches) on a cue that has a stiff hit, actually have a tiny taper over those first few inches. It is so minute that your hand can't tell it, but it makes a difference in the apparent stiffness of the feel. This is especially possible with CNC controlled shaft cutting on machines with super-tight tolerances.

As JAM would say . . . . jmo fwiw.

EDIT: I should have said that I found this on SOME cues that have a stiff hit. I'm not suggesting that all cue makers achieve that feel in this way.

 

[Koop]

Koop,
There is another thread about Mottey vs White and one post talks about Paul's 10-12" "straight" taper being soft/mushy. If you can measure accurately enough, I have found that so-called "professional" tapers (that supposedly are straight for the first xx inches) on a cue that has a stiff hit, actually have a tiny taper over those first few inches. It is so minute that your hand can't tell it, but it makes a difference in the apparent stiffness of the feel. This is especially possible with CNC controlled shaft cutting on machines with super-tight tolerances.

As JAM would say . . . . jmo fwiw.

Thanks Scott. I'll take a look.

Koop

 

[Sheldon]

Don't be too disappointed if your future cuemaker declines on your shaft taper request. Some might do it for you but others won't. Most guys have experimented with different tapers, and once they find the taper that works best for them and has the hit they desire, They may be reluctant to change. I had a friend ask Richard Harris to change the taper on one of his cues. Richard declined and told my buddy to go buy a meucci. Good luck with your new cue.

A truly "custom" cuemaker will cut you any taper you want. IMO.

 

[blud]

don't think so

A truly "custom" cuemaker will cut you any taper you want. IMO.

IMO, your not correct.
In my opinion, A real "custom" cuemaker will not cut any taper.

INTEGRITY!

I have refused several times to build cues and shafts that will effect the "INTEGRITY" of my cues. I know best as to how they play. I designed them to play great. When you start changing the shaft tapers, joints sizes, butt sizes,[change to much] it "WILL" affect the playability of the cue

My record speaks for it's self. 17 major players [ buddy hall, wade crane, jim matya, danny diliberto, grady mathews, buddy dennis, c j wiley, and many more], for 12 plus years, playing with my cues. I paid no one. Don't believe in PAYING someone to speak well of my cues. Most will say anything for the cash.

No, I will not just make something that someone wants, that will affect the quality of MY cues.
blud

 

[zeeder]

Could some of you explain to me the different taper lengths and what they mean from a hit standpoint.
Basically, Meucci I guess being the whippiest and SW being the stiffest. This may not be true but I'm just looking for insight as to what is considered a good taper, understanding that it is personal preference.

Thank you,
Koop

As always, I have to state up front that I am not very sensitive when it comes to the hit of a cue. When I order a cue from a cuemaker I like to let them make the cue how they feel will be best. If you want a specific taper or type of hit I think you should try various cues and get a cue from a maker that makes the type you like.

 

[Sheldon]

IMO, your not correct.
In my opinion, A real "custom" cuemaker will not cut any taper.

INTEGRITY!

I have refused several times to build cues and shafts that will effect the "INTEGRITY" of my cues. I know best as to how they play. I designed them to play great. When you start changing the shaft tapers, joints sizes, butt sizes,[change to much] it "WILL" affect the playability of the cue

Hit being subjective, what one person feels is a good taper might not be what someone else does. If someone is inflexible in what they will produce, they are not really custom in the true sense of the word.
Most cuemakers I know that won't do different tapers, either don't have the ability (or technology), or don't want to take the extra time to re-configure or re-program tapers. Some even mass-produce their shafts, and put the same trim on all of them. That way when they make a new cue, they can just grab a shaft out of the barrel and off it goes. This simplifies the process greatly, and is a nice way to save time.
I just feel that this places 'custom' cuemakers closer to production cues, which I prefer to stay as far away from as possible.

 

[Koop]

Thank you for the replies everyone.
In terms of taper lengths (i.e. 14", 15", etc...) can you tell me the advantages and disadvantages? What do you prefer and why?

I think my initial question did not come out as intended and I apologize.

Thank you,
Koop

 

[Ken_4fun]

I still think that your best to try before you by

I regards to what Blud and the others say, I suggest you try before you buy. I find that most cuemakers, while they differ from each other some, they seem to vary little from their own.

I hope that is clear. But most Tads seem to play the same. I suspect that with Blud's attitude of not changing tapers, his cues will play the same (for the most part) between his cues.

So I guess I am suggesting rather than selecting the taper you want and finding a cuemaker to build it. Find a cue that plays like you like, and have him build you a cue.

JMHO

Ken

 

[blud]

custom cues

Hit being subjective, what one person feels is a good taper might not be what someone else does. If someone is inflexible in what they will produce, they are not really custom in the true sense of the word.
Most cuemakers I know that won't do different tapers, either don't have the ability (or technology), or don't want to take the extra time to re-configure or re-program tapers. Some even mass-produce their shafts, and put the same trim on all of them. That way when they make a new cue, they can just grab a shaft out of the barrel and off it goes. This simplifies the process greatly, and is a nice way to save time.
I just feel that this places 'custom' cuemakers closer to production cues, which I prefer to stay as far away from as possible.

Sheldon, How long have you been building cues? Own your own, not using someones elses equipment in there shop.Your own shop.

Where town do you live in. I travel a bit from time to time, and would like to meet you and visit your shop, if possible?

BTW, I don't just grab a shaft out of a barrel, and I don't build production cues.

I have a 4-headed CNC saw/lathe that turn cuts 4 at a time. This allows me to spend less time on turn-cutting shafts and butts. It is in no way, production, my friend. It's good business smarts.

While most guys are turn-cutting 1 shaft or butt, I turn-cut 4. When a customer calls for a shaft as small as 12.60mm, [ don't go below1260 mm or over 13mm ], I turn that shaft by it's self.


I build most of my shops machinery, because what's avaliable just won't work for the most part.

My equipment makes it easy on me to build my cues. I normally build about 80 cues a year. For the last 16 month's, I took off to help my wife, Janice. My son Donald is helping me now. Doing a great job.
We now have 43 cues on order, and hope to total about 60 this year. No more than that.

With my equipment, if we wanted to, we could turn out about 200 cues per year. Don't want to go there. Were building fewer cues, and having a good time doing it. No rushing involved.

I just have lots of machines for training, and teaching cuemaking. Or,when guys come to buy.

By having this type machinery, it allows me to spend more time putting together the cues with out being rushed. This is important.

Just like weight bolts. In my opinion, a guys who uses weight bolts, is not building a true custom cue. I use the woods to weight and balance my custom cues. For those who use the weight bolts, when they add or subtract weight and they change how the cue plays. Poor design in my opinion for a so called CUSTOM CUEMAKER.
Production shops do use them, and rightfully so. True Custom Cuemakers for the most part, do not.....
Whatever works for you. If it aint broke...........

blud

 

[jazznpool]

God bless anyone that can make a ball with a 14" or 15" "pro" (cylindrical)taper. I'd be completely helpless, especially on long shots, regardless of how dense the shaftwood was or how thick the joint was!

I've come to appreciate tapers that grow very gradually the first 10-12 inches and increase at a greater rate after that. I also like shafts where the taper does not begin in a real drastic way at the joint end. Shaft tapers are a compromise of many elements. I can always have a too stiff shaft retapered so it is a bit less stiff. If a shaft is too wild for your taste to begin with, you're screwed.

Martin

Thank you for the replies everyone.
In terms of taper lengths (i.e. 14", 15", etc...) can you tell me the advantages and disadvantages? What do you prefer and why?

I think my initial question did not come out as intended and I apologize.

Thank you,
Koop

 

[blud]

your right

I regards to what Blud and the others say, I suggest you try before you buy. I find that most cuemakers, while they differ from each other some, they seem to vary little from their own.

I hope that is clear. But most Tads seem to play the same. I suspect that with Blud's attitude of not changing tapers, his cues will play the same (for the most part) between his cues.

So I guess I am suggesting rather than selecting the taper you want and finding a cuemaker to build it. Find a cue that plays like you like, and have him build you a cue.

JMHO

Ken

Right on Ken.
I do change tapers a wee bit..a little longer, but not whippy.
I do my best to build them all, to hit close to the same.

IT AINT BROKE............
blud

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon, How long have you been building cues? Own your own, not using someones elses equipment in there shop.Your own shop.

Where town do you live in. I travel a bit from time to time, and would like to meet you and visit your shop, if possible?

BTW, I don't just grab a shaft out of a barrel, and I don't build production cues.

I have a 4-headed CNC saw/lathe that turn cuts 4 at a time. This allows me to spend less time on turn-cutting shafts and butts. It is in no way, production, my friend. It's good business smarts.

While most guys are turn-cutting 1 shaft or butt, I turn-cut 4. When a customer calls for a shaft as small as 12.60mm, [ don't go below1260 mm or over 13mm ], I turn that shaft by it's self.


I build most of my shops machinery, because what's avaliable just won't work for the most part.

My equipment makes it easy on me to build my cues. I normally build about 80 cues a year. For the last 16 month's, I took off to help my wife, Janice. My son Donald is helping me now. Doing a great job.
We now have 43 cues on order, and hope to total about 60 this year. No more than that.

With my equipment, if we wanted to, we could turn out about 200 cues per year. Don't want to go there. Were building fewer cues, and having a good time doing it. No rushing involved.

I just have lots of machines for training, and teaching cuemaking. Or,when guys come to buy.

By having this type machinery, it allows me to spend more time putting together the cues with out being rushed. This is important.

Just like weight bolts. In my opinion, a guys who uses weight bolts, is not building a true custom cue. I use the woods to weight and balance my custom cues. For those who use the weight bolts, when they add or subtract weight and they change how the cue plays. Poor design in my opinion for a so called CUSTOM CUEMAKER.
Production shops do use them, and rightfully so. True Custom Cuemakers for the most part, do not.....
Whatever works for you. If it aint broke...........

blud

Wow, All I did was offer an opinion, I didn't expect to share my life story...
I have built cues since '99 when I bought out a guy you set up. I am self-taught, and have never worked in anyone else's shop. I still have the lathe you guys set up, but I sold the cnc and bought a new one a few years ago. I'm in Oregon, Near Eugene.

 

[Sheldon]

Thank you for the replies everyone.
In terms of taper lengths (i.e. 14", 15", etc...) can you tell me the advantages and disadvantages? What do you prefer and why?

This is my favorite taper:
G00 X0. Y-.5
G01 Y0.
X6.5 Y-.0035
X12.5 Y-.021
X16.5 Y-.038
X20.5 Y-.069
X24.5 Y-.113
X30.5 Y-.178

The tip is 12.75mm the joint is .850

The X is along the length, Y is the distance from the edge of the tip. (12.75mm)

As you can see, the shaft grows very gradually from the start, increasing at a faster rate as it gets to the joint. This makes the shaft a bit more 'lively' than cutting a constant diameter for a certain length, and then tapering back to the joint from there. Hit is extremely subjective, and most people can adjust to different equipment, so unless you can trust someone to make you something you think you will like, Hit with some varying tapers if you can, so that you can make a better decision.

 

[Koop]

This is my favorite taper:
G00 X0. Y-.5
G01 Y0.
X6.5 Y-.0035
X12.5 Y-.021
X16.5 Y-.038
X20.5 Y-.069
X24.5 Y-.113
X30.5 Y-.178

The tip is 12.75mm the joint is .850

The X is along the length, Y is the distance from the edge of the tip. (12.75mm)

As you can see, the shaft grows very gradually from the start, increasing at a faster rate as it gets to the joint. This makes the shaft a bit more 'lively' than cutting a constant diameter for a certain length, and then tapering back to the joint from there. Hit is extremely subjective, and most people can adjust to different equipment, so unless you can trust someone to make you something you think you will like, Hit with some varying tapers if you can, so that you can make a better decision.

Thank you very much Sheldon.

 

[brianna187]

(THIS PROGRAM WILL RUN 1 TIME)

G00 Z1.0
G00 Y-.1
G00 X30.125
G00 Z0
G01 Y.1175 F30.0
G01 X29 .1175(515)
G01 X 28 .1175
G01 X27.0 Y.115.5 F20.0
G01 X25.0 Y.115.5
G01 X24.0 Y.112.5
G01 X23.0 Y.111
G01 X22.0 Y.111
G01 X20.0 Y.112
G01 X19.0 Y.112
G01 X18.0 Y.108
G01 X17.0 Y.105
G01 X16.0 Y.100
G01 X15.0 Y.094
G01 X14.0 Y.087.5
G01 X13.0 Y.081.5
G01 X12.0 Y.079.5
G01 X11.0 Y.074.5
G01 X10.0 Y.064
G01 X9.0 Y.051.5
G01 X8.0 Y.038
G01 X7.0 Y.025.5
G01 X6.0 Y.004.5
G01 X5.0 Y-.002
G01 X4.0 Y-.015.5
G01 X3.0 Y-.026
G01 X2.0 Y-.034
G01 X1.0 Y-.038.5
G01 X-.05 Y-.051
G01 Y-.1 F30.0
G00 X30.125
G00 Z1.0
M30

this is my new program