Shane and Straight pool?

M

Makey98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just curious why Shane doesn't play any straight pool. At least I haven't seen any videos of him. Obviously, straight is not the money game that 1p and 10 ball are and he is clearly a big money player and probably the best in the world right now. However, he clearly has the skillset to run big numbers. He is one of the best 1p players in the world, which requires more strategy than straight and just as much cue control.

Are there any videos of him playing straight and I missed or does anyone know why he doesn't play it?

Tar 30 - Shane vs Alex - straight pool race to 500?
am I just dreaming??!!
 
Makey98 said:
Just curious why Shane doesn't play any straight pool. At least I haven't seen any videos of him. Obviously, straight is not the money game that 1p and 10 ball are and he is clearly a big money player and probably the best in the world right now. However, he clearly has the skillset to run big numbers. He is one of the best 1p players in the world, which requires more strategy than straight and just as much cue control.

Are there any videos of him playing straight and I missed or does anyone know why he doesn't play it?

Tar 30 - Shane vs Alex - straight pool race to 500?
am I just dreaming??!!
Click to expand...

This is one of the biggest misconceptions 9-ballers have about "mad 9-ball skillz" -- that it somehow automatically translates into "big run straight pool skillz".

Nothing could be further from the truth. In order to be a good straight pool player, you have to play and practice straight pool, as well as being willing to learn from the better straight pool players. 9-ballers seem to think that if Shane steps up to the table for a straight pool game, that big runs are just going to pour and pour out of the guy. The only 9-ballers that are very successful at straight pool, are those that practice it -- e.g. Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen. Darren Appleton is something of an enigma, in that although he doesn't practice straight pool, his background is English Blackball (i.e. 8-ball, except the stripes/solids are reds and yellows respectively). That is a *pattern* game, just like straight pool, so Darren's able to draw upon his patterns experience at that game in straight pool. Compare that to 9-ball, which is a "color by numbers" game -- the pattern is already determined for you by the numbers on the balls, and you are slave to it. This is especially evident watching a 9-baller play straight pool on the "occasion" he/she gets to -- proper patterns are virtually non-existent. You'll watch as the 9-baller "shoots shots," looking at "what's next," and resorting to herculean cue ball heroics again and again, when the pattern could've been done a heck of a lot easier and without chance.

To be honest, I watched about 50 minutes of the video that Apocalypse2012 shared, and I switched to something else. Watching a pattern attacked by having the cue ball race around the table (3 rails in some cases, to recover from a poorly-played pattern -- and ends up with a very poor break-ball, as Shane arrives at starting at the 47:00 mark) just doesn't do it for me. I just shook my head -- he needs to play and study the game *much* more to recognize the proper patterns.

I'd rather watch Allen (Hopkins), or Thorsten, or Johnny, or Mika, or Oliver (Ortmann), or John Schmidt, or any of a number of good players play the game.

Now, would I like to Shane play straight pool more? A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y. He's got the shot-making skills, no doubt. But he really, really needs to work on his patterns. The video that Apocalypse2012 shared demonstrates this in the raw.

-Sean
 
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I agree with the above response...and it should also solidify how great of an all around player Earl is. In Earl's match against Archer he looked pretty sporty in the staight pool portion. Nick Varner had high praise for not only Earl"s ball pocketing skills....but for his patterns also.
 
krelldog said:
I agree with the above response...and it should also solidify how great of an all around player Earl is. In Earl's match against Archer he looked pretty sporty in the staight pool portion. Nick Varner had high praise for not only Earl"s ball pocketing skills....but for his patterns also.
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In Earl's game with Ervolino you could see the difference, Earl the shot-maker missing shots that he would never miss playing 9 ball, Johnny playing Straight Pool the way it's supposed to be played. Earl struggling to stay in line and not let the cue ball loose.
 
Pushout said:
Check out this game between Earl and Johnny Ervolino. Master Straight Pool against young buck 9 ball player.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=249383

In the Straight Pool forum, naturally. Thanks, Sean!
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A lot of folks don't know that Earl actually practiced straight pool for quite a period, and even scored his high run of 408 when he was in full swing of straight pool practice. In this match, Earl was playing a near-60 year old Johnny Ervolino; it was evident to everyone that Johnny just ran out of gas in the later stages of the match, even though he hit Earl with a big run straight out of the gate. (Johnny had heart problems, which would ultimately claim his life ten years later.)

Earl's straight pool patterns, even in this video, are better than the patterns demonstrated by Shane in the video shared in post #2. Again, it's practice and study which makes a good straight pool player; not sheer shot-making skills.

-Sean
 
Well now, I'm definitely a 14.1 purist, but anyone who doesn't think Van Boening couldn't be one of the world's greatest straight poolers if he took, lessons from a Varner, Rempe, Martin, Hopkins, Sigel, West or DiLiberto for a few months is, in my view, very mistaken.

Shane doesn't play much 14.1 because he focuses on the games from which he can best earn a living, and his formula is, quite obviously, working rather well.
 
sjm said:
Well now, I'm definitely a 14.1 purist, but anyone who doesn't think Van Boening couldn't be one of the world's greatest straight poolers if he took, lessons from a Varner, Rempe, Martin, Hopkins, Sigel, West or DiLiberto for a few months is, in my view, very mistaken.

Shane doesn't play much 14.1 because he focuses on the games from which he can best earn a living, and his formula is, quite obviously, working rather well.
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Stu:

I agree, and that was my point -- Shane has the potential, but he's not a lock at great straight pool unless he 1.) takes lessons from much more knowledgeable straight poolers, and 2.) practices the game more, as you eloquently state.

I agree he's got the skills. My point was to address the 9-ballers' belief that if Shane steps to the table, that big runs are just going to pour out of the guy "because in straight pool, you can shoot at any ball you want, not just the lowest-numbered ball on the table." (This was mentioned in another thread.)

I personally would love to see Shane play 14.1 after having been under the tutelage of some of the greats.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Stu:

I agree, and that was my point -- Shane has the potential, but he's not a lock at great straight pool unless he 1.) takes lessons from much more knowledgeable straight poolers, and 2.) practices the game more, as you eloquently state.

I agree he's got the skills. My point was to address the 9-ballers' belief that if Shane steps to the table, that big runs are just going to pour out of the guy "because in straight pool, you can shoot at any ball you want, not just the lowest-numbered ball on the table." (This was mentioned in another thread.)

I personally would love to see Shane play 14.1 after having been under the tutelage of some of the greats.

-Sean
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Gotcha, but take note of the fact that I suggested it would take just a few months with the right tutelage. Many straight poolers reject the notion that, even with the right tutelage, the game can be learnt this quickly.

Shane has the pocketing skills, and I don't think we really need to be concerned about his touch or finesse given that he's the reigning Derby City One Pocket champion.

He'd be a killer at 14.1, if he chose to be.
 
sjm said:
Gotcha, but take note of the fact that I suggested it would take just a few months with the right tutelage. Many straight poolers reject the notion that, even with the right tutelage, the game can be learnt this quickly.

Shane has the pocketing skills, and I don't think we really need to be concerned about his touch or finesse given that he's the reigning Derby City One Pocket champion.

He'd be a killer at 14.1, if he chose to be.
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Agreed. This was my point in the original post. He has the touch obviously, so it would be just practice time and pattern play/ study for a Short period of time. 6mo- year. I was just trying to see if anyone knew if he played straight at all.

Alex is obviously a top level straight pool player and a big TAR match with Shane vs Alex in straight pool scheduled out a year or so would be fun. Would be good action all over the plae because the straight pool guys would say, "no way can Shane learn this game" so fast and the Shane supporters would never bet against him.
 
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Ok. I feel like an idiot here, but in the ustream link (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1939504) above where Shane plays Stevie Moore, why does shane turn the table over at 10:40? It seems like a legal shot? Maybe he hits the rack first before the break ball, but he still makes the shot. I've never played 14.1 in competition, so I'm a total newbie.
 
I asked Shane if he played straight pool the last time I saw him. He said, "It's hard". Of course he had a smile on his face when he said it. I think at this time he doesn't want to put in the time to learn it. I hope he does in the future.
 
I like 14.1. The game humbles me every time I play it.

BUT - I don't think it is a very good game for world-class pool players. It is too easy for them.

I agree with one of the previous posters that it really only takes a few months for these great players to have enough of an understanding of the patterns, the key balls, the break balls, etc, to play great straight pool. The problem is - straight pool purists always laugh at the "nine-ballers" when they are playing the game -- even while they are having no trouble running balls. I'll agree that these guys don't typically play the "correct" pattterns but who cares??? So what if they have to swing the cue ball around 3 rails to get back in line 2 or 3 times a rack? I have always sensed a bit of jealousy when it comes to "nine-ballers" playing straight pool. It didn't take Archer years of practice to get to the point where he was running 100's. I believe after just a few months he ran 150 and out in a tournament. The same thing can be said for Efren and others.

For us amateurs it may take a lifetime to figure out the game of 14.1 because we have to overcome our other deficiencies (mainly our potting ability). We have to play perfect to pull off a high run - they don't. That's just the way it is.

Now let me have it.
 
I think i kinda go the opposite direction here. Execution is worth so much in pool. And when it comes to knowledge (when combined with world class execution), a little goes a LONG way. My best example was watching schmidt come up. He could not move with a monkey playing one hole, but he was beating people, very knowledgeable people. It doesn't matter how much you know, if you make one mistake, it's over.... i've said this before.... but a guy who averages 6 balls in one hole when he gets a shot has to move twice as good as a guy who averages 3.... that is just insurmountable with even a tad of knowledge.
 
BasementDweller said:
I like 14.1. The game humbles me every time I play it.

BUT - I don't think it is a very good game for world-class pool players. It is too easy for them.

I agree with one of the previous posters that it really only takes a few months for these great players to have enough of an understanding of the patterns, the key balls, the break balls, etc, to play great straight pool. The problem is - straight pool purists always laugh at the "nine-ballers" when they are playing the game -- even while they are having no trouble running balls. I'll agree that these guys don't typically play the "correct" pattterns but who cares??? So what if they have to swing the cue ball around 3 rails to get back in line 2 or 3 times a rack? I have always sensed a bit of jealousy when it comes to "nine-ballers" playing straight pool. It didn't take Archer years of practice to get to the point where he was running 100's. I believe after just a few months he ran 150 and out in a tournament. The same thing can be said for Efren and others.

For us amateurs it may take a lifetime to figure out the game of 14.1 because we have to overcome our other deficiencies (mainly our potting ability). We have to play perfect to pull off a high run - they don't. That's just the way it is.

Now let me have it.
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You said a mouthful, it certainly is a very humbling game. As for it being too easy for world class players I have to disagree.

If you think in terms of the way we play straight pool, yes it sure is too easy for them to string enough racks together to make us look pathetic, but, in looking at the game as an entirely different kind of pressure, constant long periods of concentration, and the most severe penalties in all of pool for missing even one shot, I think this is exactly the kind of game that can test world class player vs world class player.

There's no second chance, there's no "next rack" in a race to 11, or I'll get him next game. This is pure focus, pure precision, vein popping constant concentration, on each and every shot, each and every safety, or it may be the bleachers for you for the rest of the entire match. One momentary lapse in focus and you may be done for. IMO it doesn't get more intense than that, and to play well at that level is more trying than any other game.
 
3andstop said:
You said a mouthful, it certainly is a very humbling game. As for it being too easy for world class players I have to disagree.

If you think in terms of the way we play straight pool, yes it sure is too easy for them to string enough racks together to make us look pathetic, but, in looking at the game as an entirely different kind of pressure, constant long periods of concentration, and the most severe penalties in all of pool for missing even one shot, I think this is exactly the kind of game that can test world class player vs world class player.

There's no second chance, there's no "next rack" in a race to 11, or I'll get him next game. This is pure focus, pure precision, vein popping constant concentration, on each and every shot, each and every safety, or it may be the bleachers for you for the rest of the entire match. One momentary lapse in focus and you may be done for. IMO it doesn't get more intense than that, and to play well at that level is more trying than any other game.
Click to expand...

Couldn't of said it better myself !!!!

Well said
Steve
 
BasementDweller said:
I like 14.1. The game humbles me every time I play it.

BUT - I don't think it is a very good game for world-class pool players. It is too easy for them.

I agree with one of the previous posters that it really only takes a few months for these great players to have enough of an understanding of the patterns, the key balls, the break balls, etc, to play great straight pool. The problem is - straight pool purists always laugh at the "nine-ballers" when they are playing the game -- even while they are having no trouble running balls. I'll agree that these guys don't typically play the "correct" pattterns but who cares??? So what if they have to swing the cue ball around 3 rails to get back in line 2 or 3 times a rack? I have always sensed a bit of jealousy when it comes to "nine-ballers" playing straight pool. It didn't take Archer years of practice to get to the point where he was running 100's. I believe after just a few months he ran 150 and out in a tournament. The same thing can be said for Efren and others.

For us amateurs it may take a lifetime to figure out the game of 14.1 because we have to overcome our other deficiencies (mainly our potting ability). We have to play perfect to pull off a high run - they don't. That's just the way it is.

Now let me have it.
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BasementDweller:

Nice points, and well-stated, but there are a couple flaws in your argument:

1. "...that it really only takes a few months for these great players to have enough of an understanding of the patterns, the key balls, the break balls, etc, to play great straight pool."

Reply: Stu was speaking about one player in particular -- Shane. Shane is a true student of the cueing sports, and due to his focus and dedication, he definitely is the type of player that, given the proper tutelage (important!) and focused practice, can learn and play the game to a world-class level. Just because it applies to Shane, doesn't mean it applies to all good 9-ballers.

2. "The problem is - straight pool purists always laugh at the "nine-ballers" when they are playing the game -- even while they are having no trouble running balls."

Reply: First, not all straight pool purists "laugh" at the 9-ballers. Shake their heads, maybe, because they're picking apart the pattern the worst possible way, but no laughing. Second, the "even while they are having no trouble running balls" is flawed. Everyone likes to watch a raw shooter when he/she is "on" -- when those balls are flying in the pockets with the greatest of ease, and the shooter isn't even pausing/breaking a sweat. That's really fun to watch when someone is in such a zone. But when the 9-baller is running the balls, and IT'S VERY OBVIOUS he/she is having a lot of trouble -- shooting a shot, and then pondering to see "what's next -- do I have a shot?" -- all the while having that "white knuckle" appearance -- that's when the straight pool purist may shake his/her head.

3. "I'll agree that these guys don't typically play the "correct" pattterns but who cares??? So what if they have to swing the cue ball around 3 rails to get back in line 2 or 3 times a rack?"

Reply: Actually, if the player is indeed "getting back in line" each time, there really isn't a problem. But if the player is NOT getting back in line even with these cue ball heroics, that's when the critique of the pattern comes into play. At the 47:00 mark in the video of Shane playing Stevie Moore (the link that Apocalypse2012 shared earlier), it's a glaring example of Shane struggling. He went three rails and completely missed position on the break ball, and had no break ball at all. (He missed the subsequent break shot, in fact.)

4. "I have always sensed a bit of jealousy when it comes to "nine-ballers" playing straight pool."

Reply: :D That's funny! Actually, many of the great straight pool players also have a bang-up 9-ball game as well. Oh, say, Thorsten, and Oliver (Ortmann) are good examples. Many of the other straight pool players just CHOOSE not to play 9-ball, because they already play the game that they enjoy the most -- straight pool.

5. "It didn't take Archer years of practice to get to the point where he was running 100's. I believe after just a few months he ran 150 and out in a tournament."

Reply: Actually, it did take Johnny a while to really get in the flow of playing 14.1. Johnny is well-known to practice straight pool in his spare time. Don't forget, one of his bestest friends was Nick Varner, a straight pool legend himself. I recall a very old interview where Johnny credits Nick for much of his straight pool development. It wasn't a case of "just a few months" before he ran 150 and out in a tournament (I'm presuming you're talking about the 1995 Maine Event?). Johnny had been playing the game and under the tutelage of Nick for at least a year before entering that tournament.

6. <Not mentioned> Long-term focus that doesn't "reset" after pocketing 9 balls.

Reply: 3andstop mentioned it best -- you have to have complete focus on pocketing 150 balls. Not 9 balls, and then "reset" (e.g. "phew" -- go get a drink of water, wipe your forehead, and wait for the racker to finish racking the balls). Make one mistake -- just one -- and you may be sitting out for the entire match. Try and sweat *that level* of concentration!

While a lot can be said for ball-potting ability, a lot more can be said for proper patterns to leverage those ball-potting abilities. If you're a weak potter, patterns (and safeties!) are of the utmost importance to you. If you're a great ball pocketer, then you may be able to relax somewhat on your patterns. But those last three balls are still critical -- you need the proper pattern to get good position on the break ball. If you have to swing 3 rails to get position on the break ball -- as Shane did -- you're making yourself vulnerable to bad rolls, overrun/underrun position, etc. and have NO break ball at all -- an unceremonious run-ender.

Again, straight pool is not the type of game that you can just throw balls on the table and expect to learn it yourself "in a short period of time." This is not like 9-ball or other short-rack rotation type games. The depth of knowledge that goes into seeing the patterns to best "get into" the next rack are key to this game. That's why it's said that 14.1 gets more difficult as you remove balls off of the table (in stark contract to 9-ball which gets easier as you remove balls off of the table).

-Sean
 
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