Shop Talk.

[JB Cases]

Just glue to secure the leather to the fiber board.

Are there any instances where you use other methods to attach the leather to the board?

Is there any situation where you might sew the leather and have to go thru both leather and fiber board? If so, then I take it that other than being durable, the Board is also flexible enuff to withstand a large sewing machine needle to pierce without splitting or shattering.

On thicker pieces of leather that are hand stitched, what type of awl do you use to make the holes. Or do you use different size hole punches.

This board is made to be sewn. We always sew right through it. Typically you would not just sew it because the purpose is to provide a stiffener for the leather so just sewing it doesn't really help much. If you look at my parts you will see that we sew right through it to attach parts. We pretty much glue and sew and rivet everything that can be glued/sewn/riveted. We go into overkill putting parts together because it's a pain in the ass having to repair them later when they are halfway around the world.

Cue cases are a bit special in leatherworking because they are hard to assemble and harder to repair. That's one big reason I try to insure that all of our parts are done so that there is little chance of them failing.

We use needles and drill our holes. We rarely use sewing awls as it's too slow. We chuck up a needle and use it to make the holes. This also keeps the holes smaller so that the thread can make a tighter bond to the leather.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

I see. So just a large needle, the holes are pre marked and move the needle on the machine by hand up and down for each hole.

You said, Drill. If a person was wanting to get into leather work then a small hobby drill
and small bit would do the trick.

 

[RiverCity]

Just glue to secure the leather to the fiber board.

Are there any instances where you use other methods to attach the leather to the board?

Is there any situation where you might sew the leather and have to go thru both leather and fiber board? If so, then I take it that other than being durable, the Board is also flexible enuff to withstand a large sewing machine needle to pierce without splitting or shattering.

On thicker pieces of leather that are hand stitched, what type of awl do you use to make the holes. Or do you use different size hole punches.

Hand stitching while traditional leathercraft, and IMO a nice touch, isnt needed on something like a cue case. If you want to stitch the back panel, youre almost limited to hand stitching unless you want to shell out major money for an 'up the arm' machine. Some saddle makers still use it for tradition, and the saddle stitch has some benefits over a lock stitch if abrasion is a concern, such as a saddle.
But to answer your question, these are some of the basic tools of hand stitching leather...

From L-R
Stitching groover, this tool cuts a shallow channel that the thread rides in at or below the surface for protection against abrasion. And again, we are going back to saddle maker days where this kind of measure needed to be taken. In reality, there is a school of thought a lot of leatherworkers share, myself included, that this can weaken the leather at the stitch line. Combined with perforating the leather for the stitches, it creates a point of possible failure. Several leatherworkers who choose to 'embed' the thread below the surface prefer to use a tool that more or less dents the surface creating a groove as opposed to cutting a groove.

Next up is the spacing wheel, or overstitch wheel. There are several different threads per inch/wheels that are available, because different purposes require different things. Typically youll see 6-7-8 threads per inch. 7 is pretty much an industry standard for most stuff. On something smaller like a wallet, 8 looks better. But the higher the stitches per inch, the weaker you make the leather, and the likelier the leather will rip out at some point. Less stitches per inch, might look pretty, but you lose some of the strength you gain for appearance.

Lastly is the awl. Awls are diamond shaped, and used at a 45 degree angle to create the hole. This give the thread a pocket to sit in if you will. If done wrong, again, you create a weak point by putting the thin edge of the cuts facing each other. Makes tear out more likely.



Now with all of that said..... Machine stitching (lock stitch) is the best way to sew overall. It is plenty durable as it is. And while it lacks the benefit of the saddle stitch, its made up for in speed, and versatility. With leatherworkers nothing just gets sewn, it gets glued, then sewn. The stitching gives longevity to the edge of the seam, and looks. But the glue is doing the bulk of the work. :wink:
Chuck

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Cool. Thanks for the detailed explanation Chuck. I had never planned on making a case but maybe at some point, smaller projects.

I once hand stitched a pair of moccasins. Even using a thimble, my fingers ached like a SOB after a short session of sewing.

Too bad that we lost our Tandy leather shop some time ago in our small city.

I have seen some Traditional Ladies Beaded leather dresses at Pow Wows. It takes countless hrs to bead a dress and I have no idea how these ladies fingers must ache after a session.

These Dresses start at approx 5 K and go up from there.

I also see what you mean re the diamond shaped awl being punched at a 45 degree angle across the cut or groove line.

We had a saddle maker in Northern Saskatchewan at one time. He got out of the business when he realized that he was better at practicing different healing modalities such as Reiki etc.

Not to get away on the case making in this thread, sorry, its just that leather work in general is interesting. And that case making is a higher art form of leather craft.

I imagine that in making a saddle, the actual seat has to be set on a wooden mold of some sort and then painstakingly formed over a period of time.

Regardless of whether hand stitching or machine stitching in general is stronger, I have always thought that a bit of fancy hand stitching adds a classy timeless touch to a cue case or anything.

I have a rather antique sewing machine. Looks just the same as the machine previous that you used a foot treadle. Now, I know that it wouldn't be strong enuff to do heavy leather but
with a motor upgrade might it work for some leather. And if it would accept a heavy leather needle, it might be used for punching holes.

We do have an older Italian gentleman that has done shoe repair all his life. I imagine that in a couple of years, should he retire, if someone doesn't buy his business out right, he may have a machine or 2 for sale.

 

[JB Cases]

I see. So just a large needle, the holes are pre marked and move the needle on the machine by hand up and down for each hole.

You said, Drill. If a person was wanting to get into leather work then a small hobby drill
and small bit would do the trick.

We use a needle to "drill" the holes mostly. Sometimes we will use a tiny bit to drill the holes because the needle won't make a large enough hole. Leather workers are split on whether it's better to punch holes using an awl or whether drilling is better.

We have done both and find no real difference in the quality of the bond.

Sometimes we will use the sewing machine with no thread to make the holes which will then later be hand sewn. This is to insure the same stitch length and appearance on both sides of the piece and to avoid having to mark all the holes.

When we do a custom piece like this

We have to carefully measure out the stitch holes to insure that they are all evenly spaced to fit the piece. We don't always get this right but we are better now with a lot of practice.

Notice also that in this particular piece the border is laced. The customer wanted it that way and so we had to also space the holes for the lacing just right to deal with the nails.

Small details that can make a big difference when planning out a piece.

I would say for sure a small drill and a dremel tool are essentials in a leather goods shop.

 

[JB Cases]

Thank you Chuck that was an excellent quick tutorial on sewing. Just one minor disagreement. Depending on how you are constructing the case some areas will require hand stitching. Our Puzzle Latches for example cannot be sewn any other way. We do a lot of hand stitching simply because that is the best way to finish that area of the case. If we could do with a machine stitch then we certainly would.

 

[JB Cases]

Reinforcing the stress points.

Here is a quick video on one method we use to reinforce the stress points.

http://youtu.be/AkVENYZp7L8

 

[RiverCity]

Thank you Chuck that was an excellent quick tutorial on sewing. Just one minor disagreement. Depending on how you are constructing the case some areas will require hand stitching. Our Puzzle Latches for example cannot be sewn any other way. We do a lot of hand stitching simply because that is the best way to finish that area of the case. If we could do with a machine stitch then we certainly would.

You dont have to disagree with anything. If its the only way something can be stitched its the only way. My thing is that some people think hand sewn is the "best" way to sew something, and its simply just not.
People have asked me to hand sew cases, and when I quote what I would charge, theyre fine with the machine stitch. :thumbup:
Chuck

 

[JB Cases]

You dont have to disagree with anything. If its the only way something can be stitched its the only way. My thing is that some people think hand sewn is the "best" way to sew something, and its simply just not.
People have asked me to hand sew cases, and when I quote what I would charge, theyre fine with the machine stitch. :thumbup:
Chuck

Of course you're right. I also think back to all the gear that is machine stitched which people depend on in life-threatening situations, such as military gear.

I also think that hand-stitching isn't always done well. IF a person has not stitched with the proper tension then you have created a spot that wants to work loose.

This is a good example. This strap is loosely sewn to the lid. Over time it can only get worse in my opinion. Were it done properly then it would form a tight bond that is unlikely to loosen much if at all over time.

However the maker can say it's "hand-stitched" and the assumption is that this means it's well stitched.

I have the same opinion about tooling. People use the word hand-tooled as if to say well tooled. Anyone can scratch leather and call it hand tooled. Well tooled items take a lot of time and care.

We can go into some of the distinctions so that people can get a better grip on what is well tooled and what is fluff.

 

[JB Cases]

Fiber Board Backing. Again.

So here is an image of one of our cases that has been disassembled by a competitor.

It is a good example of using modern material to supplement the leather.

The case in the center is a similar case as the one which is disassembled above.

It is made of brown nappa leather and a crocodile print. Nappa is wonderful soft leather used in upholstery, handbags and clothing mainly. Prints are generally top grain or splits which have been given a surface treatment to look like exotic leathers. They are used extensively through the world to give the appearance of wild animals or even just funky cool patterns.

In order to use these leathers on a pool cue case sometimes they have to be backed so that the material won't be stressed out and able to handle the stresses with the use of a cue case.

We take a lot of pride in doing whatever it takes to use the leathers we find interesting and which our clients like. This means we will always back any leather that needs it with space age materials developed by billion dollar companies for hundred billion dollar industries.

Now looking at this picture again I want to point out several major points as you look at the case in the center above and the backside of it's twin.

1. The magnetic puzzle latch you see at the top is composed of several magnets which surround the circle. That circle is riveted through the body and then sewn through a piece of plastic that is laid on top of the fiber board. This puts two layers of stiffness between the nappa leather covering and the backside of the case. This is done so that the male latch part on the body can easily hold the weight of the case for decades to come.

2. The pockets on this particular case are sewn INSIDE the body. In order to do that we sew a bottom piece of leather to the pocket and thus create two layers UNDER the main body piece for extra strength and durability. You can see this by looking closely at the pocket on the back.

3. The D-ring holders are riveted thourgh the fiber board adding to the strength and durability of that part. This insures that they are as strong as using thicker veg tan and possibly stronger since the fiber board isn't subject to deterioration and rot like the leather is.

4. The handle strap is riveted though the leather, through the fiberboard and then through a piece of sheet metal for extra strength. BUT even that isn't good enough for us we then sew the leather down through the fiberboard.

So in the end this is leather PLUS extra strength. The customer gets a gorgeaus case with a funky design because we are always looking for ways to build these cases that go well beyond surface decoration.

The maker who took this case apart can learn a lot about building a better case if he chooses to apply what he sees.

High end cue case making is not about making pretty cases for the immediate WOW factor. it's about building heirloom quality leather goods that will last a lifetime.

Of course we also build the same level of quality and durability into the low priced cases we make as well. All of our Rugged nylon cases are just as durable because we employ whatever methods we need to in order to achieve the same goal, cases that don't fall apart.

Bonus: Here is a quick video I shot to illustrate why we back some leathers and not others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CULfisk4Uo4

 

[JB Cases]

English Bridle Leather

Continuing our topic on leather types we come to English Bridle Leather.

A case maker, showing off his new highly tooled case and the backside of the leather, said "This is full leather... English bridal veg tan" (spelling incorrect, it is bridle as in horse gear)

Most leather workers can be forgiven for not knowing all their leathers because there are so many varieties.

However anyone who worked as a salesman for a tannery should know that English Bridle Leather is not at all suitable for tooling.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=34467

The reason is because English Bridle Leather is stuffed with oils and tallow making it much stronger and weather and sweat resistant. It is used almost exclusively for horse gear, called tack. Some bag makers will use it and the resulting bags will be HEAVY and durable. They are NEVER carved, only sometimes embossed with a very heavy press.

The back of the English Bridle is very smooth from the high oil and tallow content. It is never light and colorless as in the above images.

This leather is probably the most expensive veg tanned leather available because of all the extra treatment. The leather shown above is NOT bridle leather of any kind. It is vegetable tanned tooling leather. Normal stuff available everywhere, nothing special.

So any time you come across anyone saying that they use some type of leather and call it the best - google it. Read it for yourself and decide if that maker is not mistaken in their description.

The more you know the wiser choice you can make.

http://www.hermannoakleather.com/products-and-pricing/english-bridle
http://www.hermannoakleather.com/products-and-pricing/tooling-and-carving-20110204130556 (Hermann Oak is consider to be the best for tooling from the leather worker's perspective, Justis uses this leather) We don't because we can't really get it here. It's basically a difference in how easy the leather is to work.

English Bridle links

http://www.equusleather.co.uk/our-leathers/what-is-bridle-leather/
http://blog.orionleathercompany.com/

Getting a case made with true English Bridle would get you a very heavy and extremely durable case, assuming that it was properly constructed.

It would look more like this:

And not ever at all like this:

Both of these are our cases. The top is oil tan and the bottom is veg tan tooling leather. Neither is English Bridle because that leather is not needed for cue case making.

 

[JB Cases]

Human skin

But if your case maker says he has the next big thing in exotics, human skin, it's entirely possible.....

http://listverse.com/2012/12/11/top-10-bizarre-uses-for-human-skin/

"In this case, the skins’ unwitting donors are unknown. In 1876, Mr. Mahrenholz of H&A Mahrenholz in New York, a shoemaker who enjoyed experimenting on various types of leather including catfish and anaconda, procured the stomach, back, and buttock skins of a pair of unidentified elderly men who’d died and been previously dissected. After tanning the pieces of skin in dog manure and water – yes, there was a roaring trade in dog poop gathered and sold to tanneries, it was called “pure” – he made a handsome display boot and sent it to the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, D.C. where it remains in their collection."

 

[The Renfro]

Human skin has to be pretty worthless... Even after years on AZ it just won't be thick enough to be of any use.... Although I do admire those of us who keep trying to thicken what the good lord gave us.....

 

[JB Cases]

Human skin has to be pretty worthless... Even after years on AZ it just won't be thick enough to be of any use.... Although I do admire those of us who keep trying to thicken what the good lord gave us.....

Haven't you learned anything from this thread? Even the thinnest skin works with the right backing.

 

[dom_poppa]

Jb,

Know any custom makers of wallets in the industry?

I want a custom wallet.

 

[JB Cases]

Jb,

Know any custom makers of wallets in the industry?

I want a custom wallet.

Google is your friend. There are dozens of great wallet makers.

We have made a few wallets and purses and satchels for our good customers. We like to keep it limited to the customers who buy our cases. More personal and exclusive that way.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[ddadams]

Jb,

Know any custom makers of wallets in the industry?

I want a custom wallet.

I'm sure John can make you one.

I for one would LOVE an oil tan leather card holder/wallet to match my next case now that you mention it. That's a great idea.

 

[The Renfro]

As far as machine sewn vs hand sewn... Is a walking foot sewing machine really needed or does that matter if you are backing most of the thinner leathers???

 

[JB Cases]

As far as machine sewn vs hand sewn... Is a walking foot sewing machine really needed or does that matter if you are backing most of the thinner leathers???

A walking foot is extremely useful for keeping the material straight and for all thicknesses.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[RiverCity]

As far as machine sewn vs hand sewn... Is a walking foot sewing machine really needed or does that matter if you are backing most of the thinner leathers???

The walking foot is part of the feed mechanism. Most machines built or converted for leather stitching are triple feed machines, with smooth feet. There is an inner foot, outer foot and feed dogs. It helps move the material smoothly and evenly through the machine, and the smooth feet wont mark the top surface of the leather as much. You can sew VERY thin stuff on various machines, but anything over 2-3 oz leather should be sewn on a walking foot machine. Getting into machines is a whole different conversation, as there are a plethora of machines with different capacities and purposes.
A common machine saddle makers and others like is the juki 441 and its clones. Its a very heavy duty machine capable of sewing 3/4+ of firm leather. Overkill for a lot of purposes, but there are several holster makers who also like these machines. On the other end of the spectrum is something like the consew 206. A light to medium duty machine based on the flatbed platform. Excellent machine for light bag construction, wallets etc.
Chuck