Short Stroking

A

av84fun

Banned
In another thread there was quite a bit of discussion about the length of the backstroke.

I was quite surprised at the number of people who advocated something less than a fully drawn back stroke on the theory that it is more accurate.

I thought this subject was important enough to start a dedicated thread.

In the former thread, I chimed in favoring a fully drawn backstroke on all shots...and for softer shots, to shorten the BRIDGE not the length of the backstroke...in relation to where the bridge hand is.

By that I mean...sure the backstroke will necessarily be shorter if the bridge hand is moved closer to the CB.

What I mean by "short stroking" is not drawing the tip all the way back to the bridge hand...whereever it is positioned.

In support of my position, I stated that almost all pros draw fully back on almost every shot. It's somewhat hard to find examples because TV camera angles are generally terrible from the point of view of witnessing stance/stroke mechanics but I came across the following clip on youtube of reyes's stroke and it is very instructive.

You will see that even on the moderate pace shots he was shooting, the ferrule disappears into his closed bridge and on his open bridge the tip ALMOST comes off the back of his thumb!

I wouldn't have the nerve to draw back THAT far but the point is made.

Personally, I think there are few aspects of the art of shooting pool more valuable than consistency and as I said in the other thread, only by drawing FULLY back can you have an EXACT backstroke "target" that can be precisely repeated...every time.

And as noted above when a shorter actual backstroke length is required for softer shots, you can still achieve that by moving the bridge hand forward and still achieve the full draw back to your exact target. (move your grip hand forward too

Really interesting clip.

Enjoy.

Jim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6sKPP9nuis&NR=1
 
Just watched Wimpy this morning, Efren last night

I just watched Luther Lassiter this morning and Efren last night paying particular attention to their strokes. Both often shortened up and hit with the grip hand three or four inches in front of ninety degrees to the stick on the close touch shots. No way to use a full backswing or the tip would be six inches or more behind the bridge. The backstroke wasn't much behind 90 degrees. These guys have or had a whole arsenal of strokes at their command.

Many players draw the tip back to touch the bridge hand on many shots, seems like Buddy Hall does. Other players will not have the tip come within six inches of their bridge hand if table position allows. The one thing I believe to be true for the vast majority of players is that the transition between backstroke and final stroke should be either a full stop or a slow reversal, not a jerky motion. Some make a jerk backwards and stab forwards work but they are the exception to the rule.

As long as the final stroke starts far enough back to allow a gradual acceleration and adequate speed to make the shot I don't think much else matters, one player has one style one another. Many of the old players timed their shots so the tip was deliberately moving in an arc. I don't think that is done much anymore although it works and works well.

Hu



av84fun said:
In another thread there was quite a bit of discussion about the length of the backstroke.

I was quite surprised at the number of people who advocated something less than a fully drawn back stroke on the theory that it is more accurate.

I thought this subject was important enough to start a dedicated thread.

In the former thread, I chimed in favoring a fully drawn backstroke on all shots...and for softer shots, to shorten the BRIDGE not the length of the backstroke...in relation to where the bridge hand is.

By that I mean...sure the backstroke will necessarily be shorter if the bridge hand is moved closer to the CB.

What I mean by "short stroking" is not drawing the tip all the way back to the bridge hand...whereever it is positioned.

In support of my position, I stated that almost all pros draw fully back on almost every shot. It's somewhat hard to find examples because TV camera angles are generally terrible from the point of view of witnessing stance/stroke mechanics but I came across the following clip on youtube of reyes's stroke and it is very instructive.

You will see that even on the moderate pace shots he was shooting, the ferrule disappears into his closed bridge and on his open bridge the tip ALMOST comes off the back of his thumb!

I wouldn't have the nerve to draw back THAT far but the point is made.

Personally, I think there are few aspects of the art of shooting pool more valuable than consistency and as I said in the other thread, only by drawing FULLY back can you have an EXACT backstroke "target" that can be precisely repeated...every time.

And as noted above when a shorter actual backstroke length is required for softer shots, you can still achieve that by moving the bridge hand forward and still achieve the full draw back to your exact target. (move your grip hand forward too

Really interesting clip.

Enjoy.

Jim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6sKPP9nuis&NR=1
Click to expand...
 
Both often shortened up and hit with the grip hand three or four inches in front of ninety degrees to the stick on the close touch shots.

Could you explain the wording in red? I'm not clear on what you are saying. Thanks.
 
I'll try

Dawgie said:
Both often shortened up and hit with the grip hand three or four inches in front of ninety degrees to the stick on the close touch shots.

Could you explain the wording in red? I'm not clear on what you are saying. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Not sure I can say it any plainer, I'll try saying it differently. Their grip hand was very near the front of the wrap so their grip hand was well forward of their elbow when the cue tip was at the cue ball. With their bridge length being less than eight inches there is no way that they had much of a back stroke at all. Follow-through would be very little too with a pendulum stroke but there is usually huge elbow drop on follow-through with this technique.

Hope this helps,

Hu
 
JoeyInCali said:
Short strokes=choking for the cash imo.
Click to expand...

Blanket statement.

I believe that, as has been stated, for close up shots requiring fine control, a shorter stroke is much better. I played a lot of bar table 8 ball (a game requiring MUCH more fine control than big table 9 ball) on seven footers, and found that my "big table stroke" was very harder to accurately control on those tables, but when I choked up on the cue and shortened my bridge, and I was able to control the CB much better.

Russ
 
ShootingArts said:
I just watched Luther Lassiter this morning and Efren last night paying particular attention to their strokes. Both often shortened up and hit with the grip hand three or four inches in front of ninety degrees to the stick on the close touch shots. No way to use a full backswing or the tip would be six inches or more behind the bridge. The backstroke wasn't much behind 90 degrees. These guys have or had a whole arsenal of strokes at their command.

Many players draw the tip back to touch the bridge hand on many shots, seems like Buddy Hall does. Other players will not have the tip come within six inches of their bridge hand if table position allows. The one thing I believe to be true for the vast majority of players is that the transition between backstroke and final stroke should be either a full stop or a slow reversal, not a jerky motion. Some make a jerk backwards and stab forwards work but they are the exception to the rule.
As long as the final stroke starts far enough back to allow a gradual acceleration and adequate speed to make the shot I don't think much else matters, one player has one style one another. Many of the old players timed their shots so the tip was deliberately moving in an arc. I don't think that is done much anymore although it works and works well.

Hu
Click to expand...


Interesting points Hu. Yes a very large percentage of the Champions of old used a less than 90 deg. angle to the cue at address routinely.

Mosconi, Wimpy, Deacon...most of them did which always starts the debate that I don't wish to start here as to whether the "modern" players and instructors who mostly advocate the 90 deg. angle are right or the Old Time Champions are right.

Some say that the 14.1 stroke is different than the 9 ball stroke but Wimpy played some hellacious good 9 ball with his forward grip hand.

But back to the point...you correctly point out that there are LITERALLY "different strokes for different folks".

Certainly 999 out of 1000 players who tried the Reyes/Busta LOOP/PUMP stroke with a thumb and forefinger grip couldn't make 3 balls in a row that way.

In my post, I wasn't referring to ALL shots but I think most would agree that the player's basic "default stroke" is used on...oh...80% of all shots taken and that is what I was referring to.


"Other players will not have the tip come within six inches of their bridge hand if table position allows."

Not many! Strickland has one of the longest bridge lengths on the planet and his "default" backstroke takes the tip back to within an inch or two from his bridge hand unless he's bridging with his hand on a rail or is stretching.

Here's Strickland/Reyes at the 2005 U.S. Open (full match) which is a fun one to watch.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o9l1GxOE5Yc

I couldn't agree with you more that all great players have a smooth transition from back to forward strokes (except Hopkins maybe) and that for most players, a full pause (me) or slow reversal adds considerably to consistency.

You are certainly correct that many pros approach things quite differently. But my observation is that most draw full back most of the time and those who use a full pause do so an even greater percentage of the time.

Personally, I think it is a fairly critical aspect of stroke mechanics that is worthy of these discussions.

Regards,
Jim
 
minor clarification

Jim,

I definitely feel that it is all valuable for discussion and of course fully agree that any blanket statement is bound to have exceptions to it. My thoughts are that most of the muscles in the arm are involved in the forward stroke and the gradual increase in speed from either a slight pause or slow reversal of motion allows a more coordinated contraction of the muscles creating a straighter more accurate stroke. Note that these are my thoughts only, not presenting this as fact.

The clarification I wanted to mention is that many of today's champions still hit with the arm/cue angle forward of 90 degrees fairly often. I didn't particularly notice this until I started really watching stroke mechanics. Ignore John Schmidt's forearm, he shoots with a trailing wrist/hand which means you have to look at his elbow and actual grip.

Different strokes are often used for nine ball and 14.1 but this is largely because of a different style of play. Nine ball players usually travel the cue ball around the table far more than 14.1 players. This isn't really necessary, or at least not to the degree it is usually done.

Speaking of strokes, I want to ask BlackJack about Cicero Murphy's. I particularly wanted to watch him today but he didn't get much air time. A beautiful stroke though.

Hu


av84fun said:
Interesting points Hu. Yes a very large percentage of the Champions of old used a less than 90 deg. angle to the cue at address routinely.

Mosconi, Wimpy, Deacon...most of them did which always starts the debate that I don't wish to start here as to whether the "modern" players and instructors who mostly advocate the 90 deg. angle are right or the Old Time Champions are right.

Some say that the 14.1 stroke is different than the 9 ball stroke but Wimpy played some hellacious good 9 ball with his forward grip hand.

But back to the point...you correctly point out that there are LITERALLY "different strokes for different folks".

Certainly 999 out of 1000 players who tried the Reyes/Busta LOOP/PUMP stroke with a thumb and forefinger grip couldn't make 3 balls in a row that way.

In my post, I wasn't referring to ALL shots but I think most would agree that the player's basic "default stroke" is used on...oh...80% of all shots taken and that is what I was referring to.


"Other players will not have the tip come within six inches of their bridge hand if table position allows."

Not many! Strickland has one of the longest bridge lengths on the planet and his "default" backstroke takes the tip back to within an inch or two from his bridge hand unless he's bridging with his hand on a rail or is stretching.

Here's Strickland/Reyes at the 2005 U.S. Open (full match) which is a fun one to watch.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o9l1GxOE5Yc

I couldn't agree with you more that all great players have a smooth transition from back to forward strokes (except Hopkins maybe) and that for most players, a full pause (me) or slow reversal adds considerably to consistency.

You are certainly correct that many pros approach things quite differently. But my observation is that most draw full back most of the time and those who use a full pause do so an even greater percentage of the time.

Personally, I think it is a fairly critical aspect of stroke mechanics that is worthy of these discussions.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...
 
"short stroking"

Russ,

I suspect Joey is familiar with the old usage of "short stroking" the ball. The term was used for dogging any shot, usually under pressure. I don't know if the term is still used some places, haven't heard it in a long time.

As a less than serious put down I used to declare myself "the Louisiana short stroke king". Of course it had more than one meaning even back then. :D

Hu



Russ Chewning said:
Blanket statement.

I believe that, as has been stated, for close up shots requiring fine control, a shorter stroke is much better. I played a lot of bar table 8 ball (a game requiring MUCH more fine control than big table 9 ball) on seven footers, and found that my "big table stroke" was very harder to accurately control on those tables, but when I choked up on the cue and shortened my bridge, and I was able to control the CB much better.

Russ
Click to expand...
 
I have found that the farther that I draw back the more likely I will pull the cue toward my body. I'm sure not everyone has this problem.

I do not believe that you need a long back stroke to complete 90 percent of the shots. To me drawing back more than about 5 inches is a waste on most shots, if you have a loose grip, tip close to cue ball at address with lower arm at 90 degrees with cue.

If I use a slow deliberate and measured back stroke my accuracy improves and I have no trouble following thru completely. It is not a punch stroke. Accuracy and consistency are more of an issue to me than power.
 
I believe that a short bridge (8"), an even shorter stroke... especially on touch shots, and whenever possible a tight closed bridge contribute to more accurate shooting. Less room for error.

I wonder if this has something to do with being a geezer and the possibility of having diminished fine muscle control.

I guess the cause doesn't make much difference. I believe I'm going to be more accurate so I'll keep working on my game within these parameters.
 
I believe the reason that BCA instructors advocate a 90 degree angle for the grip hand, a shorter bridge, and even shorter bridges for finesse shots (close work), is because we are not all as gifted as Earl and Buddy. Their form is still fabulous to emulate with the possible exception of Earl's bridge length, but not many of us can carry off the execution in a similar manner. The form taught by the BCA gives the average player the greatest chance of an effective and repeatable stroke, which will improve your game. That doesn't mean that Hopkins, Pagulayan, or Schmidt are wrong, just different...Tom
 
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