I have been noticing something about my game. The longer the backswing the more i miss. I have been watching alot of mike sigel tapes and i noticed that he doesn't go that far back. Same thing with allen hopkins. Now, allen is on the extreme end of that. However, i think i remember something to the effect that when the straightness of cue shaft deliveryto the cue ball is taken into account; allen hopkins had the straightest stroke of all of the pros. Can anyone confirm this? I think you have to have alot of natural ability to take long back swings and always come through the cue ball perfectly every time. There only so many people who can do this consistently? James walden also has short back swings. So anyway i have been experimenting with it. It seems that i'm shooting straighter, however, when you experiment with things you always think you found the missing "ingredient" to pool. Anybody have any insight to any of this?
Shorter backswing..
- Thread starter clint3612
- Start date
I've felt the same thing. On long shots I tend to take a shorter back swing(shorten my stroke length) for more accuracy. In my mind, the shorter my stroke, the less margin for error (deviation from a straight stroke in this case). I don't necessarily like this idea but it does tend to help.
Whenever I think of long backswings, one person comes to mind…Xiaoting Pan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCq5ZSpTq1Q
I think you are on to something though. As I pondered your question, I realized something about the "pause" that is so popular with professional instructors right now...and it certainly works for me. My backswing favors the long end of the spectrum and without the “pause” I start feeling rushed & tend to miss a lot more shots.
What I realized is that at the end of the backswing your arm is more extended and your hand is in a weakened position. If you rush directly into a forward swing, there is ample opportunity (consciously or unconsciously) for the hand to gain unwanted side movement. The “pause” allows you to settle your hand before engaging in the forward delivery. What does everyone else think?
A shortened backswing would keep your arm less extended and your hand in a stronger position.
I also remembered one particular shot from this past weekend. I was shooting a long shot with the CB frozen on the end rail. I uncharacteristically took a very short backswing and nailed the shot with uncommon confidence. I put that in my memory banks & will use that technique in like situations in the future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCq5ZSpTq1Q
I think you are on to something though. As I pondered your question, I realized something about the "pause" that is so popular with professional instructors right now...and it certainly works for me. My backswing favors the long end of the spectrum and without the “pause” I start feeling rushed & tend to miss a lot more shots.
What I realized is that at the end of the backswing your arm is more extended and your hand is in a weakened position. If you rush directly into a forward swing, there is ample opportunity (consciously or unconsciously) for the hand to gain unwanted side movement. The “pause” allows you to settle your hand before engaging in the forward delivery. What does everyone else think?
A shortened backswing would keep your arm less extended and your hand in a stronger position.
I also remembered one particular shot from this past weekend. I was shooting a long shot with the CB frozen on the end rail. I uncharacteristically took a very short backswing and nailed the shot with uncommon confidence. I put that in my memory banks & will use that technique in like situations in the future.
The backswing varies person to person. Its kinda a difficult one to coach. Best advice from me is keep your head as still as possible, when extending your back swing, keep your elbow pivoted in the same position and slightly loosen your grip on the cue when drawing the cue backwards.
When cueing off rails/cushions what might help is adjusting your hand positon on the cue placing it further up the cue rather than shorting your backswing. that way you dont change the mechanics of your backswing and can still generate sum force if needed!
When cueing off rails/cushions what might help is adjusting your hand positon on the cue placing it further up the cue rather than shorting your backswing. that way you dont change the mechanics of your backswing and can still generate sum force if needed!
I also underwent a change in my backswing, some time back. I have shortened my backswing & when practicing, I also concentrate on taking the cue straight back on the shot line & slower than I used to.
When practicing, I try to imagine that I am cocking my arm to stroke the cue ball a certain distance.
As mentioned before, I try to assimilate the speed needed in my warmup strokes. The one other thing, which has helped considerably, is a second setting to check my aim & a short but definite pause.
I do believe the Backswing is crucial component for success
When practicing, I try to imagine that I am cocking my arm to stroke the cue ball a certain distance.
As mentioned before, I try to assimilate the speed needed in my warmup strokes. The one other thing, which has helped considerably, is a second setting to check my aim & a short but definite pause.
I do believe the Backswing is crucial component for success
This is something I've learned a while back. I spoke of it here ...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=835585&postcount=5
IMO, I don't think you can put into words how critical it is to deliver the stroke the same way you aimed it on your last practice stroke when you felt you were on.
Stopping at the cue ball is absolutely important, but the thing is, not to be complacent when you stop and take a look, it is to very definitely re-evaluate the path of the OB if you had followed through on that stroke. Seeing the OB go into the pocket and then exactly delivering that same stroke with follow though. If it looks a tad off, re-adjust and re-stop for a check.
At least for me, the honing in made a big difference. The shorter backstroke helps prevent variations in the last aim vs actual delivery.
Also, if I need a powerful stroke, I make sure my practice strokes are longer and more powerful to once again emulate the actual hit when I stop at the cue ball to evalute. Don't take your regular practice stroke, take one and stop at the cue that will emulate how you plan to deliver it.
The slightest variation from what you saw as the correct hit on your last practice stroke when you stop at the cue ball and what you actually deliver is the major cause of missing. (aside of course from the gremlins in our brains)
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=835585&postcount=5
IMO, I don't think you can put into words how critical it is to deliver the stroke the same way you aimed it on your last practice stroke when you felt you were on.
Stopping at the cue ball is absolutely important, but the thing is, not to be complacent when you stop and take a look, it is to very definitely re-evaluate the path of the OB if you had followed through on that stroke. Seeing the OB go into the pocket and then exactly delivering that same stroke with follow though. If it looks a tad off, re-adjust and re-stop for a check.
At least for me, the honing in made a big difference. The shorter backstroke helps prevent variations in the last aim vs actual delivery.
Also, if I need a powerful stroke, I make sure my practice strokes are longer and more powerful to once again emulate the actual hit when I stop at the cue ball to evalute. Don't take your regular practice stroke, take one and stop at the cue that will emulate how you plan to deliver it.
The slightest variation from what you saw as the correct hit on your last practice stroke when you stop at the cue ball and what you actually deliver is the major cause of missing. (aside of course from the gremlins in our brains)
Re:Long backswing
One day I was watching Cliff Joyner playing the ghost and he missed a shot in two consecutive games and after missing the second time he came over to me and asked if I knew why he missed those shots. Of course I had no idea and he told me it was because he took a longer back stroke. He said he has to constantly remind himself against taking a longer back stroke than normal because some shots make you want to do that something extra and the cue stick isn't delivered as straight as when a shorter stroke is used. It was a tip that has often helped me pocket balls.
One day I was watching Cliff Joyner playing the ghost and he missed a shot in two consecutive games and after missing the second time he came over to me and asked if I knew why he missed those shots. Of course I had no idea and he told me it was because he took a longer back stroke. He said he has to constantly remind himself against taking a longer back stroke than normal because some shots make you want to do that something extra and the cue stick isn't delivered as straight as when a shorter stroke is used. It was a tip that has often helped me pocket balls.
Doug said:
I disagree that a longer backswing isn't as accurate as a short one. If your delivery process is accurate and repeatable, the cue will move in a straight line, regardless of how long your backswing is. IMO, the key phrase here is, "longer backstroke than NORMAL". The only purpose of the backswing is to create enough distance between the cuetip and CB, to provide the necessary acceleration through the CB. A "normal" backswing should deliver the tip (on the backswing), at the minimum, to the fingernail of your outstretched finger on your bridge hand. Many players prefer to bring the tip back to the knuckle. Buddy Hall almost pulls the tip out of his bridge hand. This is true for 95% of all SOP shots. Folks who shortstroke the cue will likely have difficulty varying the strokespeed of the cue, because the brain goes into 'override' mode when you shortstroke, but still want to put some speed on the CB. Then grip takes over, the shot gets muscled, and there is a complete breakdown of the normal stroke process. Hopkins is certainly an exception to this rule, but he is a freak of nature, albeit a many time champion player.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I tend to agree with others that the longer your back swing is, the more variable you have for miscueing or not getting the desired outcome.
I try very hard not to adjust my hand position or back swing for different shots. Except perhaps jumps and masse's but even then, it's minimal. If I need a lil more english on the CB, I will tighten or loosen my grip on the cue and increase/decrease the snap in my wrist. This consistency in my stance/grip/stroke over many years has taught me how much action I can get off the CB and what my strong/weak shots are based on my stroke. My rate of success is much much lower when I try and make the cue/cue ball do more then I can with my natural stroke. Instead of altering my stroke for a shot, I will think of a different shot to play all together.
Now something interesting about stance and stroke I learned in Atlanta. I had a friend that was a couple inches taller then me, 5'11/6'0 and his stance was more wide open with a grip at the very back of the cue. Where my stance is closer, like a snooker stance and I grip at the front of the wrap. My friend would get tons of action with what seemed to be a long sweeping range of stroke both forward and back swing, but it's a stance/stroke I could not do. Mine is more of a point, snap and shot type of stroke and any additional back swing throws me off.
Rambling a lil, but I guess it comes down to stance/grip/stroke and maybe over all conditioning for your style of shotmaking/play.
ez
I try very hard not to adjust my hand position or back swing for different shots. Except perhaps jumps and masse's but even then, it's minimal. If I need a lil more english on the CB, I will tighten or loosen my grip on the cue and increase/decrease the snap in my wrist. This consistency in my stance/grip/stroke over many years has taught me how much action I can get off the CB and what my strong/weak shots are based on my stroke. My rate of success is much much lower when I try and make the cue/cue ball do more then I can with my natural stroke. Instead of altering my stroke for a shot, I will think of a different shot to play all together.
Now something interesting about stance and stroke I learned in Atlanta. I had a friend that was a couple inches taller then me, 5'11/6'0 and his stance was more wide open with a grip at the very back of the cue. Where my stance is closer, like a snooker stance and I grip at the front of the wrap. My friend would get tons of action with what seemed to be a long sweeping range of stroke both forward and back swing, but it's a stance/stroke I could not do. Mine is more of a point, snap and shot type of stroke and any additional back swing throws me off.
Rambling a lil, but I guess it comes down to stance/grip/stroke and maybe over all conditioning for your style of shotmaking/play.
ez
Just so you Azr's know; I have worked with Scott a couple times now and I have found him to be a difficult and argumentative "student" lol. Actually, Scott picked up on the phrasing of the sentence "longer than normal" and I feel sure this causes the miss, however, IMO within reason an unusually long stroke increases the propensity for error due to additional cue movement. The young lady from China is an exception because she uses it on every stroke (repeatable) and she has exceptional talent. Scott, check with me before correcting me again or next time you buy the beer.
Scott, quick question, Lets say Shaq walked in, wanted to play in a celeb fundraiser tourney, and wants badly not to let down his fans, he wants lessons, and equipment. Naturaly your rep is on the line, Do you hand him a standard length cue? If so explain.
SPINDOKTOR
SPINDOKTOR
ceebee said:
Since warm up strokes are only about half the stroke you will be using when you actually pull the trigger, how do you accomplish this? On your warm up strokes, you have gone from zero to full acceleration and back to zero before you ever get the tip to the contact point on the cue ball. This would be completely different from the speed you will be developing when you finally use your full stroke.
I see warm up strokes as a method to verify alignment and to determine what spin, if any, you will be putting on the cue based on the contact point. If you want to warm up the speed of your stroke, you would have to do it away from the cue ball, so you could warm up with a full stroke.
Steve
Well I guess we can agree to disagree.
I think its not only easy to concentrate on and duplicate in your mind as well as in your practice stroke the speed, feel, contact point, angle of the cue stick relative to the table bed, and perception of the desired reaction and follow through of the actual hit, I think its imperative to do so each time.
Exactly why the actual hit should as close as possible mirror the practice stroke. Any change in the stroke will have a negative effect on the accuracy of the contact point on the cue ball.
I play mostly straight pool, which is overall much softer hitting, much closer shots, and much less prone to inaccuracies that the long hard cut shots of 9 ball would be affected by with bad hits on the CB, but even then, taking a break shot as an example. I take more forceful practice strokes and stop dead at the cue ball, exactly evaluating what the result would have been on a full follow through. If its off slightly, I'll do it over, adjusting and again precisely evaluating the entire result of what would have been on an actual follow through. That includes both the OB an CB path, the carom off the rack and direction of secondary balls as well as the CB.
I can't imagine taking the effort to assure that, and then, on your actual stroke, you add or remove another 3 or so inches of backstroke and follow through longer, shorter,harder or softer than you originally felt and envisioned.
The result may be good, may be bad, but it surely would be different that what you just practiced.
Perhaps I'm not explaining well, but I can say without a doubt, that FOR ME, this approach brings me into dead stroke much faster in a game because it enhances my confidence level so much that I will carry out what I have just mentally rehearsed, because it was perfect in rehearsal, and now I'm going to do it exactly the same way but for real.
I think its not only easy to concentrate on and duplicate in your mind as well as in your practice stroke the speed, feel, contact point, angle of the cue stick relative to the table bed, and perception of the desired reaction and follow through of the actual hit, I think its imperative to do so each time.
Exactly why the actual hit should as close as possible mirror the practice stroke. Any change in the stroke will have a negative effect on the accuracy of the contact point on the cue ball.
I play mostly straight pool, which is overall much softer hitting, much closer shots, and much less prone to inaccuracies that the long hard cut shots of 9 ball would be affected by with bad hits on the CB, but even then, taking a break shot as an example. I take more forceful practice strokes and stop dead at the cue ball, exactly evaluating what the result would have been on a full follow through. If its off slightly, I'll do it over, adjusting and again precisely evaluating the entire result of what would have been on an actual follow through. That includes both the OB an CB path, the carom off the rack and direction of secondary balls as well as the CB.
I can't imagine taking the effort to assure that, and then, on your actual stroke, you add or remove another 3 or so inches of backstroke and follow through longer, shorter,harder or softer than you originally felt and envisioned.
The result may be good, may be bad, but it surely would be different that what you just practiced.
Perhaps I'm not explaining well, but I can say without a doubt, that FOR ME, this approach brings me into dead stroke much faster in a game because it enhances my confidence level so much that I will carry out what I have just mentally rehearsed, because it was perfect in rehearsal, and now I'm going to do it exactly the same way but for real.
Doug said:
Doug...I'm certain it's that high altitude air up at Soddy Daisy! LMAO
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
SPINDOKTOR said:
In Shaq's case, since he is 7'+ tall, I think a 62" cue would work better. However, IMO he could still play with a normal cue...he'd just have to hold on to the very end of the buttcap with his thumb and forefinger. As long as he was still able to freeswing his forearm (a natural pendulum swing), and the forearm was mostly perpendicular at impact, the shorter cue shouldn't make a lot of difference. I've already worked with guys 6'5", who played with a regular length cue with no problem. They just have to hold the cue at the back end, behind the wrap.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
3andstop said:
I have to agree with you here, with one exception...any change in the stroke, for some players, MAY have a negative effect on the accuracy (but may not, as well). IMO, if you make your warm up strokes exactly the same as your delivery stroke, the only difference is that you finish the swing after impact with the CB. Lot's of folks may vary, but I'm in your camp when it comes to making the warmups just like the final delivery. All you need is the pause at the CB, to set the mind in motion. Nice explanation!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Seems like the length of the bridge and the back swing will vary depending on the type of shot. Short finesse shots require a short bridge and swing while at other times I need to "let my stroke out"... as the saying goes. The change in stroke seems to happen rather naturally after standing over the shot and the brain calculates what is needed to get the job at hand completed.
A short bridge is usually recommended because the short bridge and stroke are usually more accurate... less room for error. But a short bridge used on a long shot, one requiring power, would tend to cause the shot to be hurried or jerked trying to generate that power.
Nine ball players generally use a longer bridge than one pocket players because a lot of the shot making is table length and the use of long draw or force follow going 3 rails is frequent. Games like one pocket or straight pool usually require much shorter finesse shots and consequently a short bridge and stroke are used more of the time.
The shot determines the length of the bridge and stroke. Same with golf.
A short bridge is usually recommended because the short bridge and stroke are usually more accurate... less room for error. But a short bridge used on a long shot, one requiring power, would tend to cause the shot to be hurried or jerked trying to generate that power.
Nine ball players generally use a longer bridge than one pocket players because a lot of the shot making is table length and the use of long draw or force follow going 3 rails is frequent. Games like one pocket or straight pool usually require much shorter finesse shots and consequently a short bridge and stroke are used more of the time.
The shot determines the length of the bridge and stroke. Same with golf.
Steve, I agree with you.pooltchr said:
IMO it comes down to the follow through more than the back swing. I say that because if I take a longer back swing I don't seem to get the needed distance for a complete follow though. I have a tendancy to slap at the CB. Like in golf, I try to make sure my follow through distance is longer than the back swing. With a short back swing I generally get my complete stroke.
my .02
buzzsaw said:
Jezzzz Buzzsaw. The longer length of follow through is an Urban Myth. The cueball is gone in about 1/1000 of a second. No amount of follow through will change the energy in the cueball.
All SOP shots should have the same length follow through. How you get to the cueball is more important.
Thanks.
SPF=randyg
pooltchr said:
I understand what you're saying Steve, and I agree with you. But maybe the OP doesn't mean he actually replicates his intended stroke speed with warm-up strokes, just that he prefaces a faster stroke with faster warm-up strokes. It could be that varying the speed of his warm-up strokes helps him get the feel for the intended speed of the shot.
I haven't actually verified this, but I think my break shot is quite a bit faster if I've done a series of very quick warm-up strokes. Then on the last stroke I draw back slowly after the set position. Maybe my fast-twitch muscle fibers need that heads-up that they're about to fire or something. I don't know. And I know the break stroke is different. I'm just saying someone deriving benefit from varying the speed of his warm-up strokes doesn't sound absurd to me.