That's absolutely not how chess clocks have been used for cue sports. Your clock runs the entire time it is your turn to shoot. You have 45 minutes to win your match, for example.
Shot clock in pool
- Thread starter dumisin
- Start date
Oikawa
Well-known member
Ah, so you mean more like a real chess clock. This makes more sense.
In the finals of a tournament, I do not see usefulness of a shot clock. Though, I see the need for one during match play leading up to the finals. It bothers me watching a finals match for a lot of money and a player is trying to figure out a shot / pattern etc and this annoying beep beep beep starts going off. Couldn't the referee just notify the play they have 10 seconds to make a decision? IMO
if they use one they need a definitive way of enforcing the time limit. so the beeps gives it that .
and its on the player to take it to that point where he has only 10 seconds left.
every tournament or sport ultimately for survival has to have a way to eliminate slow play.
thats why there are refs. in most sports that control it.
otherwise say baseball you are behind so dont do anything till it gets so dark the game is called off. so the ref. can make you forfeit if abusing.
or boxing when one fighter doesnt fight or wrestling when one doesnt move. the ref. breaks it up or gives points or a warning.
and its on the player to take it to that point where he has only 10 seconds left.
every tournament or sport ultimately for survival has to have a way to eliminate slow play.
thats why there are refs. in most sports that control it.
otherwise say baseball you are behind so dont do anything till it gets so dark the game is called off. so the ref. can make you forfeit if abusing.
or boxing when one fighter doesnt fight or wrestling when one doesnt move. the ref. breaks it up or gives points or a warning.
If the problem is that you want the game to "keep moving",
The solution is aggregate time, not per shot time.
Per shot time actually SLOWs the game DOWN, no shot is faster than 25 seconds or slower than 30 seconds.
Speed pool runs entire racks in under 40 seconds.
Aggregate time works as follows:
Let us say shooter takes 7 seconds on 1st shot, 14 seconds on 2nd shot, and 6 seconds on 3rd shot and we have an aggregate time of 30 seconds per shot. So we have 7+14+6 = 27 seconds and are shooting shot 4. Shot 4 needs to be performed before the 2 minute mark (4*30 seconds). So player has 1 minute 33 seconds for shot 4.
This encourages player to shoot more quickly so that if a problem develops he has time to mentally solve it. A pure shot clock encourages playing as "slow as allowed".
Also note: the chess clock works even better for aggregate time than shot time because that is what it was designed to do.
Efren's famous Z shot was 35± seconds (as a reference point).
They use shot clocks at 3-cushion billiards. There is one player who times his final strokes by the 5-second warning beeps. Nearly every shot.
At the Wreck room TV pit/stream this past weekend in Denver.
Race to 7.
30 sec shot clock.
Last ten minutes of play 15 second shot clock.
Race to 7.
30 sec shot clock.
Last ten minutes of play 15 second shot clock.
30 seconds by 9 balls = 4.5 minutes
then racking and the break with no time on that say 1.5 minutes. plus opponents getting up and down from the table.
6 minutes a rack.
on a race to 11 it could easily be around 20 games
that's 2 hours to play one set in a tournament. of course it may not take that long but it could.
that is why 30 second clock isnt good. but 15 with one 30 during a game is better.
and slow players should be told to not come.
then racking and the break with no time on that say 1.5 minutes. plus opponents getting up and down from the table.
6 minutes a rack.
on a race to 11 it could easily be around 20 games
that's 2 hours to play one set in a tournament. of course it may not take that long but it could.
that is why 30 second clock isnt good. but 15 with one 30 during a game is better.
and slow players should be told to not come.
This is a generally well-reasoned and well-presented post, offering the intuitive, but ultimately irreconcilable-with-experience, argument that slower play leads to better decisions and better play.
In fact, I would suggest that two of the most "celebrated" slow players of recent times make better decisions when they play on the shot clock. That would be BCA Hall of Famer Ralf Souquet, widely regarded as one of the slowest players of his generation and potential BCA Hall of Famer Eklent Kaci, widely regarded as on one the slowest of this generation. As superstars, each has always had to play the late rounds of major events with the shot clock, and each has produced his finest pool with the shot clock in use. Neither of them ever showed any signs of slippage when forced to play faster, but when they were permitted to slow down in matches without a shot clock, they played very slowly.
Neither Souquet nor Kaci held the game up because they took an eternity to decide what to do, but instead because their processes of setup, pre-shot-routine and shot execution took longer than that of others. This is why members of this forum have so often labeled them as "unwatchable" in matches without a shot clock.
The shot clock abusers, who take the full thirty seconds on almost every shot and take forever in matches not having a shot clock, for the most past, are often not slow decision makers at all, just slow players. Some wipe their cue down on almost every shot, some go to their water bottle on almost every shot, and some have other time-consuming habits that are unrelated to decision making.
So, while it would be logical to assume that slow players are using the extra time in decision making and that their lethargic ways are leading to better decisions and better play, I have not seen any evidence of it in my 48+ years around pro pool.
I would, of course, agree that players will make better choices if given thirty seconds than if given fifteen seconds, but I have not seen evidence that turning off the 30-second shot clock in a match produces a higher level of either conceptualization or execution. I agree with Bob Jewett that the occasional shot requires a little extra analysis, but that's what extensions are for, and, including the automatic extension on the shot after the break, one gets two extensions per rack. That's more than enough for me.
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The simple answer to this is that the technology and personnel required cost money that most event producers would rather not spend. Even Matchroom does not use a shot clock until the late stages of their events, and while I wish it were not the case, I respect their decision to allocate their production budget elsewhere.
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Rotation games!
There are only a few options it's not rocket science it's right in front of you.
In 30 seconds you can take a nap, have lunch, select a pattern, or decide on which safety option is the best move and have 10 seconds to spare to pull your underwear out of your ass.
A major dilemma gets you one 15 second extension.
You're a GPS, punch in the route and put it in drive. If you make a wrong turn don't panic or go off the deep end mentally. Reset to plan B and move the cue ball around like you are supposed to.
If you don't have the stroke and cue ball knowledge you need an hour time clock.
There are only a few options it's not rocket science it's right in front of you.
In 30 seconds you can take a nap, have lunch, select a pattern, or decide on which safety option is the best move and have 10 seconds to spare to pull your underwear out of your ass.
A major dilemma gets you one 15 second extension.
You're a GPS, punch in the route and put it in drive. If you make a wrong turn don't panic or go off the deep end mentally. Reset to plan B and move the cue ball around like you are supposed to.
If you don't have the stroke and cue ball knowledge you need an hour time clock.
a shot clock might even make it slower for the average tournament player. normally they play reasonably fast and dont want to slow the game down. but with a shot clock it is now acceptable to take close to 30 seconds on every shot and soon make it part of their game.
and believe and rightly so that thinking through each shot gives them an increase in their edge.
a shot clock of 15 seconds with one or two short extensions a game might make sense just for the tv table.
and believe and rightly so that thinking through each shot gives them an increase in their edge.
a shot clock of 15 seconds with one or two short extensions a game might make sense just for the tv table.
How would that work though? Who is going to be monitoring that shot clock to start when the cue ball stops and also watching to make sure a competitor doesn't shoot after his allotted time? A chess clock works well for chess because each player gets the exact same amount of "innings". There are pool matches where 1 player spends a significant amount more time at the table than his opponent yet he may never go over 30 seconds per shot. In 8 ball player 1 break and run, opponent breaks dry, then P1 runs all of his balls and scratches on the 8, P1 was at the table the entire time except for player 2 breaking 1 rack and the score is tied with a huge time imbalance.
Have you watched any of the Ultimate Pool USA tournaments? When the players get down to the 15 second shot clock they are moving pretty fast
still again why doesn't anyone want the tournament director to tell or punish slow players with penalties and ask the ones that refuse to speed up play not to come to their tournaments.
that will solve it in a flash.
do you all think players have a right to be in any tournament and play as they desire even if it disrupts the flow?
that will solve it in a flash.
do you all think players have a right to be in any tournament and play as they desire even if it disrupts the flow?
you're overestimating the pace of the average tournament player.
A chess clock works by giving each player enough time to win the match but not enough time to spend two minutes on every shot. If one shot takes five minutes, that's fine. It's time off that player's clock. He better make it up on other shots.
I have found that usually the mere presence of the clock causes slow players to play at near-normal speed.
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Slow or up Down/Look around slow.
Two Completely different ways of playing.
If the clock removes the Up/down players that often re tee up 3 times per shot that's Good.
Any player then gets up/down 2 to Three times each shot, I go elsewhere.
If acceptable when it's not my shot, I'd sit in my chair backwards.
Two Completely different ways of playing.
If the clock removes the Up/down players that often re tee up 3 times per shot that's Good.
Any player then gets up/down 2 to Three times each shot, I go elsewhere.
If acceptable when it's not my shot, I'd sit in my chair backwards.