sadly, at the pro level, imo, there are no more shotmakers, it's all position and safety and textbook style play, maybe a good thing overall, but I like me some great shotmaking!!!!
shot maker vs position player
- Thread starter liakos
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After talking more with some friends, we all feel the position player makes out in the end! As far as intimidating, I admit I get easily intimidated by great shotmakers, but it works both ways. People also get intimidated by me with my calm attitude at the table getting in line shot after shot
It's all good
thanks everyone for all your input and different perspectives on this subject
learning to control the cue ball is much more important.
i play a B- to B level speed and i think my strongest facet is shot making, although i lose the cueball too much, which will mess up my runs despite my shot making. i can only make so many hard shots consecutively in a sloppy run or throughout the day. i think this is where people slow down in the development in their game, because they dont want to change their game and sacrifice shot making for learning how to play good position and be comfortable with playing a given shot a certain way in which they are not comfortable.
sometimes i see a key shot and i know i can pocket the ball, but to pocket the ball and gain shape is so much more difficult. especially if it is a pressure situation, but i think this is where you truly learn and remember the shot. because you did something uncomfortable despite your judgement prior, you made a great shot under pressure and probably will remember that great shot that you usually would have not shot otherwise.
i play a B- to B level speed and i think my strongest facet is shot making, although i lose the cueball too much, which will mess up my runs despite my shot making. i can only make so many hard shots consecutively in a sloppy run or throughout the day. i think this is where people slow down in the development in their game, because they dont want to change their game and sacrifice shot making for learning how to play good position and be comfortable with playing a given shot a certain way in which they are not comfortable.
sometimes i see a key shot and i know i can pocket the ball, but to pocket the ball and gain shape is so much more difficult. especially if it is a pressure situation, but i think this is where you truly learn and remember the shot. because you did something uncomfortable despite your judgement prior, you made a great shot under pressure and probably will remember that great shot that you usually would have not shot otherwise.
a new world opens up
When you start playing for very tight position, basically spot shape instead of area shape, it takes hard work for awhile then a whole new world opens up. I kinda thought this thread favored the shot maker but the only way the shot maker wins is if he totally overpowers the position player with a big run. That happens, but not really that often.
Once the position player is on the table he is more likely to control the table for a longer time than the shot maker. Few things more frustrating to a shotmaker than cooling his jets in a chair for long stretches then getting up to find there is no shot at all over and over.
Hu
After talking more with some friends, we all feel the position player makes out in the end! As far as intimidating, I admit I get easily intimidated by great shotmakers, but it works both ways. People also get intimidated by me with my calm attitude at the table getting in line shot after shot
It's all good
When you start playing for very tight position, basically spot shape instead of area shape, it takes hard work for awhile then a whole new world opens up. I kinda thought this thread favored the shot maker but the only way the shot maker wins is if he totally overpowers the position player with a big run. That happens, but not really that often.
Once the position player is on the table he is more likely to control the table for a longer time than the shot maker. Few things more frustrating to a shotmaker than cooling his jets in a chair for long stretches then getting up to find there is no shot at all over and over.
Hu
Whenever possible, try to run the line of position. Crossing the line can get you into trouble.
No matter what you do, you will always have to cut across the line, your opponet may leave you that or the layout dictates cutting across the angle.
It's never a gimme you will be pushing forward into the angles.Most racks you always have to cut across somewhere.
When cutting across, put your cue ball into the largest section of the triangle as if you were coming into it, makes speed control much easier, rolling long or short is easier to control in a larger area.
Apply for all games,,,rotation straight pool..etc.
Hope all is well with everyone
So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!
So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?
Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control
In the old days, we played straight pool. I was terrible at long shots but I could run 50 - 70 balls regularly in straight pool (on tables with buckets though). In those days, when I played the occasional 9 ball game, I used to play position to leave myself no more than a 6" to two feet from the object ball, just like I did in straight pool - even if that meant a lot of cue ball travel.
As I have played more 9 ball over the years, I've grown accustomed to longer, more difficult shots and leaving myself room for positional error, which usually means longer shots. Buddy Hall hated long shots. If you watch his old tapes, you'll see he leaves himself easy and close in rotation games. Shane and Earl on the other hand, have so much accuracy and stroke, they often leave what I consider to be longer, more difficult shots for themselves that require more stroke.
An excellent shotmaker can take advantage of more opportunities that arise. But if you can't play shape, you will find yourself in many more difficulties as the table progresses.
I think you will find that many players make more positional mistakes that cost them outs than they do missing routine shots. Those players would benefit enormously by working on cue ball control situations, which not only involves feel, but strategy and experience. Beside touch, position play takes thinking, knowledge, patience, risk assessment and planning. These traits are only honed into habit after much practice and competition.
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This thread topic is exactly the reason why ( imho ) busty is not always winning big tournaments...if you watch a lot of his matches, his position play is not as good as it should b especially for his caliber and talent. Even Efren states that Busty can pocket from anywhere but his position play sucks...lol...if he focused more on control, he'd stop getting stuck behind balls or left with awkward shots...
Position player, but ya still have ta' make shots.
The second question asked was what to concentrate on first, shot-making or position play. I am surprised to see so many responses say that position play should be focused on first.
The ability to pocket balls is a testament to consistent fundamentals. If you have inconsistent fundamentals, as players who are learning the game often do, you won't have success at consistent position play. How can you, if you hit the ball a different way every time?
Consistent position play requires consistent sound fundamentals. Ball-pocketing is the first step to get you to that point. Think of it as a prerequisite.
The ability to pocket balls is a testament to consistent fundamentals. If you have inconsistent fundamentals, as players who are learning the game often do, you won't have success at consistent position play. How can you, if you hit the ball a different way every time?
Consistent position play requires consistent sound fundamentals. Ball-pocketing is the first step to get you to that point. Think of it as a prerequisite.
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I am a firm believer there are never any easy shots on a pool table, some just easier than others. Take a look in the mirror and see how many hangers you have missed, simple makeable shots, or ball in hand.
World Champions miss hangers, easy makeable shots and ball in hand, (somebody went brain dead) Fundamental routine errors for most. Every shot deserves the same respect. Pool 101
It's always about the cue ball, pocketing balls is the easy part. When I say easy I mean easy compared to complete knowledge of the cue ball and stroke.
To test yourself go on a table ,shoot 5 racks, shoot shots at random, no position, and see how you pocket balls. This may take 15- 20 min depending upon skill level.
Now if there is a 3 cushion table jump on that. If you don't know the game grab someone who does, if not go it alone. Have them point out shots with 3 or more rails and have at it.
If a 3 cushion table is not available just do it on a pool table. See how many points you score or if you even come remotely close in an hour. Many players, and experience players will be humbled very quickly on the lack of cue ball and stroke knowledge, especially when there is nothing natural and you have to create.
It's all about the cue ball and stroke, the other 15 balls are something you play with while you play pool with the cue ball. They are also colorful and nice and shiney.
World Champions miss hangers, easy makeable shots and ball in hand, (somebody went brain dead) Fundamental routine errors for most. Every shot deserves the same respect. Pool 101
It's always about the cue ball, pocketing balls is the easy part. When I say easy I mean easy compared to complete knowledge of the cue ball and stroke.
To test yourself go on a table ,shoot 5 racks, shoot shots at random, no position, and see how you pocket balls. This may take 15- 20 min depending upon skill level.
Now if there is a 3 cushion table jump on that. If you don't know the game grab someone who does, if not go it alone. Have them point out shots with 3 or more rails and have at it.
If a 3 cushion table is not available just do it on a pool table. See how many points you score or if you even come remotely close in an hour. Many players, and experience players will be humbled very quickly on the lack of cue ball and stroke knowledge, especially when there is nothing natural and you have to create.
It's all about the cue ball and stroke, the other 15 balls are something you play with while you play pool with the cue ball. They are also colorful and nice and shiney.
Totally agree
I started off playing pool 8-9 yrs ago but I started playing banks and kick shots! I got totally serious about the game and I worked on everything but shotmaking! The last couple of years I have been focusing primarily on shotmaking. I wish I did start with the shotmaking but then I wouldn't be as good with banking and kicking! Before I could hit a long straight shot, I could at balls 1-2-3 rails and pick which side of the ball I wanted to hit, and I could
everybody was amazed, the only guy in the room that couldn't make a ball but could kick anything from anywhereAs I've grown in the game, I've learned that I must become a proficient potter! I'm working on it
it's tough because of work schedule! All in all, I'm pretty happy with my current level of play considering my work schedule! How many players out there work 70-80 hrs a week with only a few days off a year that can beat the ghost in 9-ball? although that's nothing great to most, it isn't bad considering my life!Love the game
CJ is the teacher
Precise position play requires a deeper set of aiming skills than simple ball pocketing, but I agree ball pocketing must be pretty good first in order to advance in position play skills.
Often it's the position needed or attempted that makes the shot difficult, not the shot itself.
I agree. The other important thing about being able to pocket balls first is that you need a reference point that you will adjust to account for things like squirt and swerve for position purposes. How can you correct errors without a reference point?
Really now
I watched one of the best money players for decades on the planet give up the 8. Brock monster. His opponent play c- shape every rack. Stepped up and ran 7. Crap position every rack.
For $800 Brock pulled up.
Jimi Matz too just made balls . Earl wanted the 7.
Ball maker. Best way to hide your game.
Nick
I watched one of the best money players for decades on the planet give up the 8. Brock monster. His opponent play c- shape every rack. Stepped up and ran 7. Crap position every rack.
For $800 Brock pulled up.
Jimi Matz too just made balls . Earl wanted the 7.
Ball maker. Best way to hide your game.
Nick
the second question
The second question wasn't asked by the OP so I didn't consider it.
A pool player tends to go through three stages of play:
First they are just trying to pocket balls. They normally don't max out pocketing skills before they discover spin.
Second they discover spin. Yee-haa, ain't I cool! Lookee at that cue ball zing around the table!
Now they are at least trying to play shape on the next ball and they may be starting to see patterns but their skills may still have them at the "C" or low "B" level.
Many never discover the third stage. That is when they really understand angles and playing shape to use angles. Now more than one-half to one tip of side spin is rarely needed and speed control becomes much easier. Patterns become much more refined and position changes from huge zones to tight area or even spot position. With this control of the cue ball shot making is inevitably at a very respectable level although there are always those that never become great shot makers and a gifted few with the eyes of eagles and great hand eye coordination that can make shots reliably enough to try them in competition that others find too low percentage to shoot.
Reaching the third stage reduces the difficulty of play tremendously, perhaps thirty to fifty percent. Learning angles, learning not to crowd the object ball, perhaps most important of all learning to really lay out a pattern before starting, this may be taking your individual game to the highest level.
It is one thing to have a general pattern in mind, quite another to know where you want the cue ball to be for every shot within an area the size of a saucer or smaller before starting an inning. It often doesn't matter if you run this pattern perfectly. By "aiming" small, your position misses tend to be small, so small as to often be immaterial. Instead of having to completely change to a different shot a little more or less speed or spin may be all that is needed to bring you back into line to complete a pattern.
Hu
The second question wasn't asked by the OP so I didn't consider it.
A pool player tends to go through three stages of play:
First they are just trying to pocket balls. They normally don't max out pocketing skills before they discover spin.
Second they discover spin. Yee-haa, ain't I cool! Lookee at that cue ball zing around the table!
Now they are at least trying to play shape on the next ball and they may be starting to see patterns but their skills may still have them at the "C" or low "B" level.
Many never discover the third stage. That is when they really understand angles and playing shape to use angles. Now more than one-half to one tip of side spin is rarely needed and speed control becomes much easier. Patterns become much more refined and position changes from huge zones to tight area or even spot position. With this control of the cue ball shot making is inevitably at a very respectable level although there are always those that never become great shot makers and a gifted few with the eyes of eagles and great hand eye coordination that can make shots reliably enough to try them in competition that others find too low percentage to shoot.
Reaching the third stage reduces the difficulty of play tremendously, perhaps thirty to fifty percent. Learning angles, learning not to crowd the object ball, perhaps most important of all learning to really lay out a pattern before starting, this may be taking your individual game to the highest level.
It is one thing to have a general pattern in mind, quite another to know where you want the cue ball to be for every shot within an area the size of a saucer or smaller before starting an inning. It often doesn't matter if you run this pattern perfectly. By "aiming" small, your position misses tend to be small, so small as to often be immaterial. Instead of having to completely change to a different shot a little more or less speed or spin may be all that is needed to bring you back into line to complete a pattern.
Hu
Amen to that! That's how I try to play. Try to get "there" without having to do too much! I guess in the end, being a consistent player, hopefully I will get there
again, thanks for all the input everyoneA player will never reach what you call the third stage without excellent ball-pocketing skills. You just can't get to that point if you miss a lot. Not going to happen.
Kinda like...
To me part of the shot is getting the cue ball where you want it after you make the intended object ball. But, if you want to separate them then I want to have great cue ball control and I won't have to rely so much on the ability to consistently make hard shots. Great cue ball control gives the shooter the added ability to play a good safety, which the pro's due all the time.
To me part of the shot is getting the cue ball where you want it after you make the intended object ball. But, if you want to separate them then I want to have great cue ball control and I won't have to rely so much on the ability to consistently make hard shots. Great cue ball control gives the shooter the added ability to play a good safety, which the pro's due all the time.