Shot Pictures and Aiming Systems

[Low500]

Easier to see with colored base to either side of the base of the cb than only pure white near cb center.

Hello.
It is fortuitous for me that you're commenting on this. I'm assuming you're an instructor and one who knows what's going on instead of being a no shooting fat belly like some I've seen. I have read some of your stuff before...and I've heard you don't dog it in the clutch. (that is significant to me)
Here we go......
I was reading some comments from Buddy Hall about "not hitting the cue ball where they thought they were hitting it". So I decided to use the 8 ball as a cueball for a few hours to run some drills and see what it was like.
I could definitely see the cueing location on the 8ball using it as a cue ball better than when using the usual solid white cueball.
I realize that could be due to eyesight deficiency because of my aging, but I'd like to hear any of your opinions about this experiment and if others have fooled around with it, just the same.
Thank you for your time.

 

[cookie man]

Seems to me by that logic cueing with the tip at the TOP of the cue ball makes more sense. You really can't see exactly where the cb contacts the cloth but you can see where the highest arc is at the top of the cue ball. Plus, as we were discussing before, some players put the tip on the cloth and off to the side of the ball, not in the middle.

I also don't understand why some kind of parallax would affect the center of the cue ball but not the tip at the cloth. You still have two eyes giving you a slightly different image to create depth perception. Seems like the same difference.

Tip at the top of CB puts the cue in the way of your sight line.
Tip on the cloth and off to the side gives you a clear sight line.

 

[Dan White]

Tip at the top of CB puts the cue in the way of your sight line.
Tip on the cloth and off to the side gives you a clear sight line.

So what is the purpose of putting the tip on the cloth? I'm hearing two things. 1) it gives you a better view of the entire cb so that aiming is improved, and 2) because the tip isn't in the way you can see center ball better because view of the bottom of the cue ball is unobstructed. I think the usefulness of 1) is dubious since you get unobstructed views of the cb while you take a practice stroke. Item 2) is a failure because there is no way to see where the cue ball contacts the cloth. I tried last night and all you can really do is see an arc on the cb at its lowest point from the shooter's perspective. If you look at the top of the cue ball, the view is not obstructed because the tip is not covering the top of the cue ball, of course. I think you could use the top of the cue ball as a reference or the lowest part of the cb that you can see. Either way I'm having trouble believing it makes any difference.

Maybe the pro's are punking us and we computer jockeys are sitting here trying to figure it out. Everybody was debating SVB's stroke awhile back and why he does this and that. Meanwhile SVB said when he was young he saw a Filipino player shoot like that and it looked cool... so he copied it. Same thing with his mind-bending tip aiming method. IMO he just knows where to hit the thing after doing it so many times.

Finally, it seem to me that any possible esoteric benefit that may come from seeing the whole cb or the bottom of the cb is far outweighed by the gross inaccuracy introduced by starting your stroke with the tip on the cloth and actually hitting the ball with some very precise combination of english and follow or draw. They can do it because that is all they do. Why they do it....? Maybe it looks cool.

 

[Laubach.Baguio]

I can't visualize this. Do you have pictures? I know where you should end up (on all systems).

Thanks

Here's my try with youtube. Had to come early before the boys got in. This way I can use the pool table.

https://youtu.be/WWtSHy9iuDM

The last 2 shots , the pocket - obj ball & cue ball are all inline.
Hope you can visualize it.
Thanks

 

[Laubach.Baguio]

Sounds good. You can get Poolology online I think for about $5. You really need to practice your stroke before you go too crazy with aiming systems, though. A good (but boring) drill is to put the cue ball on the head spot. Shoot the ball over the foot spot and into the rail. You want the see if you can get the cue ball to come straight back to your tip. Observe what happens and make changes as necessary. It takes time but drills like this will help you pocket balls better when you go back to practicing cut shots.

BTW, Neils Feijen is one of the best players there is and he only sees through one eye, so you are in good company!

Hi Dan, here's a vid of practicing to get that cue ball come straight back to my cue tip.
https://youtu.be/sj3DxvfALXg

Had to get in early this morning before the boys came in. Otherwise they'd be messing up my vid. hehehe

Here's how I aim with my cue tip
https://youtu.be/WWtSHy9iuDM

Your mentioning Neils Feijen is a great inspiration.

Thanks Dan

( btw, I wasn't imitating Earl with that left arm support. I learned the hard way old geezers like me shouldn't mess with hard punching bags.hehehe)

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Hello.
It is fortuitous for me that you're commenting on this. I'm assuming you're an instructor and one who knows what's going on instead of being a no shooting fat belly like some I've seen. I have read some of your stuff before...and I've heard you don't dog it in the clutch. (that is significant to me)
Here we go......
I was reading some comments from Buddy Hall about "not hitting the cue ball where they thought they were hitting it". So I decided to use the 8 ball as a cueball for a few hours to run some drills and see what it was like.
I could definitely see the cueing location on the 8ball using it as a cue ball better than when using the usual solid white cueball.
I realize that could be due to eyesight deficiency because of my aging, but I'd like to hear any of your opinions about this experiment and if others have fooled around with it, just the same.
Thank you for your time.

Thank you, sincerely. My personal preference is to have players get used to center ball rather than the base of the cue ball. Too many of them fiddle about with the cue to do anything but make a mess of their stroke by cueing at X then stroking at Y.

But your 8-ball cueing was a good idea IMHO. Wipe the chalk off the ball after, of course, to reduce throw. Some people have trouble seeing contact point on 8-balls and 4-balls over a distance to cut, but close up they could be a good aid as you suggest.

One drill is to pick a spot for a red dot cue ball, and with both hands center the red dot as carefully as possible. Then assume the stance while looking at anything but the cue ball. Close your eyes or look across the table. Did your cue tip wind up near center ball or dead upon it?

I have a student who became a good friend after our lessons--he was desperate to get into the skills sets he'd lost when we'd first started. He was strong as a young player but hadn't really touched a cue in years. I gave him some practice drills, and he assumed his stance over and over again for an hour on his own, in the hotel room he took while we did a week of lessons together, and then he was right on his center ball or whatever spot going forward and his confidence and shot making soared. It really helped the rest of the week proceed nicely.

 

[Low500]

One drill is to pick a spot for a red dot cue ball, and with both hands center the red dot as carefully as possible. Then assume the stance while looking at anything but the cue ball. Close your eyes or look across the table. Did your cue tip wind up near center ball or dead upon it?
I have a student who became a good friend after our lessons--he was desperate to get into the skills sets he'd lost when we'd first started. He was strong as a young player but hadn't really touched a cue in years. I gave him some practice drills, and he assumed his stance over and over again for an hour on his own, in the hotel room he took while we did a week of lessons together, and then he was right on his center ball or whatever spot going forward and his confidence and shot making soared. It really helped the rest of the week proceed nicely.

I must be the worst player in the world.
I did what you said....I looked off toward the wall, put my hand down on the table where I 'guessed' (not looking at it it like you said) was inline and I must have been a foot away from the cue ball to one side or the other.
I did this for maybe 30-40 times and never got even close to the cueball.
However when I looked at the cueball, got down, lined up, and then looked away and looked back again, I was dead center on that red dot.
I guess I am hopelessly doomed.
:shrug::shrug::shrug::thud:

 

[Dan White]

Thank you, sincerely. My personal preference is to have players get used to center ball rather than the base of the cue ball. Too many of them fiddle about with the cue to do anything but make a mess of their stroke by cueing at X then stroking at Y.

That's why I think this discussion is mostly for "academic interest." No amateur in their right mind should ever consider doing something like this, IMO.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I must be the worst player in the world.
I did what you said....I looked off toward the wall, put my hand down on the table where I 'guessed' (not looking at it it like you said) was inline and I must have been a foot away from the cue ball to one side or the other.
I did this for maybe 30-40 times and never got even close to the cueball.
However when I looked at the cueball, got down, lined up, and then looked away and looked back again, I was dead center on that red dot.
I guess I am hopelessly doomed.
:shrug::shrug::shrug::thud:

Sounds like it's time for a free lesson from me. I have my suspicions on this one and we'll fix the routine of how you assume the stance.

 

[Low500]

Sounds like it's time for a free lesson from me. I have my suspicions on this one and we'll fix the routine of how you assume the stance.

Don't get all bent out of shape at these comments.
I want to see, with my own eyes, you or anyone else walk up to a pool table, look off at the wall and without looking at the table or cueball put their bridge hand in perfect position for a center ball hit or any other kind of hit on that cueball.
I've watched the best for over 60 years, and they all look down at the location on the table to place their bridge hand. Now whether or not it's placed accurately on the shot line is a different story entirely.
But looking off at the wall?????????
Come on man, I'm not buying into that one.
Please show a video of you demonstrating this magic....I'm all in for that..
Again...please remain calm and don't get bent over my skepticism. I'm not 'calling you out' or attempting to have you exposed to ridicule from some of the goofus types in these forums....(I could care less what they think about most anything).
:thumbup:

 

[Laubach.Baguio]

Sounds like it's time for a free lesson from me. I have my suspicions on this one and we'll fix the routine of how you assume the stance.

Hi Matt, I've been following your informative articles on Thoughtdotcom. Your advice about "consistency" in stance,etc. really taught me a lot. Now, I'm reading up " How Pros Really Aim In Billiards " .. Thanks

 

[Dan White]

Sounds like it's time for a free lesson from me. I have my suspicions on this one and we'll fix the routine of how you assume the stance.

If you read recent posts to you in this thread you'll see the kind of mentality we've had to deal with. :banghead:

 

[Dan White]

Hi Dan, here's a vid of practicing to get that cue ball come straight back to my cue tip.
https://youtu.be/sj3DxvfALXg

Had to get in early this morning before the boys came in. Otherwise they'd be messing up my vid. hehehe

Here's how I aim with my cue tip
https://youtu.be/WWtSHy9iuDM

Your mentioning Neils Feijen is a great inspiration.

Thanks Dan

( btw, I wasn't imitating Earl with that left arm support. I learned the hard way old geezers like me shouldn't mess with hard punching bags.hehehe)

Fantastic! It's great to see people take enough interest to video themselves. It's a great way to improve quickly. Your aiming method is exactly what I thought you were doing. Keep doing it and eventually you won't need to use the cue anymore. Two more comments:

1. When you do the cue ball up and back drill pay careful attention to how you are stroking the cue. For instance, you had one shot where the ball had a lot of english on it. Do you know what you did differently there? It might just have been a little push from your index finger. It isn't always easy to know what you did wrong, but as long as you are working on having a good stroke you will improve.

2. When you get ready to hit the cue ball, your tip is about an inch away from the cue ball when you are aiming and doing a practice stroke. Eventually you want that tip to nearly touch the cue ball so that you can be more precise on where you actually hit it. I would try to get the tip within a quarter inch of the cue ball. You can video yourself to see.

Last thing, don't rush the stroke. Take your time on the back swing and transition from back swing to forward motion slowly. Don't jerk the cue back and forth.

From what I can see of your stroke, it looks pretty good!

 

[Laubach.Baguio]

Fantastic! It's great to see people take enough interest to video themselves. It's a great way to improve quickly. Your aiming method is exactly what I thought you were doing. Keep doing it and eventually you won't need to use the cue anymore. Two more comments:

1. When you do the cue ball up and back drill pay careful attention to how you are stroking the cue. For instance, you had one shot where the ball had a lot of english on it. Do you know what you did differently there? It might just have been a little push from your index finger. It isn't always easy to know what you did wrong, but as long as you are working on having a good stroke you will improve.

2. When you get ready to hit the cue ball, your tip is about an inch away from the cue ball when you are aiming and doing a practice stroke. Eventually you want that tip to nearly touch the cue ball so that you can be more precise on where you actually hit it. I would try to get the tip within a quarter inch of the cue ball. You can video yourself to see.

Last thing, don't rush the stroke. Take your time on the back swing and transition from back swing to forward motion slowly. Don't jerk the cue back and forth.

From what I can see of your stroke, it looks pretty good!

Hey Dan, cool advice. will do.

I'll check that "english" without a push with index finger. Or if I understood you correctly, it is more being aware of hitting at the center of the cue ball.

Practice aiming/practicing with the tip a quarter inch or closer to the cue ball.
I can see your point in closing in, it does improve hitting where I want to on the cue ball.

I musn't rush my stroke. Take my time during my back swing, do a relaxed forward motion .
I'll eliminate that jerking the cue back and forth.
(I'll vid my movements to check if I;m doing it right.)

Really appreciate it Dan, Thanks.

 

[Dan White]

I'll check that "english" without a push with index finger. Or if I understood you correctly, it is more being aware of hitting at the center of the cue ball.

There are many things that could cause you to stroke or aim off line. The finger was just an example of that. I wasn't suggesting that your index finger actually was the cause of any misses. The trick is to do enough repetitions without distractions. Don't pay attention to the TV or the other geezers :wink:. Pay attention to what your stroke is doing. Every once in awhile you will hit one perfectly. Remember what you did differently that time, if possible, and just keep observing. Maybe do this exercise for 10 or 15 minutes a day for a couple of weeks. It isn't glamorous but it will sharpen your precision.

 

[LAMas]

Thanks Dan. I'll check it out.
Yes, a newbie. I just started pool last Feb. I'm 73y/o blind left eye.
What I was first taught was to sight with my cue the line from the object ball to the target pocket. Then, with the cue still on the table, tip pointing to the obj ball, to move it in line with cue ball...... Thanks

Laubach,
Hi.
Thanks for your interest in the various recommendations offered by several poster/instructors - it's all good. I used to shoot an instructor that was blind in one eye so he had but one vision center. He shot with the good eye directly over his stick for a precise alignment of his stick over the aim/shot line. Another very good shooter used to close his left eye while aiming with his right eye over his stick..

I used to look at shooters directly behind the OB to see where his cue tip was aimed and very often I could see that it was off center even though he said that to him, it was centered. I noticed that their vision center was not precise or that the good aiming eye was not directly over the cue - with the bad eye blind or shut.

When I noticed this, I would tell the shooter to center his stick by placing the tip where the bottom of the CB touched the cloth. Then to raise the tip vertically to the center of the CB (and take a visual picture). This was easier than looking at the center of the white surface surrounding the center of the CB. To place the tip at the very top of the CB is void of a tangent point (above the center CB) to a parallel line above the table as there is with the bottom of the CB where it touched the table.

Early on, I would wrap a piece if tape 1/2 the diameter of the CB, place the tip at the equator of the OB, on the COB to the target line, then notice where the edge of the tape was on the cloth and pull the stick back to where the edge of the tape was and then pivot at the tip on the table from there until the butt end of the stick was above the center of the CB - shot line.

But this is just me.

I hope this helps.

 

[Low500]

CTE Aiming might solve some of your 'troubles'

Here's my try with youtube. Had to come early before the boys got in. This way I can use the pool table.
https://youtu.be/WWtSHy9iuDM
The last 2 shots , the pocket - obj ball & cue ball are all inline.
Hope you can visualize it.
Thanks

Hello there.
I watched the videos.
You're not all that fouled up....better than most 70 year olds I'd venture to say.
You might try out the CTE Aiming System by Stan Shuffett which you can find out a lot about on youtube. I think once you get into precision no-guesswork aiming using the CTE method, you're going to find out that a lot of the stuff you think is causing you trouble, isn't the root of the problem.
Check it out. You'll be glad you did. Won't cost you any money and if you find out you don't like it you can always go back to your old way.
Keep on punchin'
:thumbup:

 

[greyghost]

I haven’t been though this whole thing but just personally responding to the original questions posed by dan....

Simply put I believe the alignment process and what it can or does entail is where the most important foundations of aiming occur....but often overlooked for the end. Alignment is the closest answer we will ever get to where exactly the backs of our cues are located.

I’d alignment is correct everything the arm does and eyes see matches up....

Wrist twists, swoops and etal are generally occurring imop due to bad alignment not that folks have broken arms and hands. Even when they do get aligned one still has to get down and hold it on that same line....the rest fail here too. The players who prescribe to both successfully are your top players everywhere.

Of course exceptions can be made because officially one can learn to do everything totally unorthodox I suppose just so to say nah nah boo boo I guess lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Don't get all bent out of shape at these comments.
I want to see, with my own eyes, you or anyone else walk up to a pool table, look off at the wall and without looking at the table or cueball put their bridge hand in perfect position for a center ball hit or any other kind of hit on that cueball.
I've watched the best for over 60 years, and they all look down at the location on the table to place their bridge hand. Now whether or not it's placed accurately on the shot line is a different story entirely.
But looking off at the wall?????????
Come on man, I'm not buying into that one.
Please show a video of you demonstrating this magic....I'm all in for that..
Again...please remain calm and don't get bent over my skepticism. I'm not 'calling you out' or attempting to have you exposed to ridicule from some of the goofus types in these forums....(I could care less what they think about most anything).
:thumbup:

It's okay. I enjoy tinkering with ideas with forum contributors.

I am happy to explain, if you bear in mind the below is a practice drill and not a shot routine or the way I always assume my stance. After all, we can practice shooting with eyes closed and can practice assuming the stance that way also.

1) Stand with your chin/navel/sternum on the shot line and the body perpendicular to the shot line (square). Close your eyes.

2) Have your chin come straight down as you step into the stance, hips clearing the line for the cue stick.

3) The bridge hand as it holds the cue comes straight under the chin (easy with proprioception/sensing the hand's position).

4) If your feet were the correct distance from the table, you are not only on the shot line, you are correctly cued with a short tip gap.

Realize three keys here IMHO:

a) The pro looks at the cue ball but could do it eyes closed and they'll be far more on line than a typical amateur

b) When our stance is good enough to nail it every time, our shot making percentage soars

c) Amateurs IMHO fiddle WAY too much with the stick after assuming the stance because they're off in stance position--in your many years of watching the greats, have you ever once seen a pro (who wasn't hustling!) fiddle about after they're in the stance to slide their cue this way and that? Never.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Hi Matt, I've been following your informative articles on Thoughtdotcom. Your advice about "consistency" in stance,etc. really taught me a lot. Now, I'm reading up " How Pros Really Aim In Billiards " .. Thanks

That is kind. I'm as close as a PM if you need extra advice or help.