Should Corey be punished in RENO for being smart.
- Thread starter SUPERSTAR
- Start date
The Saw said:
Can't you ask Corey if he would like to play rotation for a big amoung $$$ on TAR, against a Filipino? It doesn't even have to be against Efren. He can play Ronato Alcano, I am pretty sure he would step up and play CD...
It is my opinion that all the Money Matches should be 'ALL BALL Fouls' and a referee be present at each table and racking for each game.
If I am not mistaken, the rules at the Reno event were modified Texas Express. Does anyone know for sure?
And, the 2 ball was to be placed in the 4th row.
Anyone posting attend the Players meeting?
If I am not mistaken, the rules at the Reno event were modified Texas Express. Does anyone know for sure?
And, the 2 ball was to be placed in the 4th row.
Anyone posting attend the Players meeting?
corey shouldnt be punished for playing within the rules and winning. It reminds me of the local bangers who wont play anyone who plays safties cause they wanna be "outshot".
A few points:
- People keep saying that hard break makes the game exciting and Corey's break makes the game boring. Of course, you are correct.... about what YOU think is exciting. However, not everyone has the same tastes. I like hard breaks but I also like variety, which can mean some soft breaks too. Corey is bringing a NEW STYLE to the game with his innovative breaks. I think there's enough room in the sport to let people have their own style. It makes the sport more interesting when you don't smother the creativity and force everyone to play the game the same way.
I support making sure that no funny business is going on with the rack, but if someone can come up with a unique break on a legitimate rack, I would argue that that is interesting, and thus entertaining and GOOD for the sport.
- There is a difference between pattern racking and pattern breaking, if you will. Pattern racking isn't allowed, but unfortunately a good way to enforce the rule has not been implemented when one of the contestants is doing the racking. (You can pattern rack AGAINST your opponent too, so this aspect of the argument against rack-your-own is moot.)
Keep that separate from pattern breaking though. By this I mean, choosing your break based on how the balls are already racked. I wasn't there watching Corey in Reno so I can't comment, but if you watched him on the stream of the Million Dollar Shootout, that's what he did. Corey was given a random rack (by a 3rd party racker) and he was breaking a different way each time based on where the balls had been placed in the rack. Sometimes he broke really soft, other times only sort of soft, trying to make the 1 in the side each time and play position for where ever the 2 ball was likely to go. In my opinion, it made Corey's match one of the most interesting matches to watch.
- Some are assuming that Corey is intentionally leaving gaps in the rack, and they are basing their argument against rack-your-own on this assumption. On what is this assumption based? I have never looked at one of Corey's racks, so I won't claim to know. But I don't think it's fair to assume he is intentionally putting gaps in the rack unless you have looked at his rack, or unless you really know what certain gaps will cause the balls to do.
Not everyone who is for rack-your-own is intentionally putting gaps in the rack. Most of us just want a TIGHT rack, with as few gaps as possible. If you can get a perfect rack in 9-ball, you really don't need gaps.
- The best solution is 10-ball with tapped racks. It gives a consistently tight rack without the automatic wing ball. Then it doesn't matter who racks the balls. If enough refs aren't available to rack every rack, there would be no concern because the resulting racks would be 100% perfect automatically.
- People keep saying that hard break makes the game exciting and Corey's break makes the game boring. Of course, you are correct.... about what YOU think is exciting. However, not everyone has the same tastes. I like hard breaks but I also like variety, which can mean some soft breaks too. Corey is bringing a NEW STYLE to the game with his innovative breaks. I think there's enough room in the sport to let people have their own style. It makes the sport more interesting when you don't smother the creativity and force everyone to play the game the same way.
I support making sure that no funny business is going on with the rack, but if someone can come up with a unique break on a legitimate rack, I would argue that that is interesting, and thus entertaining and GOOD for the sport.
- There is a difference between pattern racking and pattern breaking, if you will. Pattern racking isn't allowed, but unfortunately a good way to enforce the rule has not been implemented when one of the contestants is doing the racking. (You can pattern rack AGAINST your opponent too, so this aspect of the argument against rack-your-own is moot.)
Keep that separate from pattern breaking though. By this I mean, choosing your break based on how the balls are already racked. I wasn't there watching Corey in Reno so I can't comment, but if you watched him on the stream of the Million Dollar Shootout, that's what he did. Corey was given a random rack (by a 3rd party racker) and he was breaking a different way each time based on where the balls had been placed in the rack. Sometimes he broke really soft, other times only sort of soft, trying to make the 1 in the side each time and play position for where ever the 2 ball was likely to go. In my opinion, it made Corey's match one of the most interesting matches to watch.
- Some are assuming that Corey is intentionally leaving gaps in the rack, and they are basing their argument against rack-your-own on this assumption. On what is this assumption based? I have never looked at one of Corey's racks, so I won't claim to know. But I don't think it's fair to assume he is intentionally putting gaps in the rack unless you have looked at his rack, or unless you really know what certain gaps will cause the balls to do.
Not everyone who is for rack-your-own is intentionally putting gaps in the rack. Most of us just want a TIGHT rack, with as few gaps as possible. If you can get a perfect rack in 9-ball, you really don't need gaps.
- The best solution is 10-ball with tapped racks. It gives a consistently tight rack without the automatic wing ball. Then it doesn't matter who racks the balls. If enough refs aren't available to rack every rack, there would be no concern because the resulting racks would be 100% perfect automatically.
I get tired of hearing other "pro" players complaining about Corey's soft or controlled break. This man has put in countless hours practicing and studying to learn the best way to make a ball and get shape on the one ball. It is something I also have been working on for the past 2-3 years so IO know the work that has been put in by Corey.
Players like Stevie need to shut up and learn something other than smash and hope on the break. It is totally unfair to start whining during a professional match just to shark your opponent.
Players like Stevie need to shut up and learn something other than smash and hope on the break. It is totally unfair to start whining during a professional match just to shark your opponent.
This break thing isnt even a arguement to me, games change as people get better thats the way it goes.. Is the pga going to tell Tiger you cant hit that 2 iron stinger shot because knowbody else can. Should we go back and take the forward pass out of football, not every body can throw like Elway, I guess they should have just made Jordan stop playing period..
Telling players you have to break hard is way more unfair then Corey taking the time to master his own break as a matter of fact there is nothing unfair about him doing that.
And what is hard, if I can break in the high 20's low 30's and you cant well, I guess I win, you cant break hard..
Whats up with this 3 balls past the head string; With his monster break I guess Reyes wouldnt even need to go to the tourny. I just saw a match the other day two balls hit each other at the line one stayed in one stayed out so the other guy got ball in hand thats B.S. like you have control over where the balls are going..
And rack your own, There is no reason for that (except fights). But have know doubt if I new I was going to play in a tourny that was rack my own, I would be showing up with exactly that "my own rack" and the 2 ball would not be in the back of the pile.
Telling players you have to break hard is way more unfair then Corey taking the time to master his own break as a matter of fact there is nothing unfair about him doing that.
And what is hard, if I can break in the high 20's low 30's and you cant well, I guess I win, you cant break hard..
Whats up with this 3 balls past the head string; With his monster break I guess Reyes wouldnt even need to go to the tourny. I just saw a match the other day two balls hit each other at the line one stayed in one stayed out so the other guy got ball in hand thats B.S. like you have control over where the balls are going..
And rack your own, There is no reason for that (except fights). But have know doubt if I new I was going to play in a tourny that was rack my own, I would be showing up with exactly that "my own rack" and the 2 ball would not be in the back of the pile.
deadstroke said:
A quick glance through the thread suggests your question hasn't yet been answered. Presumably you are thinking of "Keno". A simple search should throw up any available rule sets......but Bucktooth might give you 'free' rules tuition at the DCC. If he tries to charge you for the rules info, offer to toss a coin double or quits for his fees and you'll hear no more about it
Re the racking discussion, as Hu and others have stated, as far as the rules go it's quite clear....if the balls are intentionally repeatedly placed by the same player in the same pattern in the rack it is no longer 'random' and therefore it is both against the (WPA) rules and cheating. If the balls are not racked tightly it is also against the rules and if that has been done intentionally it is cheating. What the breaker does after transgressing the racking rules in that way, ie whether he 'soft' breaks or whether he smashes them up thunderously, is really neither here nor there.
When it boils down to it reasonable criticism of any player in this respect is almost entirely dependent upon whether he is intentionally not racking the balls in random patterns or intentionally leaving spaces between balls. If he is doing either of those things intentionally and repeatedly, criticism is wholly justified as would probably be allegations of cheating. If on the other hand he is genuinely racking randomly and tightly and simply skilfully employing a particular style of break which meets all the applicable rules then no criticism at all is reasonable. It really is that simple.
Those in this thread who seem to be supporting a players right to learn how to repeatedly rack them up in similar specific (ie not 'random') ball patterns and to then learn how to break in a manner best suited to gain advantage from those intentionally arranged rack ball patterns, especially those who also seem to be suggesting that such rack cheating by your opponent should be countered by putting in more time practising how to rack cheat similarly yourself, are hopefully being more tongue-in-cheek than serious because that is patently an absurd line of argument.
Pointing out in a civil manner that your opponent is clearly and intentionally not racking randomly or tightly (assuming he is actually doing one or both of those things) isn't some kind of disreputable 'sharking'. It is an inherently reasonable thing to do, in exactly the same way as it would be reasonable to complain if the opponent was intentionally breaking any other rule to gain an advantage.
If he isn't doing either of those things intentionally any related complaints are whining or sharking. As at least one other poster has mentioned it has been historically difficult to find a wholly reliable way of determining who is throwing the balls into the rack randomly and who isn't and I don't see that changing much unless the powers that be decide to one day go down the route of having a set rack position for every ball, probably another very unlikely contingency though
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Stevie played Bartrum on TAR a while ago. I know that the 10-ball rack is harder to manipulate, but I specifically remember that he racked the balls in the same order every time. Every break, he had the 9-ball going toward the side pocket and the 1-ball toward the top corner pocket. I am not saying that he was purposely trying to manipulate the rack, but he had similar layouts on most racks. He knows how to manipulate a rack as well. I think 10-ball will have some issues with the rack as well. Someone will find a way to manipulate the rack in their favor.
With that being said I think Stevie and Corey were both doing everything with in their power and within the rules to win. I think both of them are stellar guys and were just competing at their best.
With that being said I think Stevie and Corey were both doing everything with in their power and within the rules to win. I think both of them are stellar guys and were just competing at their best.
I wasn't in Reno but had two friends that were...They said Stevie was complaining about everyone's rack he played..He always complains about his opponet's racks....I really think in that case it is a sharking move...At least my friend's thought so.....
ShootingArts said:
I agree with all of this, and I'd add this:
Corey obviously knows that his unusual racking/breaking style gets on other players' nerves, and he obviously knows that will be to his advantage when it happens, and he obviously capitalizes on it when it does happen. In other words, Corey's rack/break is both within the rules and a move.
I don't hold that against him; the "psychological game" is part of every competition, not just pool (and it's a part I frankly like). And no offense to Corey, but I'd say Stevie just put a little of his own sauce back on him, as he should. Kudos to both of them - Stevie just got the best of it this time.
pj
chgo
if corey knows more than you about the rack or soft break take it like a man and let him play. when everyone breaks hard and he cant does he cry to the td and tell them they cant break so hard.
when i played steve 10 ball rack your own he outbroke me 10 to 1 all i did is played if this went the other way im sure he would have tried to do something