Should Corey be punished in RENO for being smart.

Tom In Cincy said:
It is too bad that someone hasn't replied to this post stating exactly what was said by Cory's opponent to the TD/Ref about the rack or soft break.

I would suspect that the opponent complained about the rack rigging. Same balls in the same place each rack. That is against the rules and a re-rack is done.
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Here it is from earlier where I answered that question...
Poolplaya9 said:
<snip>Stevie repeatedly claimed that there was a 1/4" gap between two of the balls, and Corey repeatedly claimed that there was no gap. Stevie's only complaint was about the tightness of the rack, nothing about rack placement or ball arrangement.
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Unless there was something said quietly to the referee that I missed (the whole discussion was pretty loud though so I'm thinking that I didn't miss anything), the repeated references from Stevie were about gaps between balls, specifically one gap between two of the balls. He said nothing about the rack placement, or rack straightness, or about the randomness of the ball placements, or any other complaint about the rack. The only other thing he said in reference to the rack was "I want to be outplayed, not outracked," but this was in reference to the perceived gap between two of the balls (that the neutral racker didn't see either).

I don't recall Stevie ever specifically saying anything about the soft break, although it is possible that was the real issue and he just had to use a different angle since complaining about the legal break was not going to do any good.
 
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Thanks for the follow up and quotes from the posters. This is good.

Players have the right to ask for a re-rack anytime they don't like the way the rack looks to them or have a ref rack for each player for the remainder of the the match. This doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

Is this a disruption to the match? yes
Is it acceptable under the rules? yes
Was Corey sharked? maybe, but only Corey knows for sure, everyone else is guessing.
Did Stevie do this intentionally? sure he did, it is within the rules.
Did Stevie do this to get under Corey's skin and shark him? According to a lot of posters that are just guessing, YES.



Poolplaya9 said:
Here it is from earlier where I answered that question...

Unless there was something said quietly to the referee that I missed (the whole discussion was pretty loud though so I'm thinking that I didn't miss anything), the repeated references from Stevie were about gaps between balls, specifically one gap between two of the balls. He said nothing about the rack placement, or rack straightness, or about the randomness of the ball placements, or any other complaint about the rack. The only other thing he said in reference to the rack was "I want to be outplayed, not outracked," but this was in reference to the perceived gap between two of the balls (that the neutral racker didn't see either).

I don't recall Stevie ever specifically saying anything about the soft break, although it is possible that was the real issue and he just had to use a different angle since complaining about the legal break was not going to do any good.
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Poolplaya9 said:
Unless there was something said quietly to the referee that I missed (the whole discussion was pretty loud though so I'm thinking that I didn't miss anything), the repeated references from Stevie were about gaps between balls, specifically one gap between two of the balls. He said nothing about the rack placement, or rack straightness, or about the randomness of the ball placements, or any other complaint about the rack. The only other thing he said in reference to the rack was "I want to be outplayed, not outracked," but this was in reference to the perceived gap between two of the balls (that the neutral racker didn't see either).

I don't recall Stevie ever specifically saying anything about the soft break, although it is possible that was the real issue and he just had to use a different angle since complaining about the legal break was not going to do any good.
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Well, considering that it was said that he complained about everyones racks.
Is that to suggest that he is the only pool player alive that knows how to rack the balls in proper fashion?
According to him, yes.

It was a move plain and simple cause basically, he can't deal when someone hits the balls like mary poppins, makes a ball, knows where all the balls end up, and runs out.:D

He needs to stop whining.

GUARANTEED if the soft break/rack position didn't work in Corey's favor and he wasted a couple of break to Stevie's advantage, Stevie wouldn't have said SQUAT!
 
firehawk062 said:
SUPERSTAR seems to me that you are a Corey "flag waver" and you just have a personal problem with Stevie. Just an observation.
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I find it interesting that Stevie has started arguments during the course of a match with not one, but two friends of mine.
One where he was very belligerent where witnesses say he was completely out of line.

Sorry, but if something happens to my friends, i have a tendency to want to get to the bottom of it to find out the truth.
That's why the forums come into play, so the issue can be addressed by witnesses who were there so that a generalized picture of the truth can take shape.

Sorry if Stevie happens to be at the center of the controversy.

Maybe he could do things in the future to not draw so much attention to himself in such a childish way at professional venues.

If people don't want people to criticize them, they need to stop making headlines for their behavior.

But if someone is involved in a controversy that interests me, i'm going to bring it up till i get the answers that i want.
 
I am still wondering, was Stevie making the wing ball? If not, someone needs to buy him a copy of Joe T's book.

Everyone who is paranoid about "rack mechanics" in rack-your-own needs to buy that. Then you'll realize why the 9-ball rack is inherently flawed because the wing ball is automatic when the right balls are frozen. Note, NOT GAPPED..... FROZEN! I'm sorry, you are not a rack mechanic for freezing balls in a rack. A tight rack is supposed to be your right.

I feel bad for these pros who are stuck playing 9-ball with that stupid flawed diamond-shaped rack. I don't understand why the big events are still 9-ball. Let them play 10-ball and bury the wing ball issue for good.
 
Lets talk about the intent of the rack rules.

Is the intent to have a random disbursement, or is the intent to just ensure that each player gets exactly the same rack and can manipulate it with his skill as he is able?

If the intent is random disbursement then a rack should be by neutral party, confirmed by 2nd neutral party and the players should not be allowed to approach the rack to verify any small gaps etc.

Again, I dont know the intent, but the above would give you much better "randomness".
 
Phidget said:
Lets talk about the intent of the rack rules.

Is the intent to have a random disbursement, or is the intent to just ensure that each player gets exactly the same rack and can manipulate it with his skill as he is able?

If the intent is random disbursement then a rack should be by neutral party, confirmed by 2nd neutral party and the players should not be allowed to approach the rack to verify any small gaps etc.

Again, I dont know the intent, but the above would give you much better "randomness".
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That's a great question. WPA rules don't really talk about the intent. I don't know what the rule authors had in mind, but my take is that the intent is to ideally have all of the balls frozen to every adjacent ball, a 100% perfectly frozen rack if possible to achieve within a practical amount of time racking.

Of course, that's rarely possible without a tapped rack, and when it IS tapped, everyone's making the wing ball 99% of the time. It's a catch 22.

Here's a good article that Jerry Forsyth wrote about this:

9 Ball - A Funeral Whose Time Has Come
 
Corey's soft break and rack pattern

I watched the entire match. Corey surged ahead 3-0 using his breaking skills and running out perfectly. I knew that Moore couldn't keep quiet.
He started complaining that he was being "outracked" and not "outplayed".
Ran to get a TD to check the rack who subsequently racked for both players. Of course Corey became agitated, and challenged the racker to give him a better rack than when he racked his own. After much rack adjustment, Corey broke and the corner ball still went into the corner pocket just like before. Breaking that soft meant that he could control the cue ball as well as the 1 & 2 balls and he was off and running.

When Stevie Moore broke his cue ball went all over the table plus the corner ball would rattle or outright miss going into the corner pocket.
IMO it was the not the pattern racking but the speed of the break that was making the corner ball each time. I must assume that Corey also racks the balls consistently the same. Opponents and TD's checked his rack over several matches and it was ok to break.
Heard that Corey had a 7 pack in one match. Must of been using his breaking/rack skills to the max.
Corey seemed to lose focus and lost the match to Moore.

Corey did not violate any rules in the Reno Open. His consistent results we a product of finding the "sweet spot" to break from and more importantly the right speed to break.
Top players like Archer, Strickland have run mutiple racks using their own breaking technique. But I guarantee that they were able to control whitey and have a good shot on the 1st ball.
IMO that is just what Corey is doing as well. All of the pros are capable of running out from just about anywhere if they have a good shot after the break. But it all starts by making a ball and positioning the cue ball.

Corey is a threat to win any tournament he joins. Archer by contrast is a dominating player using a big, hard breaking style.
It seems to me that its popular to blame soft breaking and pattern racking than overall skill and table management.
 
oncue4u said:
I watched the entire match. Corey surged ahead 3-0 using his breaking skills and running out perfectly. I knew that Moore couldn't keep quiet.
He started complaining that he was being "outracked" and not "outplayed".
Ran to get a TD to check the rack who subsequently racked for both players.
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And people wonder why he get criticized.
If someone is running out on you, stop whining, sit your ass down and take it like a man.
 
real bartram said:
true thats what i do.
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For real.
I've lost matches where i lost the lag and got the DONUT, never got a shot and did not get out of my chair except to rack.

What do people think, that your opponent is supposed to miss to give you a shot?
They need to get a grip, or choose another job.

I didn't whine. I was actually kind of impressed.
Only _________ (<---insert your own word) get all bent out of shape and start trouble cause they are getting pounded.
 
I hate to use the phrase, but it couldn't be more appropriate:

"Don't hate the playa, hate the game."

It seems obvious to me that the problem is the game itself. The 9-ball rack is flawed, whether it's rack-your-own, racking for the other guy or an independent racker - the rack is the problem.

I don't see much too difficulty in switching to 10-ball.

Failing that, give snooker a try. The better players usually win, there are no problems with the rack, I'm telling you, you would love it.
 
It seems the era of Ten Ball is upon us, and for good reason. I'm all for that, just to save all the headaches involved when racking for 9-Ball. There is, and always has been an alternative though, which I've seen it done successfully a few times. Put the tournament on tough 4" pockets and all of a sudden balls aren't flying in on every break shot. And the run outs get a lot more challenging as well.

They have been doing this for a few years now in the WPC on some pretty tough Metro tables and it definitely separates the pretenders from the contenders. They weren't 4" pockets, but pretty tight nonetheless, with stiff rails that would reject any ball that touched a rail before reaching the pocket. And that's the way top level pool should be contested. I watched some of the recent Mosconi Cup and that table was way too forgiving for such high caliber competition.
 
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SUPERSTAR said:
And people wonder why he get criticized.
If someone is running out on you, stop whining, sit your ass down and take it like a man.
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So rack-rigging is ok with you? 10 ball takes that crap out of the game...and the best player will win.
 
Jadssons said:
So rack-rigging is ok with you? 10 ball takes that crap out of the game...and the best player will win.
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Well, lets look at this for a sec.

When i used to play, and i couldn't make a ball on the break, but my opponent would, what did i do?
I'd go move the cue ball to where HE was breaking it from, and start to break from there to see if my break results were any better.
Any pool player who is stubborn enough to NOT do this once the sweet spot is found when failing on the break is an idiot IMO.

9ball used to be about finding the sweet spot on the break, or the speed it took to pocket balls, and exploiting it so that you could run racks.

I in fact, practiced the very thing you mention, racking the balls in a specific numbered order or "rigging" WITH Corey WHO KNOWS how many years ago.

So to me it's not that big of a deal, despite the fact that i don't ever use it and basically forgot everything anyway.


BUT, if i had never done that and was playing in a big event in a rack your own tournament, and someone came along, and racked them the same way, and had the same impressive results, I would not complain.
What i WOULD do though is i'd be back at the pool room as soon as i had a chance, and I'd be practicing that very thing, hoping to use it to my advantage in the future.
I agree with you that 10ball would eliminate this problem, but what would YOU do?
Would you go and practice something that might help you win and try to better your game, or would you get all bent out of shape and complain about it cause they were pounding you with it?
 
One time I asked Corey to show me a medium speed 9ball break to keep from turning the cue ball loose. That turned into a 3-1/2 hour lesson on the rack and breaking the balls, 9ball-10ball-full rack. Someone started snooping in on what we were doing and Corey stopped. He told me in 3 or 4 lessons just like that one he could teach me everything he knew about the rack/break. AND THAT WAS 8+ YEARS AGO! He created the soft break around that same time and has learned alot more since then. So he now has probably 2 full days of stuff to teach about the rack and break. How many pros have 2 hours worth of lesson material to teach about the rack/break much less 2 full days?

Corey used to have one of the best hard breaks I have ever seen and IMO these guys that are giving him grief about breaking are really f'ing up.... They're going to make him mad enough to perfect his hard break again and then between the hard break and soft break they're going to really fade some heat.
 
The Saw said:
One time I asked Corey to show me a medium speed 9ball break to keep from turning the cue ball loose. That turned into a 3-1/2 hour lesson on the rack and breaking the balls, 9ball-10ball-full rack. Someone started snooping in on what we were doing and Corey stopped. He told me in 3 or 4 lessons just like that one he could teach me everything he knew about the rack/break. AND THAT WAS 8+ YEARS AGO! He created the soft break around that same time and has learned alot more since then. So he now has probably 2 full days of stuff to teach about the rack and break. How many pros have 2 hours worth of lesson material to teach about the rack/break much less 2 full days?

Corey used to have one of the best hard breaks I have ever seen and IMO these guys that are giving him grief about breaking are really f'ing up.... They're going to make him mad enough to perfect his hard break again and then between the hard break and soft break they're going to really fade some heat.
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Corey is one smart cookie. He has some serious skills, and the absolute sickest draw stroke ever!
Anyways, I watched him very close at a pro event in Melbourne. He ran the exact same last 4 balls into the same pockets from almost the same exact position for the last 3-4 games; that was not coincidental. That is only after I began to notice the pattern. No telling how long was doing it before I picked up on it.
 
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