Should Cuemakers Mark Pivot Lengths On Their Shafts?

[Blue Hog ridr]

Something subtle like a Black Dot perhaps.
Notches with a buck knife = not good.

Cue makers have enuff to do without putting marks on a shaft for you.

Lots of players don't maintain their equipment, they let the shafts get dirty.
How would you see small subtle marks beneath all the dirt?
You could clear coat the shaft with CA to protect the marks, I love it but not all cue makers do this and not all players like the CA clear on the shaft.

Probably easier for you to use a Sharpie and add your own marks.

 

[peteypooldude]

At one time I had a light pencil mark around my shaft to reference
bridge length

 

[rhyno]

i just put a small mark on my shaft where the pivot pont is.it only takes five mins to work out per shaft so i think its easier done by the player.

 

[AtLarge]

No. The natural pivot length depends only on the endmass of the shaft.

I guess that's the conventional wisdom. But is it also scientific fact?

One well known cue maker once told me that he believes that the amount of squirt a cue exhibits also depends on the butt. In other words, a given shaft could exhibit different amounts of squirt depending on the butt on which it is used. Hogwash? Even if the cue maker was right, I imagine that the differences related to butt construction are small compared to the differences related to shaft endmass.

 

[AtLarge]

I voted I'd dislike it, although I wouldn't mind the maker somehow stating the information (just like other cue spec's) before the sale. I'd rather be able to mark just those shafts that I want to -- and in the manner I want to.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

AtLarge:
I guess that's the conventional wisdom. But is it also scientific fact?

Yes. It has been tested numerous times and ways and the results are always that nothing but end mass seems to matter much. Mike Page has a video or two with some really entertaining tests of this.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

The natural pivot length depends only on the endmass of the shaft.

I guess that's the conventional wisdom. But is it also scientific fact?

I think so, per the explanations and resources related to "endmass" and shaft stiffness linked here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass​

One well known cue maker once told me that he believes that the amount of squirt a cue exhibits also depends on the butt. In other words, a given shaft could exhibit different amounts of squirt depending on the butt on which it is used. Hogwash?

IMO, yes (based on the scientific facts linked above).

Now, the butt, tip, and many other factors could have an effect on CB speed, which does affect swerve, but this is different from squirt.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Mike the Bike]

How did Mosconi, et al, play so very well?

Without all the modern hard on shafts and squirtless wonders?

Simple, They were and are pool players and didn't and don't need a load of scientific malarky about squirt
whatever. Plain old wood in the hands of a player is the equal of any of the modern crap.
Work on your stroke and the wood will work just fine.

Mosconi also said the tip should be smooth, not roughed up, and chalked after each shot. No tip grinders or
tappers to ruin the layers. Too much scientific crap not enough practice is most players problem.

MtB:groucho:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Mike the Bike:
Too much scientific crap not enough practice is most players problem.

Nonsense. Not enough practice is everybody's problem, but I don't know anybody who practices less because of the "scientific crap".

pj
chgo

 

[SCCues]

How many cue makers know what a pivot point is or for that matter how many players know what a pivot point is? Just curious......

James

 

[lfigueroa]

Something subtle like a Black Dot perhaps.
Notches with a buck knife = not good.

Cue makers have enuff to do without putting marks on a shaft for you.

Lots of players don't maintain their equipment, they let the shafts get dirty.
How would you see small subtle marks beneath all the dirt?
You could clear coat the shaft with CA to protect the marks, I love it but not all cue makers do this and not all players like the CA clear on the shaft.

Probably easier for you to use a Sharpie and add your own marks.

LEDs.

A little red light (maybe they can make it blink) with wiring running to a AAA battery at the base of the shaft.

Lou Figueroa
sometimes
I crack myself up

 

[Houndbuddy]

Pivot Point.

Swerve is applied with spin only, squirt is applied with Power and weight or mass, Pivot point can only work with a moderate amount of power/speed and Predator has made it clear that all their 314 2nd. Gen. Shafts have a pivot point of 11 to 12 inches.
In a straight line of 50 inches, with a cue tip offset of two cue tips from DC the cue ball deflects 1-3/4" and doing standard trig, I figure the angle is; 2 degrees, you will find that at 14 inches with a predator shaft you will find 2 degrees. That is from the center of the cue ball and you deduct the center to edge of cue ball 1-1/8 inches and voila!! You find the pivot point of your shaft approximately 12 inches from the face of the cue ball.
You Trig experts don't flame me if I am off by .010 of an inch
This works about the same on my old growth shaft, BEM Recovered after hundreds of years submerged under water.

http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cues/predator/314-2_shafts.htm

 

[JB Cases]

Class system

I think that it would create a "class systems" People would then start arguing about what "pivot point" is best and cue makers would feel even more pressure to "conform" by offering shafts with different pivot points.

Sellers would go crazy with people demanding pivot points at exactly x-distance from the tip.

I see it as a nightmare from the maker/seller standpoint.

 

[manwon]

I think you should start another thread in ask the Cue Maker, that way you can get the opinion of builders. I for one would love to see the answers to this question, I think it would be very enlightening for all concerned!!!!!!:smile:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think you should start another thread in ask the Cue Maker, that way you can get the opinion of builders. I for one would love to see the answers to this question, I think it would be very enlightening for all concerned!!!!!!:smile:

I think I'll do that - thanks for the suggestion.

Meanwhile, thanks to all who vote and comment here. The results are very interesting to me.

pj
chgo

 

[AtLarge]

Yes. It has been tested numerous times and ways and the results are always that nothing but end mass seems to matter much. Mike Page has a video or two with some really entertaining tests of this.

pj
chgo

Yes, I had already seen Mike's "Vise-Grip" video. That clearly shows the effect of adding a lot of weight at the end (to a Scruggs, he said!). And then he moves the vise-grips rearward a bit on the shaft to show that it no longer produces the same effect.

But that video is silent about exactly what I mentioned -- whether a given shaft would have exactly the same squirt characteristics if used on different butts. Maybe there have been other videos or tests of exactly that.

The cue maker who told me butts can have an effect on squirt was Bob Meucci. In fact I think that notion is part of his "Power Piston Technology." Or maybe he was just trying to justify the materials and construction methods used in his butts. :smile: But crazy Bob sometimes isn't so crazy.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...that video is silent about exactly what I mentioned -- whether a given shaft would have exactly the same squirt characteristics if used on different butts.

I think the video speaks loudly and clearly about that. If vice grips have no effect after several inches, how can the butt have any effect?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In my not so humble opinion this would be the equivalent of making a ouji board a standard navigational device in all cars.

It's more like a compass than a GPS.

pj
chgo

 

[AtLarge]

I think the video speaks loudly and clearly about that. If vice grips have no effect after several inches, how can the butt have any effect?

pj
chgo

You're probably right. But one shot with vise-grips (producing "a normal amount of squirt," said Mike) is pretty limited scientific evidence. I can't imagine that the butt could have much of an effect, but I still wonder whether anyone has tested exactly what I mentioned. Maybe crazy Bob!

 

[greyghost]

I like the idea on paper just not in reality.....

i guarantee you that the vast majority of players would not like the mark on their shaft........hell everyone wants their shafts to be paper white and look like its been cloroxed.

For the players that do use the pivot length of the cue to their advantage for their particular style of shooting I could see some liking the mark and some not.....

what would be a better idea is that if every cue that a guy made he sold with an info sheet on its distinct balance, weight of shaft &butt, diameters and length....date etc......you could also list things like the pivot length on that card.

Put a sticker inside the buttcap.......or say the pivot length was 8" from the tip of the shaft.....then on the bottom face of the shaft write in sharpie PL8

that would be a more feasible option