should pro tournaments ban the jump cue?

C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I don't know if this topic has come up before, but I will put it out there anyways. So what do you all think?

I played with a jump cue for the first time about a month ago. I had never use one before and never bothered to learn to jump. I had an idea of what to do from reading this forum (thanks guys!), but I had never tried it before. Within a couple of shots I was able to jump balls quite easily. Of course I messed up from time to time, but I wasn't having much trouble. I also pocketed a fair amount of balls this way as well.

My conclusion from this experiance is that the jump cue makes that shot too easy. In the world of golf there has always been a discussion about when the technology makes the game too easy. I think this is relevant with the jump cue in pool.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I don't know if this topic has come up before, but I will put it out there anyways. So what do you all think?

I played with a jump cue for the first time about a month ago. I had never use one before and never bothered to learn to jump. I had an idea of what to do from reading this forum (thanks guys!), but I had never tried it before. Within a couple of shots I was able to jump balls quite easily. Of course I messed up from time to time, but I wasn't having much trouble. I also pocketed a fair amount of balls this way as well.

My conclusion from this experiance is that the jump cue makes that shot too easy. In the world of golf there has always been a discussion about when the technology makes the game too easy. I think this is relevant with the jump cue in pool.
Click to expand...

Bravo, Cameron. I've always been anti-jump-cue. Though I've come to further appreciate how much skill is involved in jump shots thanks to fellow poster Onepocketchump, I still don't like the jump cue.

My main reason is that, at least to me, there is nothing more sacred in pool than position play. It's what separates the best from the rest. The jump cue greatly reduces the penalty for poor position play, and, for that reason, I believe it is inappropriate.

Situational cues (break cues excepted) is not what pool is all about. For my masses, I'd like to use a cue with a short ferrule. For some shots, I'd prefer to use a cue with a stiff shaft, but for others, I'd prefer a whippy shaft. For some shots, I'd like a cue with a small tip, but for others I might prefer a cue with a large tip. However, I'm not allowed to keep changing my equipment from shot to shot to suit the needs of each given shot. To be a great player, one always had to master all the shots with one cue.

Why should it be different now? As far as I'm concerned, your golf analogy is dead on. There is a point at which the equipment can compromise the quality of the game, and to me, the jump cue deserves to be on the outside of competitive pool looking in.
 
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only if they ban jumping

The jump cue isn't a big deal one way or the other. If everybody has one or everybody doesn't the playing field is as equal as you can make it.

Hu
 
We are trying to make the game easier with better equipment. That is why we now have so much more new equipment which were designed to improve performance, such as laminated leather tip, laminated shaft to reduce deflection, breaking cue which was designed to offer more power and control, masse cues designed to make the shot more controllable, and jump cue.

Let's not forget, a modern day production cue is also the result of improved technology, and they are, in many cases, much better balanced than a master piece made in the old day.

We also have more new ferrule material, more cue building equipment, and so on, to make it possible for us to build better cues.

I have tried to use 314 shafts and they do make certain shots with English easier. I know a guy who has been playing for 30 years and he said the 314 made it possible for a kid to make shots that took him many years to learn and master. If something should be banned because it is making the game too easy, shall we ban the 314 shaft?

To extend this line of reasoning, shall we discourage new inventions which are meant to improve performance of players?

I also like to express my own personal point of view on the idea of new invention. I truly believe that new inventions which can serve to make the game easier is good for the sports. It makes the game more popular because it is easier to learn, and it makes it more fun to enjoy especially on the beginner level.

Regarding the point made that it lowers the level of play, I beg to differ. It will take more precise control to win the game now that it is easier for one's opponent to jump, to break and make a ball, to apply extreme english on certain shots, to execute power shots...

For example, if you can tight the ball frozen to another ball, you opponent will still need to kick. Jumping is only an option when you fail to play such a safety. Therefore, in order to win, one has to improve on one's control of the cue ball in order to play tighter safties.

Besides, to control the direction and accurancy of a jump shot is not an easy task, it requires a very good and powerful stroke. The jump cue might help you to get over a ball, but to jump, make the ball, and get position takes a lot of skill. In that sense, it forces the player to learn and perfect one more shot.

And it also forces the player to put the jump shot into the equation when one decides to play safe. The game is not becoming any easier; it is now more offensive, and is more complicated in the strategy department owning to the additon of more shots which are now easier to execute.

I believe it is also good for TV ratings to see jump shots being executed on TV. The game of 9 ball is a lot of fun for TV viewers (especially beginners or recreational players) when it is played with total offence, jump shot adds a lot of color to the game.

It is my honest belief that better equipment will help to make pool a more popular sport. It will raise the standards of the sports, and it will make pool more enjoyable to watch on TV.
 
nipponbilliards said:
We are trying to make the game easier with better equipment. That is why we now have so much more new equipment which were designed to improve performance, such as laminated leather tip, laminated shaft to reduce deflection, breaking cue which was designed to offer more power and control, masse cues designed to make the shot more controllable, and jump cue.

Let's not forget, a modern day production cue is also the result of improved technology, and they are, in many cases, much better balanced than a master piece made in the old day.

We also have more new ferrule material, more cue building equipment, and so on, to make it possible for us to build better cues.

I have tried to use 314 shafts and they do make certain shots with English easier. I know a guy who has been playing for 30 years and he said the 314 made it possible for a kid to make shots that took him many years to learn and master. If something should be banned because it is making the game too easy, shall we ban the 314 shaft?

To extend this line of reasoning, shall we discourage new inventions which are meant to improve performance of players?

I also like to express my own personal point of view on the idea of new invention. I truly believe that new inventions which can serve to make the game easier is good for the sports. It makes the game more popular because it is easier to learn, and it makes it more fun to enjoy especially on the beginner level.

Regarding the point made that it lowers the level of play, I beg to differ. It will take more precise control to win the game now that it is easier for one's opponent to jump, to break and make a ball, to apply extreme english on certain shots, to execute power shots...

For example, if you can tight the ball frozen to another ball, you opponent will still need to kick. Jumping is only an option when you fail to play such a safety. Therefore, in order to win, one has to improve on one's control of the cue ball in order to play tighter safties.

Besides, to control the direction and accurancy of a jump shot is not an easy task, it requires a very good and powerful stroke. The jump cue might help you to get over a ball, but to jump, make the ball, and get position takes a lot of skill. In that sense, it forces the player to learn and perfect one more shot.

And it also forces the player to put the jump shot into the equation when one decides to play safe. The game is not becoming any easier; it is now more offensive, and is more complicated in the strategy department owning to the additon of more shots which are now easier to execute.

I believe it is also good for TV ratings to see jump shots being executed on TV. The game of 9 ball is a lot of fun for TV viewers (especially beginners or recreational players) when it is played with total offence, jump shot adds a lot of color to the game.

It is my honest belief that better equipment will help to make pool a more popular sport. It will raise the standards of the sports, and it will make pool more enjoyable to watch on TV.
Click to expand...

I think if technology improves the equipment in a sport to the point where it is removing or at least lessening its difficulty to a greater degree than there should be limits as to what can be used by the pro's.

I have a friend who recently bought a predator cue with a 314 shaft. It did improve his game, but not much. Nothing that would be noticable to anyone who hasn't shot over 100 hours with him. Predators technology does make it easier to use side, but it doesn't make balls for you. A long pot is still incredibly tough.

I don't think that the jump cue should be outlawed and forced out of production, that would be silly. But as far as professional tournaments are concerned, they shouldn't be allowed. It takes far more skill to jump and pot balls with a full sized playing or break cue than it does with a a jump cue.

This isn't golf we shouldn't have a dozen different cues (as SJM said). Golfers have a number of different clubs because there are shots that simply can not be played with out those clubs. In pool on the other hand, every shot can be played with a standard length of cue.
 
take a bow nipponbilliards. very well put. I'm coming in on the pro jump cue side. It's just silly to expect equipment to stay the same. If it didn't change, we wouldn't be using cues at all, we wouldn't have rubber rails, we would be using clay balls and we sure as heck wouldn't have simonis 860. billiards games change, rules change, new games are created, old games are forgotten sometimes change is as much as part of the game as it is in life.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I think if technology improves the equipment in a sport to the point where it is removing or at least lessening its difficulty to a greater degree than there should be limits as to what can be used by the pro's.

I have a friend who recently bought a predator cue with a 314 shaft. It did improve his game, but not much. Nothing that would be noticable to anyone who hasn't shot over 100 hours with him. Predators technology does make it easier to use side, but it doesn't make balls for you. A long pot is still incredibly tough.

I don't think that the jump cue should be outlawed and forced out of production, that would be silly. But as far as professional tournaments are concerned, they shouldn't be allowed. It takes far more skill to jump and pot balls with a full sized playing or break cue than it does with a a jump cue.

This isn't golf we shouldn't have a dozen different cues (as SJM said). Golfers have a number of different clubs because there are shots that simply can not be played with out those clubs. In pool on the other hand, every shot can be played with a standard length of cue.
Click to expand...

I can see that the IPT is pretty much sharing your point of view. I also agree that it is more difficult to jump with a full cue, and some shots are simply impossible to jump with a full cue.

But I am not sure if the use of jump cue is actually making the game easier. Like I said, when jump cue is allowed, a player has to be more precise with his safety play.

Moreover, the game is still favorable to the player who can jump with better control. In my opinion, such a player can run out more tables because he has perfected an additional shot, not because the game is made "easier."

Some players have a very big break and they can make more balls on average than others. Should a big break be disallowed because making 4 or 5 balls off the break will make the game easier?

Or shall we encourage players to develop and improve their skills in order to win more matches? (i.e. develop the skill to jump a ball accurately, to break a rack with power and control...etc)

Isn't this what promoting a sport is all about?

Since there are shots and situations whereas a close jump is the only way to get out, I also wonder if we are being fair by disallowing a professional to use a jump cue in such game winning situations(when such a shot is allowed in non professional events)?

Thank you.

Richard
 
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As in any "game", there is allowances to "test the waters".

The "jump" cue (when you think about it) hasn't been around that long. Hell, just think about this.

Learn where you're coming from, to know where you're heading to.

If you can't adapt, then maybe, just maybe, try a new hobby.

sorry to be so obtuse.
 
Pro Jump Cues

I am just a little guy that is not afraid to get his feet wet .... lol Hey, I can kick better than Jump, and sometimes I am too short for certain Jump Shots, but they should not be outlawed, the game evolves. Basketball and Baseball have evolved into the games they are today, and hardly what they were 50 years ago.

New equipment keeps the old players on his toes, keeping up, and makes him work on his game, keeps him involved. If you think you can make every Jump shot I am gonna leave ya, I have a bet for ya, and we can bet big.

This is like saying combo shots should be outlawed because they make the game easier. Hogwash ....

Me and a partner were down 5-4 the other night, he left me a tough shot for shape on the 5, so I shot a 3 ball combo for the 9, and nailed the sucker, and then broke the next rack and snapped the 9. Should my combo have been illegal because it was the best option for me?

Like Richard has said, the finer points of Jump shots are hard to master, like following a jump shot, or extreme english on a jump shot. The 'fad' lately seems to be the dart stroke with jump cues, but I hardly see them
pot the ball on them.

I can jump with a full cue when the ball I am jumping is far enough out
front, and pretty accurate too. I have a tendency to be a little heavy handed on Jumps which works good for full cue jumps, but not so good for jump cue jump shots. My point being, that all of the options should be available, and the techniques that is required for each. I have seen some
guys JUMP BETTER WITH A FULL CUE THAN 95% OF YOU CAN WITH A JUMP CUE. I will post a couple of the jump shots and who made them.
A bunch of players would be saying to outlaw JUMP SHOTS altogether after running inot to a player so talented on jump shots with a FULL CUE, IS THAT RIGHT?

How about if we outlaw ANY damn shot where it takes a lot of expertise?
That way, my matches will be a lot easier .... lol

Creativity is a BIG PART of this game, and should be allowed to flow, not be stifled. After all, that creativity is what 'Wows' us, and makes us go 'ah' and 'oh' on occasion.
 
> The jump cue was actually banned for the last several years of the PBTA,this started in about 1994-5. The reason it was originally banned was because of the radical direction they were taking. The ones that specifically caused the across-the-board ban on all types didn't even look like a cue any more,closer to a tire beater stick with a 5/8 phenolic tip,which was often left unchalked,hence the "must resemble a pool cue" and "must be a minimum of 40 inches" rules. The only reason I even bought one and learned to use it was in self-defense. People were using them and beating me,so I adapted. I am now a whole-hearted supporter of the thing. If they were banned again,no complaints,as long as no one else can use them. I'll bet there will be more whole-cue jumping in the IPT,as the thick napped cloth they are using is a buttload easier to jump on than any of the thinner,faster stuff,when using a full length cue. Tommy D.
 
I'd be happy if the jump cue went away. I do own one though because, as long as they're allowed, I'm not going to be at a disadvantage just because of some ideal that I may have.
 
nipponbilliards said:
Some players have a very big break and they can make more balls on average than others. Should a big break be disallowed because making 4 or 5 balls off the break will make the game easier?

Or shall we encourage players to develop and improve their skills in order to win more matches? (i.e. develop the skill to jump a ball accurately, to break a rack with power and control...etc)

Isn't this what promoting a sport is all about?

Since there are shots and situations whereas a close jump is the only way to get out, I also wonder if we are being fair by disallowing a professional to use a jump cue in such game winning situations(when such a shot is allowed in non professional events)?

Thank you.

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard, having a strong break is a learned shot. No matter your physical size, anyone can learn to break hard! Comparing a hard break to a jump shot is silly. If you learn to break hard with any normal legal cue, well done.

IMO jump cues are an embarrassment, a jump shot with a full cue is beautiful shot to see.

I think we need to ask ourselves are we talking about a topic on tradition of our sport, or one of business and marketing?

Yes, I own a jump/break cue......yes, I can use it......no, it's not in my case.

Gerry
 
I have to disagree

Gerry said:
Richard, having a strong break is a learned shot. No matter your physical size, anyone can learn to break hard! Comparing a hard break to a jump shot is silly. If you learn to break hard with any normal legal cue, well done.

IMO jump cues are an embarrassment, a jump shot with a full cue is beautiful shot to see.

I think we need to ask ourselves are we talking about a topic on tradition of our sport, or one of business and marketing?

Yes, I own a jump/break cue......yes, I can use it......no, it's not in my case.

Gerry
Click to expand...

Gerry ... I have to disagree with you. What you said is like saying
'Anyone can learn to hit a home run' in baseball. Fact is, many many
baseball players, amateurs and some pros, go their whole lives without
hitting a home run. Some people are not physically capable of it, and
the same holds true for 'big breaks'. Notice I said big breaks, not making a ball of the break. Some people, you could tie a 30 lb weight to their butt, and they still could not do a 'big break'. Just because some physically smaller players have learned to break 'big', does not mean that all players can, just as some basketball players can not dunk the basketball.

And Gerry, you have stated a contradiction in terms, a jump shot is a 'learned' shot as well as a break shot.

Yes, I have a jump stick, in fact, I have 3. Yes, I use them. And I got started using them because I was getting beat with them. Do I think
they should go away? No, I don't.
 
Cameron Smith said:
In pool on the other hand, every shot can be played with a standard length of cue.
Click to expand...

That's quite an interesting statement.

I expect you are able to jump balls. Just how close to an obstructing object ball are you able to make a full ball jump with a regular playing cue?

Flex
 
Cameron Smith said:
I don't know if this topic has come up before, but I will put it out there anyways. So what do you all think?

I played with a jump cue for the first time about a month ago. I had never use one before and never bothered to learn to jump. I had an idea of what to do from reading this forum (thanks guys!), but I had never tried it before. Within a couple of shots I was able to jump balls quite easily. Of course I messed up from time to time, but I wasn't having much trouble. I also pocketed a fair amount of balls this way as well.

My conclusion from this experiance is that the jump cue makes that shot too easy. In the world of golf there has always been a discussion about when the technology makes the game too easy. I think this is relevant with the jump cue in pool.
Click to expand...

I'd prefer a world without jump cues, but they're here to stay. That's a plain fact. If they're here to stay I'm going to have one in my cue case.
I also don't agree they make the game easier. They make the jump shot easier and as a result they make the game different, but they don't make the game easier. It could even be argued that they make the game more difficult because they reduce the number of ball in hand situations.

IMHO.
 
Snapshot9 said:
... Basketball and Baseball have evolved into the games they are today, and hardly what they were 50 years ago.
...
Click to expand...

Bad analogy, IMO basketball has been destroyed. I wouldn't watch the pros double dribble, palm the ball, and travel if you paid me....
The jump cue on the other hand hasn't destroyed the game of pool.
 
I once was against jump cues but have changed my thoughts on it. Yes it does make hits easier for your opponent except they still need to know how to use it effectively.

Otherwise, they jump the table which gives me ball in hand or they miss the shot and a lot of tied up balls get broken up. Having the jump cue available also makes me play tougher safes so they can not jump, which is good for me.

All-in-all I say use it and be good with it.
 
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Flex said:
That's quite an interesting statement.

I expect you are able to jump balls. Just how close to an obstructing object ball are you able to make a full ball jump with a regular playing cue?

Flex
Click to expand...

You are right about jumping a ball that is close, w/o a jump cue it is very difficult though I do know some that can do it with follow and draw. For those of you that know Tony Morrison, he can jump any distance with great control with a regular stick. He can jump table length and draw the CB back down table on a nappy cloth.
 
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