Siming Chen

[KRJ]

Originally Posted by mikepage
There was an interesting study related to this. They took a bunch of female and male top young chess players and had them play against an opponent they could not see. The young women performed significantly worse when they THOUGHT they were playing against a male than when they THOUGHT they were playing against a female. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is clear there is complicated crap going on, and we should be circumspect about any conclusions...[/QUOTE]


I agree, there are lots of things going on behind the scenes that we don't know. But "we" are different, and that's a fact, and probably a good thing. Men kill, murder, rape and kidnap at a rate 100 times more then woman. Might be why prisons are filled well over 90% with men.

So, I take no offense that woman are better human beings then men :grin-square:

If men are better at chess, does it really matter in the scheme of things

 

[mikepage]

I don't know anything about the Fargo rating system. Does it apply to One Pocket?

It does not.

I would say, though, that a players Fargo Rating forms kind of an upper limit to how good the player can get at one-pocket.

That is, a player with a world-class Fargo Rating could get world-class at One Pocket if they dedicated themselves to the game and played a lot with top players who know how to move.

 

[KRJ]

The chess analogie is interesting. Chess is a great game. Even a guy like Bobby Fisher that had a massive 181 IQ had to drop out of high school and totally focus on Chess to be world champion.

When playing Russian champions you were basically playing the whole Soviet State as they totally subsidized and schooled their players. In the US you were on your own.

That's why Fisher's win in Iceland was so earth shattering.

Yeah, I thought so to. As you know from NPR I got the chess bug now, and I got it bad I can't ever just enjoy a hobby, I want to be very good at it, and I'm at least a few decades away with chess, but I'm gonna get there

 

[overlord]

Yeah, I thought so to. As you know from NPR I got the chess bug now, and I got it bad I can't ever just enjoy a hobby, I want to be very good at it, and I'm at least a few decades away with chess, but I'm gonna get there

I think this applies to pool as well. My feeling is and I don't know for sure that Siming Chen is subsidized by the Chinese government. Does anybody know for sure what that situation is?

 

[Skratch]

What is misleading is you suggesting they are claiming those women are better than the men. They are not. If I say Jasmin beat Mark Gray 9-4 in a Eurotour event--which she did--, I am not saying Jasmin is better than Mark Gray. I'm just saying that's a feather in her cap.



This is exactly the problem that FargoRate solves. Are you aware that if we take Shane Van Boening and ignore ALL his games against other pros and compute his rating just based on play against amateurs, his rating comes out the same as it is now?

Hi Mike,

When you're SVB and you're head and shoulders above the competition, then it won't matter whether you play the pro or amateurs. If God played and won every game, that only proves he's God. LOL. If the Fargo Rating (for the women) were based on the numbers mostly when they competed against other women and not the general populace, then the numbers are biased. If you say, Karen or Siming's numbers were mostly against the men, then I would have more faith in what the OP is alluding. My suggestion of removing the women's tournaments, or rather, have the women play more consistently in the open events, would more than likely correct the Fargo ratings. The only way I can see that the ratings would be correct, is if they are purely performance based. Almost like the ghost ball drill. You either run the rack or your don't. It doesn't matter who your opponent is (in that case you're assuming it's God). If the Fargo Rating system is designed as such, I'll concede that the women players are outperforming the men on the list as suggested. But then, that begs the question: Why if you're ratings are better than many of the men, aren't they participating in more open events? Hypothetically, in an Open event, who would you bet on, Siming or the one of the next ten guys she's higher than in the Fargo Ratings?

As for Jasmine beating Mark, then I agree that is a feather in her cap, but to do it consistently would then show she should be considered the better player.

 

[Nostroke]

This is exactly the problem that FargoRate solves. Are you aware that if we take Shane Van Boening and ignore ALL his games against other pros and compute his rating just based on play against amateurs, his rating comes out the same as it is now?

So you CAN get a super high rating by beating D Players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

 

[overlord]

It does not.

I would say, though, that a players Fargo Rating forms kind of an upper limit to how good the player can get at one-pocket.

That is, a player with a world-class Fargo Rating could get world-class at One Pocket if they dedicated themselves to the game and played a lot with top players who know how to move.

OK, here is some real world data. In Santa Monica CA., the game is One Pocket. That's what is played in that room.

The dominant male player can give the dominant female player 12-5 and win just about every game, regardless of who is breaking.

Both players have access to a home table and know each other very well. In fact the dominant female player has no chance and palms her forehead in disbelief after losing game after game.

Table slapping is observed, the pulling of hair and declarative exclamations of frustration. . None of this changes the outcome.

I don't think your rating system vitiates anything I've manifested about dominant male and female players.

Case in point let us say the dominant female player in the world is Siming Chen, like you say. And for arguments sake, lets say SVB is the dominant male player. I believe this is born out in your rating system, right now.

There is no way that Chen can prevail against SVB in a multiple set all night money match.

My point is, as it is so in the pool hall, so it is at the professional level.

 

[PRED]

so you can get a super high rating by beating d players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

w t f argo

 

[LAMas]

Another Metric

They both do well for Pool Players:

SIMING CHEN
EARNINGS AZB MONEY LEADERBOARD
$92,671 1st

SHANE VAN BOENING
EARNINGS AZB MONEY LEADERBOARD
$91,520 2nd

 

[mikepage]

So you CAN get a super high rating by beating D Players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

Absolutely.

I'm 628--based on everything

I just computed my own rating based only on opponents rates 430 and under. It is 635

Then I computed my rating based ONLY on opponents rated 730 and over--like if I just played the pros

It is 632.

This is a key feature of Fargorate's approach.

 

[mikepage]

[...]

I don't think your rating system vitiates anything I've manifested about dominant male and female players.

I don't understand this.

Case in point let us say the dominant female player in the world is Siming Chen, like you say. And for arguments sake, lets say SVB is the dominant male player. I believe this is born out in your rating system, right now.

There is no way that Chen can prevail against SVB in a multiple set all night money match.

My point is, as it is so in the pool hall, so it is at the professional level.

Again, I I think you are saying things that are supposed to sound like you are refuting something others are saying. But I don't know a single person on planet earth that would disagree with wat you've said here. Do you?

 

[overlord]

I don't understand this.



Again, I I think you are saying things that are supposed to sound like you are refuting something others are saying. But I don't know a single person on planet earth that would disagree with wat you've said here. Do you?

Through the years when I've stated the facts regarding this issue I get a lot of reactionary rebuttals based on feelings.

I've had people that were good players and smart tell me that women will be able to compete with men at the top of the sport. The data 25 years ago did not support that supposition and it does not today.

I would like to know if you post the criteria for Fargo. I would also like to know if the top Chinese players from mainland China are subsidized by the state.

 

[Positively Ralf]

You comment does not exactly support your notion that you look at things logically, except in so much as you clearly are right about the last statement.
I can't believe the difference between a man and woman isn't more obvious.
I really don't feel like writing out a long thing on my phone, so let me just point out that there are many many differences between men and women: cognition, temperament, interests throughout life, physical differences, and on and on. Tons of research indicates that there are biological underpinnings for these differences.
The whole "pool isn't a game of strength" is a sad and woefully under-considered viewpoint. Every single shot in pool requires strength. Drawing the ball the length of the table from 5 feet away for example requires strength. Some girls simply do not possess that level of strength, of do not possess the ability to concentrate that strength in a way necessary to accurately do this thing. If I have developed the stroke power to break at like 30mph, then when it comes time to hit a firm draw shot, that feels effortless to me, thus opening the door for far more accuracy. Having coached many people, and many girls, trust me...strength makes a BIG difference in this game, and most men do not appreciate just how much stronger they are than the average woman. Obviously there are exceptions. But they are exceptions, which are, um, exceptional. For any thinking person, the physical strength differences and its effect on the game should be more than clear.
Still, even if we foolishly choose to eliminate that component of the comparison, the differences in temperament are even greater than the differences in strength. Over millennia these differences in temperament, cognition, interests, etc. have been subject to social influence, but also are reflected in biological differences between men and women. I have never understood why men and women must be viewed as equal in everything. They are not, and that's fine. They are two very different types of beings. Different skill sets, different strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, and on average of course. Simply put, the ability to stand up under the pressure of competition, people watching, possibly an adversarial attitude of the opponent, essentially a "threat", is a HUGE part of being a competitive pool player. Men are biologically put together specifically for the purpose of excelling in these sorts of situations, and women are not. Exceptions? Sure, on both sides. But to overlook the vast amounts of research claiming exactly this is a mistake, and leads to such statements as "I see no reason why women can play pool as well as men". Let's see...chess has zero physical requirements right? And yet the top men are much much better than the top women. Why? Because it is competition. And men by their biology and usually upbringing are made for competition, whereas women seem built for the opposite. Also, the differences in cognition between men and women become obvious in this sort of game, which shares some elements with some pool games.
Why are differences bad?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

Thank you for missing the entire point of my post. I never asked for the differences between male and female anatomies or how different men live their lives compared to females.

and yes, I still stand by what I say. This is not tennis, football, soccer or bowling. Literally, the only difference between a male and female pool player is how much power is generated at the break. If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.

But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.

 

[Pacecar]

Overlord,
It is my understanding that the Fargo rating system is a refinement of the better-known ELO rating relationships system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Study and understand the mathematics and statistics associated with the ELO system; then study the information presented on the Fargo website. Hopefully, you'll be able to better understand and appreciate the comments being made by Mike Page.
-Larry

 

[overlord]

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-ch...s-feared-it-would-disturb-her-training-2012-8

This article talks about all kinds of athletes in China. I am assuming since the Chinese government subsidizes its snooker and table tennis players that the same is being done for its pool players.

I may be wrong. If I am right then" Siming Chen " is no " free range " player but a product of the state. US players have not such luxury.

In Los Angeles good luck trying to get just a permit to operate a pool hall much less get the US government to back you in trying to compete at the game.

Our players have to make it on their own. Even Barry Hearn acknowledges that the future for snooker is in China not the UK.

There are like 50 million Chinese snooker players.

 

[overlord]

Overlord,
It is my understanding that the Fargo rating system is a refinement of the better-known ELO rating relationships system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Study and understand the mathematics and statistics associated with the ELO system; then study the information presented on the Fargo website. Hopefully, you'll be able to better understand and appreciate the comments being made by Mike Page.
-Larry

Thank you I will take a look.

 

[LAMas]

The Future?

Chinese 8 Ball (snooker tables) booth introduced at the Rio.

41st BCAPL National Championships!

 

[ribdoner]

So you CAN get a super high rating by beating D Players? I guess i dont understand fargo afterall.

His staement leads me to believe that my FR would be higher if i clubbed baby seals (apa 2's) vs batting .500 vs the top 20 FR monsters

 

[highkarate]

OK, here is some real world data. In Santa Monica CA., the game is One Pocket. That's what is played in that room.

The dominant male player can give the dominant female player 12-5 and win just about every game, regardless of who is breaking.

Both players have access to a home table and know each other very well. In fact the dominant female player has no chance and palms her forehead in disbelief after losing game after game.

Table slapping is observed, the pulling of hair and declarative exclamations of frustration. . None of this changes the outcome.

I don't think your rating system vitiates anything I've manifested about dominant male and female players.

Case in point let us say the dominant female player in the world is Siming Chen, like you say. And for arguments sake, lets say SVB is the dominant male player. I believe this is born out in your rating system, right now.

There is no way that Chen can prevail against SVB in a multiple set all night money match.

My point is, as it is so in the pool hall, so it is at the professional level.

Are you talking about wayne and jenny? we must know each other...

 

[mikepage]

I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.