Siming Chen

The institution of Chess makes it an unwelcoming possibility for women to even start in. That's why there's such a disparity. Women are just as smart as men

It’s a bit tough to be a woman chess player in the Muslim world....but many women play.

Dorsa, Iranian grandmaster....

F6CBF897-1CD7-4258-A598-0218B6B5E6C7.jpeg

It would be a pleasure to be checkmated by this wonderful looking woman.

But RJ has a point....chess is a war game...men tend to be warriors....
...women tend to be nurturers....vive la différence
 
Yes, they are. Folks are saying there should NOT be any advantage in pool because strength, endurance, etc is so minimal. Chess is not even minimal, it's not existence.

So, tell us why men completely dominate the chess board? And if you find out why, you might find out the reason it's so in pool.

Other sports, baseball, football, etc, physical differences come into play... even though the one of the best hitters in all of baseball right now is 5'5" tall, and weighs all of 165 pounds.

I think it comes down to total number of participants. How many men play competitive chess vs. how many women play? Same with pool.

So for example, if say 10 times the number of men play chess than women, it stands to reason that you'll get more men with higher ratings than with the smaller group of women.
 
I think it comes down to total number of participants. How many men play competitive chess vs. how many women play? Same with pool.

So for example, if say 10 times the number of men play chess than women, it stands to reason that you'll get more men with higher ratings than with the smaller group of women.

I think it has more to do with the fact that being a top chessplayer requires one to absolutely center their lives around chess, and nothing else. Much like it does in every other sport/game. If you want to reach/stay at the top, then your every thought is centered around that raw ambition. This is something the individual male has little control of. There is a reason for the saying "Your sport chooses you, not the other way around.."

I think THIS is the difference between men and women. Men tend to become so obsessive about the need to conquer/dominate, that it rules their entire life, and changes the way they see everything in the world.

Evolutionary biology has shaped male and female mammals to serve different functions. Males by and large, win the right to procreate by fighting off all challengers. And females are programmed by biology to submit to the strongest conqueror.

So, in the end, a woman, given the sport/game is not centered around strength, CAN have as much "physical" talent... But then she has to have the competitive drive to go along with it. So often, people in this debate make the excuse that "not as many women compete, so that's why their are not as many world class women.."

Well, duh.. They biologically don't have the compulsion to aggress and conquer that males do.. And so the women that DO compete at a high level are strong outliers. Just like some women have much more prominent masculine features and aggressive personalities due to skewing towards a higher level of natural testosterone due to genetic variance, so too will some women skew to a higher competitive drive.

But that doesn't mean that the woman outlier is going to have the same competitive drive as the top men, or anywhere even close to it. It just means she has more than most of the women in the sport/game. And before one says "Well, yeah, but since it is harder for a woman to make it to the top, often they give up.." To that I say, Shane Van Boening is a perfect example... He lives in a country where there hasn't been a real strong pool scene in quite a few years. He has to win nearly EVERYTHING he plays in to break $150,000.00 a year.. But he does it because he has an overpowering drive to win against all odds. Men compete in sports out of a need to compete and conquer, not because they reward great riches.

So, in essence I am saying... Women outliers may tend to have more "competitive juices" (testosterone/agressiveness/drive) flowing that gets them in the practice room, and gets them out there competing. But they are still only outliers on the female scale, and the level of these "competitive juices" still are a percentage of that flowing in the veins of the very top males. These competitive juices don't just manifest themselves on game day.. They manifest themselves in the overpowering need to master the most esoteric of shots just in case they come up in that 1 out of 100 sets that results in a championship win. They drive to practice 12-14 hours a day for multiple years.

Example: Earl Strickland and how he used to practice full table jump shots where he pocketed a ball and drew the CB all the way back down the table. He used to practice that shot for hours at a time. And we've all heard similar stories of other top male pros doing the same. I just don't know that any female has the same level of outright obsession.

Short Bus Russ
 
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Congrats to her for making the most money from tournaments in 2018 so far of any human being. Also congrats to her for improving her own fargorate by 7 points and jumping into #28 in the entire world, she will probably be the first female to reach 820 when she hits her peak
That could be true if the top men are 850 , I know as a fact there are several Men below her that her backers wont put her in the box with ,,,

1
 
It’s a bit tough to be a woman chess player in the Muslim world....but many women play.

Dorsa, Iranian grandmaster....

View attachment 495307

It would be a pleasure to be checkmated by this wonderful looking woman.

But RJ has a point....chess is a war game...men tend to be warriors....
...women tend to be nurturers....vive la différence

This is Sopiko Guramishvili a Georgian chess player.
That's a Christian country.:wink:
 
This is Sopiko Guramishvili a Georgian chess player.
That's a Christian country.:wink:

8102CE1D-525C-408E-9C3E-B30C63322312.jpeg

This is the woman Inwas thinking of....she is one of several grandmasters from Iran...
....but now I can’t remember her name....:o
 
I think it has more to do with the fact that being a top chessplayer requires one to absolutely center their lives around chess, and nothing else. Much like it does in every other sport/game. If you want to reach/stay at the top, then your every thought is centered around that raw ambition. This is something the individual male has little control of. There is a reason for the saying "Your sport chooses you, not the other way around.."

I think THIS is the difference between men and women. Men tend to become so obsessive about the need to conquer/dominate, that it rules their entire life, and changes the way they see everything in the world.

Evolutionary biology has shaped male and female mammals to serve different functions. Males by and large, win the right to procreate by fighting off all challengers. And females are programmed by biology to submit to the strongest conqueror.

So, in the end, a woman, given the sport/game is not centered around strength, CAN have as much "physical" talent... But then she has to have the competitive drive to go along with it. So often, people in this debate make the excuse that "not as many women compete, so that's why their are not as many world class women.."

Well, duh.. They biologically don't have the compulsion to aggress and conquer that males do.. And so the women that DO compete at a high level are strong outliers. Just like some women have much more prominent masculine features and aggressive personalities due to skewing towards a higher level of natural testosterone due to genetic variance, so too will some women skew to a higher competitive drive.

But that doesn't mean that the woman outlier is going to have the same competitive drive as the top men, or anywhere even close to it. It just means she has more than most of the women in the sport/game. And before one says "Well, yeah, but since it is harder for a woman to make it to the top, often they give up.." To that I say, Shane Van Boening is a perfect example... He lives in a country where there hasn't been a real strong pool scene in quite a few years. He has to win nearly EVERYTHING he plays in to break $150,000.00 a year.. But he does it because he has an overpowering drive to win against all odds. Men compete in sports out of a need to compete and conquer, not because they reward great riches.

So, in essence I am saying... Women outliers may tend to have more "competitive juices" (testosterone/agressiveness/drive) flowing that gets them in the practice room, and gets them out there competing. But they are still only outliers on the female scale, and the level of these "competitive juices" still are a percentage of that flowing in the veins of the very top males. These competitive juices don't just manifest themselves on game day.. They manifest themselves in the overpowering need to master the most esoteric of shots just in case they come up in that 1 out of 100 sets that results in a championship win. They drive to practice 12-14 hours a day for multiple years.

Example: Earl Strickland and how he used to practice full table jump shots where he pocketed a ball and drew the CB all the way back down the table. He used to practice that shot for hours at a time. And we've all heard similar stories of other top male pros doing the same. I just don't know that any female has the same level of outright obsession.

Short Bus Russ

Russ, you could be right, but until the differences are still apparent when approximately equal numbers of men/women compete at something, be it pool or chess, I will continue to believe that it's just purely a numbers game.

My point is that the difference in participation rates is not small. If it were close, say within 20%, then I might be more inclined to agree with you but until then I will continue to believe that the large pool of players that men draw from compared to the relatively small pool that women draw from is reason they play stronger on average than women do.
 
Russ, you could be right, but until the differences are still apparent when approximately equal numbers of men/women compete at something, be it pool or chess, I will continue to believe that it's just purely a numbers game.

My point is that the difference in participation rates is not small. If it were close, say within 20%, then I might be more inclined to agree with you but until then I will continue to believe that the large pool of players that men draw from compared to the relatively small pool that women draw from is reason they play stronger on average than women do.

I don't think you got the point I was trying to make. The NUMBERS are vastly different between female and male competitors BECAUSE of the genetic difference in aggression and competitive urge. There will never be equal numbers of men and women competing in anything, because women as a group do not have the genetic programming to want to compete in the first place.There is a "large pool of men to draw from", because men are always contesting themselves against one another in sporting competition, because they are biologically driven to do so. Women compete in other areas. The ability to attract males, generally... Because this is their role in the reproductive process. To be the most attractive/submissive to the strongest, most aggressive male available.

There are not fewer women playing pool because of "cultural" factors, of being looked down on because one is a female playing pool. Men play pool first and foremost because they want to defeat other pool players. The "beauty" of the game is certainly a factor, but the "beauty" of the game is not what drives a player of either sex to get good enough to run a 5 pack.

Players of either sex get to that point because they want to shoot someone's liver in. And the simple pure fact is that as a population, women don't WANT to compete. What they WANT to do is have a family, care for that family, and reduce conflict in that family. So as a "population", women are more interested in reducing conflict, than participating in it.

I look at it this way... Males and females are genetically different, specifically when it comes to whatever brain/hormone factor induces aggression/competition. From a biological/evolutionary viewpoint, the only time a female generally aggresses is when her offspring or to a lesser extent, herself is attacked. Males are biologically programmed to aggress simply when they perceive another male has come into their "territory".

Funny story about that.. When I was 22/23, I actually considered the tournaments I played in in Tacoma/WA area to be my "territory", and felt a burning desire to show up and defeat any lesser players. This was a VERY real thing in my mind. Sounds a lot like a bull moose going nuts if another male comes anywhere near, doesn't it?

I watch a TON of nature documentaries, and to me, it is more than a coincidence that males of all mammal species are extremely aggressive towards one another, and females are submissive to the male that wins out. It may seem sexist to say so, but I submit that the human species is no different. Females are not built genetically to compete, and whatever outliers amongst their population that ARE more prone to compete, will skew more towards male traits. More masculine physical features, more aggressive personalities outside of competition, etc.

Not that we know of any female pool players like that, eh? Lol.

But, back to your point about participation pools. If we COULD somehow equalize the number of men and women competing at a sport/game that does not require muscles, I submit that while the top 1% of each sex would have approximately equal physical skills (debatable, due to male spatial and tracking abilities being shaped by millions of generations of evolution, aimed at the need to catch and kill prey, and avoid being prey), that the top 1% WOULD NOT be equal in competitive urge and aggression. We've both seen people lose matches simply due to the fact that they "couldn't pull the trigger" when they were backed up against the wall.

And back to the chess thing... I play chess and have actually studied it a bit, and one thing a lot of people are not aware of is that Master level players are all pretty much born with the brain wiring that makes pattern recognition/retention MUCH easier for them than the rest of the population. To a male mammal, pattern recognition is a valuable trait to have to identify the presence/absence of predator/prey, and to identify behavioral patterns in the same predator/prey. So it may very well be that this extreme pattern recognition is much more evolved in the male population than in the female, because it really isn't needed if you are a female sitting at home caring for the cubs.

In the end, it could very well be that while you have female outliers, that the top 1% of the males will always be better than the top 1% of the females, PHYSICALLY, because every skill in every sport or game has a physical basis, and most are adapted from hunting/being hunted, which gives the advantage in almost every single one of these cases to males. This is without even putting in the aggression/competitive urge factor.
 
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It's definitely a controversial topic in today's age. Some maintain the genders are the same and that if opportunity was equal results would be equal, so any difference in outcome proves there is sexism at play. Others believe that there are tangible differences between men and women and even if the opportunity was completely equal there would be a difference in results because of that.

One idea I find fascinating is that the drive for men to dominate is rooted in a desire to be able to attract a mate and so pass on their genes. In a sense one could say that men's games are truly life or death because if they aren't successful their genetic line will die with them. In general women aren't required to achieve in order to procreate in the same way. Look at it this way- a 25 year old man with no job, living in his parent's basement, with average looks, low confidence, and mediocre social skills will have a very hard time attracting a mate. But a 25 year old woman in the same situation would not have the same amount of difficulty finding a guy that would be willing.

It's more complicated than that, but it's an interesting theory. It seems the truth lies somewhere in the middle and it is hard to get to in a society as complex and diverse as ours.
 
It's more complicated than that, but it's an interesting theory. It seems the truth lies somewhere in the middle and it is hard to get to in a society as complex and diverse as ours.

The idea of genetic differences between the sexes that subscribe exactly to each's role in the reproductive process is never more clear than with birds.

Many (as in almost ALL) female prey birds are a very muted color, blending into their environment so that they can sit on the eggs until they hatch, thereby ensuring the females do their part to make sure the species survives.

The males are often very brightly colored, or perform some sort of attention-seeking dance that attracts both the female of the species, and is easy to see for any predators in the area.. The brightness of their colors indicates genetic health. For those males who live in an environment with too many predators to safely display garish colors, invariably there is some sort of physical challenge that must be overcome.. Call the longest/loudest.. Jump the highest over and over for an extended period of time.. Flight aerobatics display, etc.

In essence, the male must ALWAYS display, in some form or another, their genetic fitness. And the males who do so will often get to mate with EVERY female in the vicinity. And females genetically become more and more prone to submit to the strongest male (because the ones who don't, have inferior offspring, less likely to survive), and the males become genetically more capable of performing all these physical feats, because all the offsping are fathered by the studliest male.

And that's how you get humans with males that have much greater physical abilities than the females, that go far beyond just muscles.

And it even goes so far as the male/female mating dance working pretty much the same way. Display extreme excellence in any field, and the ladies come a'calling. (I met my wife right after I hit my top speed around 23 or so, and was cashing in almost every tournament I played in). This is a display of a certain kind of genetic fitness. Physical ability AND drive/determination/aggression/competitiveness (alpha qualities).

Those dudes who work out at the gym and body build.. They are displaying another type of genetic fitness. Specifically, the type that the VAST majority of women are genetically programmed to respond to. Thin waistline indicating athletic fitness/ability to chase prey/escape predators. Broad shoulders, displaying the ability to lift heavy weights and combat rival males...

And it's not just women who respond. If you are extremely fit and have lotsa muscles, from what I read on the bodybuilding forum weight loss megathreads, those who lose weight and lift weights see males begin to defer to their opinion much more often. People give them free stuff in the stores, and hold the door open for them much more so than before they got fit.

So there is a lot more biology going on at a base level than people really know. It governs a LARGE portion of our daily behavior. We are not nearly the uber-logical higher order being than many would have us believe. We are basically monkeys with pretty damn good problem solving skills, who can pass on learned tricks through communication. Some portion of our population occasionally has a logical thought, as well.
 
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ShortBussRuss - many people have looked at existing differences between groups and said “I think it’s genetic.” It may be, but when people have said those things they’ve almost always been wrong.

It wasn’t more than a couple generations ago that virtually no women went on in higher education, and therefore almost no women took careers in field requiring advanced education. And lots of men said things like “women are genetically inferior to men” in those fields. There were lots of fancy theories about how women are biologically programmed to take care of babies, yadda yadda. But today women outnumber and outperform men in higher ed, so it’s very unlikely that they’re genetically inferior in intelligence.

In pool, it’s pretty easy to think of non-biological reasons why women haven’t played pool as much as men, like pool happening in the past in men’s clubs and other places where women weren’t really welcomed. Even if there are gender differences in competitiveness, those differences don’t need to be biological. There definitely are differences in aggression, and they probably are at least partly biological (i.e., testosterone), but I think there’s a pretty big leap from that to pool playing. There’s a real but small difference in spatial ability, but who knows if it’s biological, and I doubt it could account for the differences in top pool players.

Finally, when you’re talking about the top pool players, all the theories about differences between men and women go out the window, IMO, because you’re talking literally about maybe a couple hundred people in the world rather than average differences between men and women as a whole.
 
Finally, when you’re talking about the top pool players, all the theories about differences between men and women go out the window, IMO, because you’re talking literally about maybe a couple hundred people in the world rather than average differences between men and women as a whole.

Well, I have no predefined preference about women achieving the same performance level as men.. Those higher education yokels did.In addition, I never said women's intelligence level was any less than men. I said their top physical performance level was. (And in the chess example I gave, there are actual physical things in the brain that work better in master level players.)

And on the point quoted above, we'll just have to agree to disagree. These couple of hundred players are the outliers of their specific genders. They likely represent some measurable percentage of the population as a whole. One can make a guess that the outlier percentage would be the same for males as it would for females, hence, we can extrapolate that the physical talent would be equally divided, as there are approximately the same amount of men as women on earth.

This means that one would expect that the high athletic talent numbers are equal amongst men and women. In no sport or game is this so. In any country.

For your supposition to be true that there are "other forces" responsible for female lack of pursuit of sport, one would have to assume that women have the same aggressive/competitive tendencies as men, and that societies in every country across the globe "hold them back" from competing. I don't think anyone here would agree that women are anywhere near as competitive or aggressive as men.

Given all the research and nature documentaries I have watched, and seeing the same behavior we exhibit as humans repeated hundreds of times in nature, across hundreds of different species, I am gonna stick with my statement that men are genetically programmed to be competitive and aggressive, and women are not. The female outliers that have "more" of this special sauce have "more"... As compared to other females. But their outlier status still puts them second rung (or third/fourth/fifth) as compared to the top male performers.

I have been around a lot of the top pros from time to time.. And to a man, they are some pretty intense, rawly competitive and aggressive dudes. Even Alex P. He puts on a smile and laughs a lot, but I saw someone question his advice once, and he immediately responded in only a half joking way, with a VERY hard edge at the end, "Oh, I'm just a world champion, what de **** do I know, right?"

I have honestly never met a women like that. And I have certainly never watched nor seen a woman on T.V. that could approach the things I have seen Alex do on the table. Ask Jay Helfert about Alex's 15-and-out needing 15 in a trap One Pocket proposition bet that Jay had gotten multiple pros on that year at Derby.
 
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Well, I have no predefined preference about women achieving the same performance level as men.. Those higher education yokels did.In addition, I never said women's intelligence level was any less than men. I said their top physical performance level was. (And in the chess example I gave, there are actual physical things in the brain that work better in master level players.)
If you look at some of the old claims for innate differences, they’re very scientific sounding and I think the people who claimed them believed they were just being fair and honest.


And on the point quoted above, we'll just have to agree to disagree. These couple of hundred players are the outliers of their specific genders. They likely represent some measurable percentage of the population as a whole. One can make a guess that the outlier percentage would be the same for males as it would for females, hence, we can extrapolate that the physical talent would be equally divided, as there are approximately the same amount of men as women on earth.

You should check out the “male variability hypothesis.” The idea is that men and women can have about the same average on some trait, but you’ll find more men at both tails of the distribution - very high and very low performers. That would be a way that the top pool players could be men even if the average abilities in the population are about the same.

Given all the research and nature documentaries I have watched, and seeing the same behavior we exhibit as humans repeated hundreds of times in nature, across hundreds of different species, I am gonna stick with my statement that men are genetically programmed to be competitive and aggressive, and women are not. The female outliers that have "more" of this special sauce have "more"... As compared to other females. But their outlier status still puts them second rung (or third/fourth/fifth) as compared to the top male performers.
I’m trying to ignore the comment that “I’ve watched some Animal Planet and now I’ve come to a grand conclusion about gender differences in human biology,” but it’s tough. :p

But I’ve gotta say: If you don’t think women can be competitive and aggressive, you just don’t know enough women. :p
 
Well, I have no predefined preference about women achieving the same performance level as men.. Those higher education yokels did.In addition, I never said women's intelligence level was any less than men. I said their top physical performance level was. (And in the chess example I gave, there are actual physical things in the brain that work better in master level players.)

And on the point quoted above, we'll just have to agree to disagree. These couple of hundred players are the outliers of their specific genders. They likely represent some measurable percentage of the population as a whole. One can make a guess that the outlier percentage would be the same for males as it would for females, hence, we can extrapolate that the physical talent would be equally divided, as there are approximately the same amount of men as women on earth.

This means that one would expect that the high athletic talent numbers are equal amongst men and women. In no sport or game is this so. In any country.

For your supposition to be true that there are "other forces" responsible for female lack of pursuit of sport, one would have to assume that women have the same aggressive/competitive tendencies as men, and that societies in every country across the globe "hold them back" from competing. I don't think anyone here would agree that women are anywhere near as competitive or aggressive as men.

Given all the research and nature documentaries I have watched, and seeing the same behavior we exhibit as humans repeated hundreds of times in nature, across hundreds of different species, I am gonna stick with my statement that men are genetically programmed to be competitive and aggressive, and women are not. The female outliers that have "more" of this special sauce have "more"... As compared to other females. But their outlier status still puts them second rung (or third/fourth/fifth) as compared to the top male performers.

I have been around a lot of the top pros from time to time.. And to a man, they are some pretty intense, rawly competitive and aggressive dudes. Even Alex P. He puts on a smile and laughs a lot, but I saw someone question his advice once, and he immediately responded in only a half joking way, with a VERY hard edge at the end, "Oh, I'm just a world champion, what de **** do I know, right?"

I have honestly never met a women like that. And I have certainly never watched nor seen a woman on T.V. that could approach the things I have seen Alex do on the table. Ask Jay Helfert about Alex's 15-and-out needing 15 in a trap One Pocket proposition bet that Jay had gotten multiple pros on that year at Derby.


Russ, what you have written was very well articulated and presented. This is a difficult subject to tackle these days because so many do not want to be honest with the facts.

I was reading about a similar debate in regards to women in STEM related fields and how the consensus is that there is not enough women employed in the science, tech, engineering and mathematic disciplines. So much so that colleges and companies are trying to find ways to increase the female numbers when in reality the fact is that young women entering college just aren't interested in those fields like the men are and gravitate towards other subjects.

Bringing it back to pool and the subject of this thread....I believe China is a perfect example in that they offer high level pool training/teaching/playing to both men and women in an equal playing field. There's also a giant pool of human beings 1.37 billion people.
I'm the end, the result are some really stellar players, both men and women.
Siming Chen is clearly a product of this system.

I hope next World Cup of Pool, China will enter a team of Siming Chen 790 and Sha Sha Liu 774. The results would be interesting to say the least.

Also leading to Russ's point...about competitive women....I've always wondered with all her talent Siming Chen just doesn't go all in and start playing men's major tournaments. The payouts are better and deeper in the field.
I'll be watching for her to play in the very least the US Open and China open next year. Will she go aggressive and for the top prizes or play it safe?
 
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