Simonis 860HR Shortage?

Deruki said:
It will be interesting to see if Simonis can fully recover from this after so many people are forced to use other less expensive cloth and find it's as good or better in so many ways. Demand may soon equal supply.
Click to expand...
This is an excellent point.

I've never played on Champion (that I know of); but, I can tell you that the fabric engineer at Champion with whom I spoke - very nice fellow, btw - told me when I asked: "Yes, since their flood (Simonis) we have been incredibly busy keeping up with the high level of demand for our pool table cloths."

So, the questions becomes: How many will go back to using Simonis when their supply issues are resolved; and, how many folks will remain with their newly discovered preferred 'forced replacement' cloth?

This should be very interesting to see what happens when people make up their minds for themselves - on their own tables at-home or in their local pool hall - when freed of the influence excessive sponsorship, saturation marketing, and institutional devotion to the notion that "There can only be one."

Here's a personal Case-in-Point:

Back around 2005, it was time to re-do the bed and rails. I called my guy up to schedule him to come out. He told me he didn't have any 760 in my color at his shop at the time, but he could have it in a few weeks; or, he could come out later that very same week with brand ______ cloth, which he felt was a perfectly fine analog to Simonis 760, and less expensive to me.

Now understand, I had known this man for years, trusted his advice and professional opinion on all matters of cue, cushion, and cloth, above all others, trusted him with his crew alone in not just my business, but also my home, etc; he was stellar mechanic, ran his own hall and repair shop for 'forever', BUT, for me to consider trying 'some other brand' cloth - regardless of the trusted endorsement - I wasn't having it.

Was this a question of me being so marketing brain-washed, or so insecure about my game, to think that a different cloth would instantly cripple my skill-set?

No.

What I now realize - at least for myself - I have been a 30-ish year slave to Simonis simply because I didn't know beans about 'cloth' as a textile or textile science when relating to billiard tables, and, didn't know how to compare/consider a different cloth without rolling the dice by paying for an install of an unknown performer - and taking a blind chance of being VERY unhappy.

I do know this: One reason why I never balked at the price of Simonis compared other cloths - which claim to be just as good and cost less - was that paying more for Simonis meant I was assured I was getting the same quality product and performance; and without any possibility of deviation or disappointment.

Anyway, like I said, it's going to be VERY interesting to see how this thing plays out in the market when Simonis gets their supply chain moving again. - GJ
 
Last edited:
GentlemanJames said:
This is an excellent point.

I've never played on Champion (that I know of); but, I can tell you that the fabric engineer at Champion with whom I spoke - very nice fellow, btw - told me when I asked: "Yes, since their flood (Simonis) we have been incredibly busy keeping up with the high level of demand for our pool table cloths."

So, the questions becomes: How many will go back to using Simonis when their supply issues are resolved; and, how many folks will remain with their newly discovered preferred 'forced replacement' cloth?

This should be very interesting to see what happens when people make up their minds for themselves - on their own tables at-home or in their local pool hall - when freed of the influence excessive sponsorship, saturation marketing, and institutional devotion to the notion that "There can only be one."

Here's a personal Case-in-Point:

Back around 2005, it was time to re-do the bed and rails. I called my guy up to schedule him to come out. He told me he didn't had any 760 in my color at his shop at the time, but he could have it in a few weeks; or, he could come out later that very same week with brand ______ cloth, which he felt was a perfectly fine analog to Simonis 760, and less expensive to me.

Now understand, I had known this man for years, trusted his advice and professional opinion on all matters of cue, cushion, and cloth, above all others, trusted him with his crew alone in not just my business, but also my home, etc; he was stellar mechanic, ran his own hall and repair shop for 'forever', BUT, for me to consider trying 'some other brand' cloth - regardless of the trusted endorsement - I wasn't having it.

Was this a question of me being so marketing brain-washed, or so insecure about my game, to think that a different cloth would instantly cripple my skill-set?

No.

What I now realize - at least for myself - I have been a 30-ish year slave to Simonis simply because I didn't know beans about 'cloth' as a textile or textile science when relating to billiard tables, and, didn't know how to compare/consider a different cloth without rolling the dice by paying for an install of an unknown performer - and taking a blind chance of being VERY unhappy.

I do know this: One reason why I never balked at the price of Simonis compared other cloths - which claim to be just as good and cost less - was that paying more for Simonis meant I was assured I was getting the same quality product and performance; and without any possibility of deviation or disappointment.

Anyway, like I said, it's going to be VERY interesting to see how this thing plays out in the market when Simonis gets their supply chain moving again. - GJ
Click to expand...

I was dead set on getting Simonis. In light of the shortage, I went with Gorina because I installed Gorina on the table I had when I was a teenager and didn't have the money for Simonis. I doubt I will ever shop Simonis again. I may well recover my table every 12-18mos, but I'll probably stick with Gorina.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
I was dead set on getting Simonis. In light of the shortage, I went with Gorina because I installed Gorina on the table I had when I was a teenager and didn't have the money for Simonis. I doubt I will ever shop Simonis again. I may well recover my table every 12-18mos, but I'll probably stick with Gorina.
Click to expand...
Gorina is a great cloth. Installs easily, and plays great.
 
ANDY988 is very close to HR in terms of speed. Not as good of a deal as it once was but its very good cloth. My local room had it on for a couple yrs and i thought it played/lasted great. I live in a humid spot(Okla) and the ANDY did a pretty good job of maintaining its speed. Of course it slowed some but not as bad as reg. 860 does. Good price on it: https://shopeasternbilliards.com/products/andy-cloth-988?variant=41320538800308 Most places its around $280 for 9ft.
 
I have always used Simonis 860 on my table. The burn marks would show up way too soon. I just got used to them as a fact of life. After reading the comments I think I'm going to try the Championship Tour Edition on my next recovering. I change it every 2 years.
 
RickLafayette said:
I have always used Simonis 860 on my table. The burn marks would show up way too soon. I just got used to them as a fact of life. After reading the comments I think I'm going to try the Championship Tour Edition on my next recovering. I change it every 2 years.
Click to expand...
I am going to try to get to MisCue South in Toledo in the next few weeks. Trent put 3030 Tour Edition on their tables. I would like to see it myself.

I actually wanted to put 3030 on our Gold Crown, but my brother insisted on 860 HR.
 
Last edited:
DeeDeeCues said:
I like my Gorina tournament cloth, but it has a ton of marks after 6 weeks.
Click to expand...
Deruki said:
It will be interesting to see if Simonis can fully recover from this after so many people are forced to use other less expensive cloth and find it's as good or better in so many ways. Demand may soon equal supply.
Click to expand...
Over the years I’ve tried switching to Gorina and Andy (comparable quality and speed blends) for our poolroom. I’ve always come back to Simonis 860HR. The price difference is a minor factor for me, in the big picture!

Having the same long term Simonis account rep for 25 years, and knowing I’m getting the best $ price they can give me on my orders certainly hasn’t hurt!
 
ChrisinNC said:
Over the years I’ve tried switching to Gorina and Andy (comparable quality and speed blends) for our poolroom. I’ve always come back to Simonis 860HR. The price difference is a minor factor for me, in the big picture!

Having the same long term Simonis account rep for 25 years, and knowing I’m getting the best $ price they can give me on my orders certainly hasn’t hurt!
Click to expand...
Did you ever have Gorina on the Gabriel tables?
 
garczar said:
Heard good things about this cloth. https://www.classicbilliards.net/pool-table-felt-cloth/proform.html $260 for a 9ft. pretty sure its asian sourced. Better price: https://www.billiardwarehouse.com/accessories/proform_505_billiard_cloth.htm
Click to expand...
Interesting find, GARCARZ. What I find most interesting about Pro Form 5088, is that Billiard Warehouse describes that cloth as being comparable to Simonis 860; and yet, has a totally different blend-ratio than 860 - and according to the numbers is more in-line with Simonis 860HR.

Simonis 860: 90% Wool 10% Nylon, 23oz.,

Whereas,

Pro Form 5088: 70% Wool 30% Nylon 23oz., is actually closer to the weight and blend ratio for Simonis 860HR: 70% Wool, 30% Nylon 24oz. , Championship Tournament 3030: 70% Wool, 30% Nylon, 24oz., Andy 900: 75% Wool, 25% Nylon, 24oz., and, Predator Arcadia Reserve: 70% Wool, 30% Nylon+ 22oz.

Once again, two critical elements are left unknown (except in the case of Championship being a 2x2 weave) is the Weave Pattern used to create the cloth, and, the QC/Workmanship/Durability. The Weave Pattern is quantifiable and objective; whereas, the the QC/workmanship/wear is variable and subjective - variable based on quality of manufacture (which could even change from bolt to bold of the same fabric depending on the quality control levels) - and, subject to how gentle or aggressive the level of friction the cloth is subject to - Which will be different for all of us.

I'd like to get small sample swatches from all the different billiard cloths for pool tables that I can round-up, and send them over to either the Philadelphia Textile College at Jefferson, or, FIT in NYC, and have those learned people examine, comparatively evaluate, and determine these textiles in wholly quantified and standardized terms which their industry uses.

Of course a textile educated person cannot tell us the serviceability of a particular cloth for playing pool on; but, their information would absolutely describe exactly what one cloth under consideration is - and, is not - compared to a competitors' cloth.

It's interesting that when it comes to buying things like a new wall-unit air-conditioner or a couple of new tires, ALL the comparative specs are spelled out in exacting detail for the consumer; yet, when it comes to describing billiard cloth, not so much.

That should be changed.

After all, the fabric description is not a trade-secret. Textile people can tell huge amounts of information about a cloth - and, sometimes just by looking at it and feeling it (ever been to a really good tailor?), which we ignorant pool players have no clue about - unless we get ALL the numbers from the manufacturer prior to purchase and installation. - GJ
 
Last edited:
JoeEdmisten said:
Did you ever have Gorina on the Gabriel tables?
Click to expand...
No, the Granito 2000 Gorina was in the early years on the Connelly Ultimate tables. I really liked the Andy pro cloth. The only problem I found with it was that to the touch it felt like 1500 grit sandpaper, and the inevitable stains would not come out of it nearly as well as they do with Simonis.

Also, the $ price for it increased significantly when my Southeast distributor account rep sold out his business to someone else, to the point that it was the same cost if not more than the Simonis.
 
Deruki said:
We just put this on the two diamonds at where I play league yesterday and visually I can't tell the difference We will see how it plays and holds up when it breaks in. $260 for both 7 foot tables. $130 each
Click to expand...

Hope you like it! I've put it on a bunch of tables, and it plays good.


ZQ26jmH.jpeg
 
GentlemanJames said:
I do know this: One reason why I never balked at the price of Simonis compared other cloths - which claim to be just as good and cost less - was that paying more for Simonis meant I was assured I was getting the same quality product and performance; and without any possibility of deviation or disappointment.
Anyway, like I said, it's going to be VERY interesting to see how this thing plays out in the market when Simonis gets their supply chain moving again. - GJ
Click to expand...
My main concern is how the new equipment works. They produced some of the 860HR on different looms before they got the new stuff working and it was not the same as it used to be. It stretched differently, and the weave and texture was a little different.
 
Sheldon said:
My main concern is how the new equipment works. They produced some of the 860HR on different looms before they got the new stuff working and it was not the same as it used to be. It stretched differently, and the weave and texture was a little different.
Click to expand...
That is very interesting to learn, SHELDON.

First, I cannot personally speak to Simonis 860HR 'fit, finish, and stretch' inconsistencies, as I'm a long-time 760 man myself, and have no personal experience with 860HR; however, what I found most interesting about your comment, was something the Championship fabric engineer said to me during our conversation - where he stressed about the consistency of the stretch of their 3030 and 3020 product.

Since we were talking other properties of their cloth in comparison to Simonis, I felt it was sort of random that he would introduce the topic of even and consistent stretch and emphasize it; but, having read your post about past inconsistencies in the production and stretch of 860HR, now his comment makes more sense to me.

Learn something new everyday. Thanks. - GJ
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top