Simonis cloth shadows HELP

[K2Kraze]

Hello everyone --- a friend's Simonis 860 (Simonis GREEN) install on a GC has shadow lines - second install - same problem - same guys. They have followed the recommended install techniques that RKC produced to perfection - and they've not seen this problem before on any Simonis install they can remember mostly because 99% of their customers are using Championship or using the blue Simonis.

The Simonis rep/distributor state-side is baffled. Their canned answer is that the lines and shadows will slowly disappear after (blank) weeks. We tried that. 8 weeks and no change - thus they are installing new cloth today. Same issue. I know - must be the installers. But not one customer has seen this on their table using same crew different cloth like I said.

Another easy answer - switch to Championship or some other manufacturer that doesn't leave lines and shadows. Or another Simonis 860 color. Uh huh - those are bandaid fixes - we're looking for something we're missing.

Any ideas?

Thought I would post on the general forum vs ask the mechanic section to get a larger audience and more input.

Thanks everyone!!



LIVFST

 

[playonepocket]

It appears that the installers did not properly index the cloth before stretching and attaching it.

The dark lines appear in positions along the table where the cloth is attached. The "light areas" are where the cloth is not stretched as tightly.

The key is uniformity.

Also, in looking at your photos it would appear that the installer didn't tack down an anchor side before attaching the stretch side. If they had, you wouldn't be seeing shadows on both sides of the table. The RKC/Simonis videos cover this...

I suggest re-posting this in the talk to a mechanic section. However, I'm fairly certain their responses will closely mirror my own.

Good luck.

 

[K2Kraze]

playonepocket - it would appear so that the guys didn't do the anchor or indexing or attaching or stretching correctly - but like I said in the OP, things were done exactly as Glen had instructed on the install DVDs - thus we are baffled.


LIVFST

 

[Allen Brown]

That looks more like wrinkles than shadows to me.

 

[PoolTable911]

Hello everyone --- a friend's Simonis 860 (Simonis GREEN) install on a GC has shadow lines - second install - same problem - same guys. They have followed the recommended install techniques that RKC produced to perfection - and they've not seen this problem before on any Simonis install they can remember mostly because 99% of their customers are using Championship or using the blue Simonis.

The Simonis rep/distributor state-side is baffled. Their canned answer is that the lines and shadows will slowly disappear after (blank) weeks. We tried that. 8 weeks and no change - thus they are installing new cloth today. Same issue. I know - must be the installers. But not one customer has seen this on their table using same crew different cloth like I said.

Another easy answer - switch to Championship or some other manufacturer that doesn't leave lines and shadows. Or another Simonis 860 color. Uh huh - those are bandaid fixes - we're looking for something we're missing.

Any ideas?

Thought I would post on the general forum vs ask the mechanic section to get a larger audience and more input.

Thanks everyone!!
View attachment 398596View attachment 398597


LIVFST

Was cloth stapled or glued?

 

[Black-Balled]

Picture's worth a thousand words...

 

[K2Kraze]

Follow up --

Those were not wrinkles. They were shadows.

No glue used. Staples only.

The fix: long story shortened....they worked from the side pockets toward each end removing staples and re-stretching the cloth as they went. 99% of the shadows disappeared. Leveled perfectly and using both a stimpmeter and slow shots, it rolls perfectly. Two barely discernible and small shadows near the side pockets remain and Simonis rep says they should disappear within "a few weeks". 99% perfect.

 

[alphadog]

Stretching cloth is like flying a plane* watching a video while doing it is not the same as having experiance.

 

[realkingcobra]

It's installed wrong period! It's over stretched side to side and under stretched end to end. If the cloth being stretched side to side is stretched more than 1 3/4" then it's to tight. I've installed way to much cloth over the years and I'm telling you flat out its wrong. I don't care if they said they did it according to my DVDs, if they DID, it wouldn't look like that.

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Hello everyone --- a friend's Simonis 860 (Simonis GREEN) install on a GC has shadow lines - second install - same problem - same guys. They have followed the recommended install techniques that RKC produced to perfection - and they've not seen this problem before on any Simonis install they can remember mostly because 99% of their customers are using Championship or using the blue Simonis.

The Simonis rep/distributor state-side is baffled. Their canned answer is that the lines and shadows will slowly disappear after (blank) weeks. We tried that. 8 weeks and no change - thus they are installing new cloth today. Same issue. I know - must be the installers. But not one customer has seen this on their table using same crew different cloth like I said.

Another easy answer - switch to Championship or some other manufacturer that doesn't leave lines and shadows. Or another Simonis 860 color. Uh huh - those are bandaid fixes - we're looking for something we're missing.

Any ideas?

Thought I would post on the general forum vs ask the mechanic section to get a larger audience and more input.

Thanks everyone!!
View attachment 398596View attachment 398597


LIVFST

Are those pictures from both sides of the slate?

 

[realkingcobra]

Hello everyone --- a friend's Simonis 860 (Simonis GREEN) install on a GC has shadow lines - second install - same problem - same guys. They have followed the recommended install techniques that RKC produced to perfection - and they've not seen this problem before on any Simonis install they can remember mostly because 99% of their customers are using Championship or using the blue Simonis.

The Simonis rep/distributor state-side is baffled. Their canned answer is that the lines and shadows will slowly disappear after (blank) weeks. We tried that. 8 weeks and no change - thus they are installing new cloth today. Same issue. I know - must be the installers. But not one customer has seen this on their table using same crew different cloth like I said.

Another easy answer - switch to Championship or some other manufacturer that doesn't leave lines and shadows. Or another Simonis 860 color. Uh huh - those are bandaid fixes - we're looking for something we're missing.

Any ideas?

Thought I would post on the general forum vs ask the mechanic section to get a larger audience and more input.

Thanks everyone!!
View attachment 398596View attachment 398597


LIVFST

No way, looking at the stretch in the corner pockets, that cloth was installed end to end first, then stretched side to side, starting with the side pockets first. They didn't mark out the cloth for stretching it either, they couldn't have. Don't pay for that shit work, they flat out lied to you, they don't know what they're doing.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

It's installed wrong period! It's over stretched side to side and under stretched end to end. If the cloth being stretched side to side is stretched more than 1 3/4" then it's to tight. I've installed way to much cloth over the years and I'm telling you flat out its wrong. I don't care if they said they did it according to my DVDs, if they DID, it wouldn't look like that.

Glen

If the cloth is too tight, will his table play super fast? Could he prefer it that way?
Is there a test he could do to judge the tightness?

It seems he's happy with the table now.

 

[realkingcobra]

If the cloth is too tight, will his table play super fast? Could he prefer it that way?
Is there a test he could do to judge the tightness?

Tight and correctly installed is two different things. Cloth can be installed so tight it plays like an ice skating rink and still not show the stretch shadows that can be seen on this table.

 

[K2Kraze]

Well, Glen, I'm telling you that both installations on this table by the same crew followed your DVD instructions to the T. I witnessed it both times.

Here's the backstory.

The owner of my local long-running billiard supply store has become a friend of mine. I wanted to have my table recovered earlier this year and when I spoke with him about his shop doing my new Simonis installation, we talked for a bit about techniques his crews use on all cloth recover work - since I do own and have watched your DVDs numerous times before I went into this. He showed me the same DVDs he uses for his crews and that this would be a great time for them all to sit down and do a refresher training class at the shop. Which they did. They even did an in-house floor model recover on a new Brunswick to make sure his guys were indeed following the recommended procedures the way you explained and demonstrated. It came out beautifully.

On to my table. Using Simonis 860 mocha for mine, (same crew) it came out perfectly.

So my friend decided it was time for his recover.

Simonis 860 green.

First install. Followed the install perfectly. I was there.

Shadows like the photos I posted. Guys baffled. Simonis gets involved after seeing pics and a few phone calls. They think it may be an issue with that bolt of cloth. Let's replace it with another batch of 860 green. 7 weeks later.....

Exact same procedures. The way it has always been done. Per your DVD instruction. You saw the pics. Same result. Everyone still perplexed. So the guys say what the heck ---- let's use a different approach and over the next hour or so and re-stretch it.

So - your comments about it being installed incorrectly is way off, Glen. I have detailed notes from your DVDs and can assure you they followed them precisely. Both times. And NO, it was NOT stretched end to end first. And YES they did mark it perfectly. They didn't lie about anything. There were many others present that can attest to that.

I agree with your comment "tight and correctly installed are two different things."

Based on what I witnessed on three total installs using 860 in two different colors with the same crew using the same procedures, I was miffed on the issues with the GC install.

In the end, my friend is happy. It looks and rolls perfectly now. Here are the follow up pics...

 

[realkingcobra]

Well, Glen, I'm telling you that both installations on this table by the same crew followed your DVD instructions to the T. I witnessed it both times.

Here's the backstory.

The owner of my local long-running billiard supply store has become a friend of mine. I wanted to have my table recovered earlier this year and when I spoke with him about his shop doing my new Simonis installation, we talked for a bit about techniques his crews use on all cloth recover work - since I do own and have watched your DVDs numerous times before I went into this. He showed me the same DVDs he uses for his crews and that this would be a great time for them all to sit down and do a refresher training class at the shop. Which they did. They even did an in-house floor model recover on a new Brunswick to make sure his guys were indeed following the recommended procedures the way you explained and demonstrated. It came out beautifully.

On to my table. Using Simonis 860 mocha for mine, (same crew) it came out perfectly.

So my friend decided it was time for his recover.

Simonis 860 green.

First install. Followed the install perfectly. I was there.

Shadows like the photos I posted. Guys baffled. Simonis gets involved after seeing pics and a few phone calls. They think it may be an issue with that bolt of cloth. Let's replace it with another batch of 860 green. 7 weeks later.....

Exact same procedures. The way it has always been done. Per your DVD instruction. You saw the pics. Same result. Everyone still perplexed. So the guys say what the heck ---- let's use a different approach and over the next hour or so and re-stretch it.

So - your comments about it being installed incorrectly is way off, Glen. I have detailed notes from your DVDs and can assure you they followed them precisely. Both times. And NO, it was NOT stretched end to end first. And YES they did mark it perfectly. They didn't lie about anything. There were many others present that can attest to that.

I agree with your comment "tight and correctly installed are two different things."

Based on what I witnessed on three total installs using 860 in two different colors with the same crew using the same procedures, I was miffed on the issues with the GC install.

In the end, my friend is happy. It looks and rolls perfectly now. Here are the follow up pics...

Were the first two pictures you posted showing both sides of the slate?

 

[K2Kraze]

Yes sir. Looking from each side. Same end. It looked the same from the other end as well. Same for the sides.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes sir. Looking from each side. Same end. It looked the same from the other end as well. Same for the sides.

So there was stretch shadows on both sides of the slate, is that what you're saying?

 

[fastone371]

Is that blue or green cloth?
I am not a table mechanic but I did my own GCII with the DVD with no problem. I had all of my index marks marked out on the cloth in magic marker using a ruler like the DVD shows. I did have a tough time stretching it because the cloth was only about 2" bigger than table when it was relaxed laying over slate, not sure if this is normal or not. There are some Diamond youtube videos showing them putting cloth on tables, they were able to roll up the cloth and stretch by hand, there was no way you could do that with mine. I did mine in dark green or tournament green, the classic green that used to be on all tables. 2 things I notice about the green. I can see real light shadows on mine from one direction only and you have to look for them, and the green also seems to show burn marks and rail groove lines a lot easier than the blue. Its seems that the darker color will show flaws a lot easier than tournament blue. I have contacted some people on AZB here and will hopefully have them come up to recover my table real soon, maybe in blue this time.

 

[K2Kraze]

So there was stretch shadows on both sides of the slate, is that what you're saying?

Yes. Did you see the pics I posted Glen - and read the posts? Both sides. Entire length.

 

[K2Kraze]

Is that blue or green cloth?
I am not a table mechanic but I did my own GCII with the DVD with no problem. I had all of my index marks marked out on the cloth in magic marker using a ruler like the DVD shows. I did have a tough time stretching it because the cloth was only about 2" bigger than table when it was relaxed laying over slate, not sure if this is normal or not. There are some Diamond youtube videos showing them putting cloth on tables, they were able to roll up the cloth and stretch by hand, there was no way you could do that with mine. I did mine in dark green or tournament green, the classic green that used to be on all tables. 2 things I notice about the green. I can see real light shadows on mine from one direction only and you have to look for them, and the green also seems to show burn marks and rail groove lines a lot easier than the blue. Its seems that the darker color will show flaws a lot easier than tournament blue. I have contacted some people on AZB here and will hopefully have them come up to recover my table real soon, maybe in blue this time.

That is Simonis 860 GREEN.