No, I don't argue with words. Video that came with the book doesn't work. Got an extra you can send me?
Simple aiming system
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Yes, to make a new DVD will be $150--I don't have a burner--or we can trade for video of you playing pool.
Your question is a non sequitur. We were referring to a book, not my words on this thread.
You are right about nipping thin cuts instead of whiffing them. However, with the below:
You will constantly see D, C and B players overcutting the 5-ball short of the corner pocket into the long rail. Some reasons:
Throw: They subconsciously learn throw on correct geometric hits then overcompensate with aim
Speed: " " and shoot fast to kill throw, squirting (or swerving/slashing) away from the contact point on a miss
Stance: I can align my body and bridge hand on the line of centers and adjust the stick very slightly through the bridge to score the shot, others try to turn their whole body to move the cue over for the cut and overdo their adjustment
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snookered_again
Well-known member
on the snooker table I play on those corners are so tight and very unforgivable, Corner shots that look so simple can be frustratingly difficult.
would you put some left on that shot to try to cancel the cut induced throw? I guess that's basically a 1/2 ball shot that you have illustrated.
a very thin cut that I'm often surprisingly able to make is when the blue is on it's spot( int he middle of the table) and the CB is offset maybe 6" to a foot or so off the middle and near one end or the other.. If I shoot hard and barely nick it I can get it in the side, the corners are way tighter.
Ill shoot quite hard and send the CB just rolling at pocket weight and the CB will go end to end a few times since it barely lost any energy, on a cut that thin, the difference between it working and a miss is only maybe a mm or less. a miss is 5 points lost. it's therefore tempting to err on the side of caution. hence an overcut.
Where the CB stops after going end to end so much is a bit hard to control. Its a bit "dangerous" because I can miss and if I do it may lead to a setup by the CB being basically out of my control.
I cant explain how cut induced throw affects that, id probably just shoot centerball , but it needs to be a hard shot to get enough energy into the blue to make it there.
I can increase the sped of the Blue and shoot a little lighter if I spin in the direction that the edge of the CB is hitting the blue at an increased speed, throwing it towards the pocket, but then I have the spin induced throw and that's a bit more complicated. I'm more likely to miss if I do that perhaps because I need to learn to compensate more in my aim. Its possible to miss simply by attempting to get too "fancy."
conversely, If I were to send the CB in the opposite direction so the CB is travelling more slowly at the point of contact, maybe I could aim a bit more towards the ball, thus erring on the side of caution more. it might be possible to make the shot and hit more of the ball because the throw is then sort of working to advantage..
would you put some left on that shot to try to cancel the cut induced throw? I guess that's basically a 1/2 ball shot that you have illustrated.
a very thin cut that I'm often surprisingly able to make is when the blue is on it's spot( int he middle of the table) and the CB is offset maybe 6" to a foot or so off the middle and near one end or the other.. If I shoot hard and barely nick it I can get it in the side, the corners are way tighter.
Ill shoot quite hard and send the CB just rolling at pocket weight and the CB will go end to end a few times since it barely lost any energy, on a cut that thin, the difference between it working and a miss is only maybe a mm or less. a miss is 5 points lost. it's therefore tempting to err on the side of caution. hence an overcut.
Where the CB stops after going end to end so much is a bit hard to control. Its a bit "dangerous" because I can miss and if I do it may lead to a setup by the CB being basically out of my control.
I cant explain how cut induced throw affects that, id probably just shoot centerball , but it needs to be a hard shot to get enough energy into the blue to make it there.
I can increase the sped of the Blue and shoot a little lighter if I spin in the direction that the edge of the CB is hitting the blue at an increased speed, throwing it towards the pocket, but then I have the spin induced throw and that's a bit more complicated. I'm more likely to miss if I do that perhaps because I need to learn to compensate more in my aim. Its possible to miss simply by attempting to get too "fancy."
conversely, If I were to send the CB in the opposite direction so the CB is travelling more slowly at the point of contact, maybe I could aim a bit more towards the ball, thus erring on the side of caution more. it might be possible to make the shot and hit more of the ball because the throw is then sort of working to advantage..
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I can give you simple rules of thumb to make your processes easier.
For the illustration, I want to be the "cut master" and score that with vertical axis only. Or the pro way is to aim the OB to either side of the pocket then "enlarge" the pocket with english. If you start using english to counteract throw only, you enter the danger zone of complicating the shots, as you wrote.
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The same way CJ says his TOI technique “enlarges the margin for error” - an idea that’s been debunked as illogical nonsense. At least you didn’t (yet) try to justify it by comparing it with golf shots like he does.
pj
chgo
I'm not being dogmatic here, but I can explain the theory. You’re familiar with it, but snookered_again might not be:
The professionals who use a lot of english claim that when they miss, it's typically because of too much right english, for example, on a ball being thrown intentionally left. Therefore, they aim for the right side of the pocket to account for slight misses, giving them the middle and left side of the pocket as a margin for error.
From my experience, the feel of a good right english stroke does make it seem like you won't miss to your left. However, aiming systems introduce subconscious adjustments.
As you've often pointed out, you still have to aim and hit point X precisely. So, it’s possible that this method is just a misunderstanding from pool pros who rely on feel without fully understanding the mechanics. Alternatively, there could be merit to it because if pros claim they aim for one tip of right English 100 times and achieve equal to or more than one tip 90 times, but less than one tip only 10 times, that’s compelling. Sheer math would make them aim at the right side of the pocket.
I understand this is anecdotal evidence, but I’ve seen professional friends demonstrate this method, calling each shot in advance and explaining how they aim away from the pocket to throw the balls in with spin. That said, I would advise most students against putting english on every shot, as it will prove for them a risky strategy.
Another nonsensical post. 1st of all, you'll very seldom, if ever, see B players doing the same things as D players. Lumping them all together and using the word 'constantly' is ridiculous.
Throw and speed---those concepts don't apply to D players, they don't have a clue. C players may or may not have a clue. B players are mostly aware and are working on things.
Stance---you're so far off base here it's not worth wasting words on it.
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How is that different from any shot with side spin? They all have to be "aim adjusted" for squirt/swerve. Calling the same old thing something new doesn't make it new or different - specifically, it doesn't create any new or bigger "margin for error". It's simply aiming for center pocket adjusted for squirt/swerve, as usual.
pj
chgo
snookered_again
Well-known member
Ive had people try to explain to me that ( using the graphic example above) they would try to aim for the horn of the pocket along the long side of the table. I think to compensate for throw. I'm trying to wrap my head around his concept.
I'd be tempted to give that shot some left to try to roll the 5 in without throwing it.
so I use some left, now the CB is spinning clockwise,
Overdoing it a bit and the spin transfers to the OB now it is rolling CCW ( counterclockwise) the reverse is true as well.
rotation may be ok if I'm hitting into the cheek on the short rail, with the 5 having CCW rotation it will try to climb in, If I hit on the other cheek ( the long rail) then a bit of CCW rotation might be favorable.
in practicality the rotation will also direct the CB a lot differently so some thought to that. where am I trying to go next ?
i think if you dont use much spin, you get better at compensating for the cut induced throw in the aim, If you do use a lot of spin you get better at predicting the outcome of the spin.. too much of anything isn't going to improve your game , particularily on the short term.
sometimes there is a time and a place for such experimentation. if playing partners then you can cause your partner to have to go sit down because you lost.. Ill practice those things more when its a one on one wiht a player in a situation where I'm able to screw up without disappointing others. at home on my own table I can experiment a lot.
I think i learn the most when i can stay a bit late after others have wrapped up and play with a player that can beat me hands down, some don't mind then , and we end up taking and giving tips during play. I find that in general if I do that they will say stuff that takes a few days to register and then it'll help after I learn what the heck they were talking about ;-)
I now guys that came from the 8 and 9 ball world and spin every shot and others who shoot a lot more centerball, and both have fairly equivalent results.. I think the guys good at spinning balls might have a bit of advantage as they can place the CB more favorably . They can make more eyebrow raising shots.
my aim now is to try to understand the mechanics and physics , Im not in a race to become the best, just my personal best. I think Im at a stage where most of the mechanics are making sense, but may be a little off on some important concepts.
we have a few carom games that we play , everyone enjoys them, Ive seen what some really great players can do with it thise loose balls become much like extra bumper cushions, Its so impresive to see a guy able to control all that with skill and precision. it becomes an obvious shot when you have another ball lurking near a pocket and see it as an opportunity, maybe to move it where you want and make the pocket. maybe to send the CB in a totally different direction than he'd be able to to if he simply pocketed the ball. maybe because he has a better chance of making the shot by using his carom abilities than straight in. I felt that carom helped a lot in seeing the opportunities, otherwise they appear as loose balls of no real advantage. I think carom helps a lot to reposition balls while making shots. organize the table to your advantage. separate locked up balls of yours or put the opponents ball in a disadvantageous positon in 8 ball
I'd be tempted to give that shot some left to try to roll the 5 in without throwing it.
so I use some left, now the CB is spinning clockwise,
Overdoing it a bit and the spin transfers to the OB now it is rolling CCW ( counterclockwise) the reverse is true as well.
rotation may be ok if I'm hitting into the cheek on the short rail, with the 5 having CCW rotation it will try to climb in, If I hit on the other cheek ( the long rail) then a bit of CCW rotation might be favorable.
in practicality the rotation will also direct the CB a lot differently so some thought to that. where am I trying to go next ?
i think if you dont use much spin, you get better at compensating for the cut induced throw in the aim, If you do use a lot of spin you get better at predicting the outcome of the spin.. too much of anything isn't going to improve your game , particularily on the short term.
sometimes there is a time and a place for such experimentation. if playing partners then you can cause your partner to have to go sit down because you lost.. Ill practice those things more when its a one on one wiht a player in a situation where I'm able to screw up without disappointing others. at home on my own table I can experiment a lot.
I think i learn the most when i can stay a bit late after others have wrapped up and play with a player that can beat me hands down, some don't mind then , and we end up taking and giving tips during play. I find that in general if I do that they will say stuff that takes a few days to register and then it'll help after I learn what the heck they were talking about ;-)
I now guys that came from the 8 and 9 ball world and spin every shot and others who shoot a lot more centerball, and both have fairly equivalent results.. I think the guys good at spinning balls might have a bit of advantage as they can place the CB more favorably . They can make more eyebrow raising shots.
my aim now is to try to understand the mechanics and physics , Im not in a race to become the best, just my personal best. I think Im at a stage where most of the mechanics are making sense, but may be a little off on some important concepts.
we have a few carom games that we play , everyone enjoys them, Ive seen what some really great players can do with it thise loose balls become much like extra bumper cushions, Its so impresive to see a guy able to control all that with skill and precision. it becomes an obvious shot when you have another ball lurking near a pocket and see it as an opportunity, maybe to move it where you want and make the pocket. maybe to send the CB in a totally different direction than he'd be able to to if he simply pocketed the ball. maybe because he has a better chance of making the shot by using his carom abilities than straight in. I felt that carom helped a lot in seeing the opportunities, otherwise they appear as loose balls of no real advantage. I think carom helps a lot to reposition balls while making shots. organize the table to your advantage. separate locked up balls of yours or put the opponents ball in a disadvantageous positon in 8 ball
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Nope. Line from cue ball needs to go thru pocket. Changes the contact point. Those 2 points, on cue ball and in OB need to make contact. Your cue ball line runs parallel if I'm not mistaken. That's not how this works.
It's very simple. 2 lines 2 spots. Connect the spots. For anyone struggling w aiming, this is for them. Pros all have their own, most rely on Instinct. This is for those players who scratch their heads over aiming systems.
My attempt to help simplify things. Albeit a naive one, at best.
Everyone is welcome to an opinion. Don't knock it until you try it is the best advice I can give anyone. Get on a table and draw some lines. Lol.
I can recommend a good laxative bob. You seem constipated.
Thank you very much. Someone who actually tried this b4 throwing the baby out w bathwater. Not trying to convince anyone. Only thing I'm trying to do is help simplify something that seems to give a tremendous # of players difficulty. Just try it. If it works for you, great. If not, that's cool too.
If the line thru the 2 ball was accurate, the shot falls. Any player can see that line is off in that representation. Move it where my system says to and the cut is way thinner. Changes the contact point.
Try it on a table. Not a keyboard!! IDK what else to tell you. Debate it til the cows come home. Not gonna alter the fact that this works and is accurate if done properly.
This is simple and got the players struggling w degrees and Supernatural placings, etc. Works w English as well, taking for granted you know your cue and how much it deflects on shots. 2 lines. 2 points.
Put em together and make the ball. Period.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I don't think that most people are saying it doesn't work, just it's not mathematically correct. Which to be fair neither is any aiming system, they negate things like friction, cling, etc. Physics that would take 5 pages to calculate.
I think it's a fine system and a good baseline. So what if you're subconsciously adjusting. It's a starting point like any aiming system. It gets you seeing things consistently which is a huge boon. Between that and staying down on the shot and watching what happens, this system is enough to go pro with.
Mathematically correct only gets you so far, then you have to get out of the muddy water and make a ball, still requiring subconscious adjustment. The things going on on a pool table are too complex to accurately understand as a human being. Sure math can be fun but you still have to pocket a ball, account for conditions, cling, humidity, etc, etc. I for one don't want to be thinking about fractions and diamonds and tips even though I understand that stuff.
Farther than mathematically incorrect, even if you're a pro.
Yes, aiming takes "feel"-based skill, which can help compensate for misperceiving the geometry. But with real knowledge that extra effort can go toward further improvement rather than compensating for misperceptions.
pj
chgo
You haven't really addressed any of my previous comments. That's OK.
I will say, and people can choose between your approach and mine, that Willie Mosconi's system is far, far more accurate than yours. It they try to make yours work -- and they apply it as you have described -- their games may never recover.
Here's the previous discussion from a few years ago. I urge anyone who still isn't clear on this to read it.
Nearest to farthest -- how bad is it?
Here is an aiming system. Like all aiming systems, it is not perfect. My question is: How bad is it? In particular what is the worst error you will have on common shots? What situations really cause it to break down? The system is this: There is a spot on the object ball that is the farthest...
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