Single or Double elimination...

grindz

grindz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been around for a while... started playing in the 60's, and caught the
bug in the late 70's. I didn't really get the chance to watch much tournament
pool back then, and have probably played in less than 50 tournaments in my
life.... They were ALL double elimination,.....

My question is.... when did this start? I know of round robins in the distant past,
and some current (14.1 just completed)…. Does single elimination not work?


Anyone care to share the history of the double elimination format??


td
 
grindz said:
I've been around for a while... started playing in the 60's, and caught the
bug in the late 70's. I didn't really get the chance to watch much tournament
pool back then, and have probably played in less than 50 tournaments in my
life.... They were ALL double elimination,.....

My question is.... when did this start? I know of round robins in the distant past,
and some current (14.1 just completed)…. Does single elimination not work?


Anyone care to share the history of the double elimination format??


td
Click to expand...
SE may be best with many players of similar skill level to complete the event in a reasonable time frame. If players are not of equal skill, for a SE format, it's preferable to seed the top players, so they don't end up playing and knocking each other out early in the draw, and potentially run the risk of ending up with some very lopsided matches in later rounds.

Many players just prefer DE, as that gives them a chance if they lose a match, and extends their staying alive in the tournament for a longer period, which for room owners gives them a longer time frame to spend money for food and drinks.
 
grindz said:
I've been around for a while... started playing in the 60's, and caught the
bug in the late 70's. I didn't really get the chance to watch much tournament
pool back then, and have probably played in less than 50 tournaments in my
life.... They were ALL double elimination,.....

My question is.... when did this start? I know of round robins in the distant past,
and some current (14.1 just completed)…. Does single elimination not work?


Anyone care to share the history of the double elimination format??


td
Click to expand...
I think it started with the US Open 14.1 in about 1966.

DE is a nasty format invented by thugs and forced on sheep who don't know any better.

If you want a fair amount of play for your entry fee, do groups (round robin) then SE. Or do single-elimination buy-back (multiple small, cheap SE qualifiers for the main SE tournament).
 
LowRight said:
Nice ad hominem attack.
Click to expand...

Which hominem was I attacking?

I think it was more along the lines of hyperbole. Too many readers will not notice you're there unless you punch them in the nose. I suppose I could have said instead, "I prefer other tournament formats, but some people seem to like DE."

I don't like to finish tournaments at 2AM. I don't like to have both my losses against a single person especially when the TD has the criss-crosses wrong. I don't like waiting around forever for my next match when one slow poke is clogging up the losers' bracket. And if they are playing real DE, I don't like finishing at 4AM when the slow poke comes through and plays in both final matches.
 
I agree that DE is generally terrible for a nightly amateur pool tournament, but think that it does make some sense for a large event that's meant to draw a crowd for multiple days.

I would love to see a round robin group feeding a SE bracket as a format for a pool tournament. Does anyone actually do that?

Another format that I've seen some success with is a sort of continuous round robin where players are eliminated after a certain number of losses.
 
For local weekly events, I absolutely HATE double elimination. They take FOREVER, and you are there until 5AM if you win the thing. One room I used to go to had 64 players every single week, start at 8pm, race to 5, SE, handicapped 9 ball. It would end at 3AM. Another room had the same start time, same race, and got maybe 16 to 20 or so players. But they did DE. They would end at 4 to 5AM.

For pro events with a 300 and up entry fee, I can see the appeal of a double elimination.

If everyone is truly of pro caliber player, then I'd like all pro events to be single elimination. The way it is today with a mix of pros and amateurs in most events, I'd be cool with double elimination until about 25% of the field remains, and then switch to single elimination.

I disagree that every player should be giving one loss in a DE to be "fair". DE is to weed out the weak players, until the remaining player are more close in skill. At that point, switching to SE is proper.

I also hate "true DE" where the winner's side has to be beaten twice.

Again, DE is not about giving every player an equal amount of losses. Its about weeding out the weaker players early, so only the stronger players remain.

IMO of course:):)
 
Matt said:
... I would love to see a round robin group feeding a SE bracket as a format for a pool tournament. Does anyone actually do that?
...
Click to expand...
Some world championships have been run that way. IIRC, the Matchroom 9-ball WCs were 16 groups of 8 with 4 advancing to a SE of 64 players.

The American Straight Pool Championships (in NYC this October) is groups of about six going to SE. In the past it has been 24 in the SE so if you finished in first in your group you got a bye in the first round of the SE.

The US National Snooker Championships are run in a RR/SE format also.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I also hate "true DE" where the winner's side has to be beaten twice.
Click to expand...

I prefer DE where everybody has to be beaten twice.

If you can't hang around until the tournament finishes, go bowling, or do something else, instead of entering the tournament. I played 20 hours straight, with no breaks, last Sunday until 2:00 AM Monday morning and then went to work at 4:00 AM. If you can't hang with the old dudes, then you need to take your vitamins or something.
 
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Thanks for your input....

Bob Jewett said:
I don't like to finish tournaments at 2AM. I don't like to have both my losses against a single person especially when the TD has the criss-crosses wrong. I don't like waiting around forever for my next match when one slow poke is clogging up the losers' bracket. And if they are playing real DE, I don't like finishing at 4AM when the slow poke comes through and plays in both final matches.
Click to expand...

That’s one of a couple reasons I don’t play in them anymore.

Td
 
Matt said:
I would love to see a round robin group feeding a SE bracket as a format for a pool tournament. Does anyone actually do that?
Click to expand...

CSI did that in 2014 for their pro event during their amateur league event. Souquet won his group but had to leave early; Shane was second in the group so he went into the single-elim stage in place of Souquet. Between people not being familiar with the format, and the fact that it was Shane who took Souquet's place, you'd think it was the sports scandal of the century. The *****ing and moaning was at a fever pitch. Needless to say, CSI never used that format again.

I don't really like it, for the fact that, in the group stage, a player with no chance of winning can still influence the outcome. That leaves it open to shenanigans.
 
RR-SE may even be worse. Loads of pointless matches and incentives for collusion to advance and eliminate.

There is only one RR-SE that works. Flights of 4 and advance 2 and both 3rd matches played simultaneously. (World Cup Soccer)
 
HawaiianEye said:
I prefer DE where everybody has to be beaten twice.

If you can't hang around until the tournament finishes, go bowling or do something else, instead of entering the tournament. I played 20 hours straight, with no breaks, last Sunday until 2:00 AM Monday morning and then went to work at 4:00 AM. If you can't hang with the old dudes, then you need to take your vitamins or something.
Click to expand...

I remember one, that I won, and had myself in the Calcutta..... that lasted until 2:30 a.m.
And I worked at 6..... that was the LAST time I did that... and I was in my 30’s then.
Unless it’s in the 4 figures, it’s not worth it to me anymore. I still like to ‘grind’ but only
At my place in my time..:rolleyes:

Yes..... I do need some Geritol!! If you don’t know what that is ..... you’re going to need to
Spot me at least a couple of hours.... :smile:

Td
 
Paul Schofield said:
... There is only one RR-SE that works. Flights of 4 and advance 2 and both 3rd matches played simultaneously. (World Cup Soccer)
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me. Everyone is guaranteed three matches. All the rounds for a group can be played simultaneously (on two tables).
 
Bob Jewett said:
Sounds good to me. Everyone is guaranteed three matches. All the rounds for a group can be played simultaneously (on two tables).
Click to expand...

Bob have you ever seen the modified round robin systems used in chess and go? They don't have every player play every other player, but they narrow down the number of match-ups based on earlier results, or prior ratings. I've never heard of it in pool but it might work well.
 
Now that we are getting actual performance based (instead of participation based) ratings on almost all players who will enter high level events, do you think pro events should switch to single elimination and seeded?
 
iusedtoberich said:
Again, DE is not about giving every player an equal amount of losses. Its about weeding out the weaker players early, so only the stronger players remain.

IMO of course:):)
Click to expand...
Lol I thought it was so (us) weaker players had a reason to show up! Sucks when you get eliminated and then the food order gets served.... which is why I only get fries and chicken fingers. Waiting for pizza after going 0-2 really sucks. :smile:
 
IN MY OPINION...
In the early days, the game was straight pool. Many of the contestants were capable of running 100+ balls. Round robin was the format because the loser might have only taken a break shot then sat in the chair for the next 90 minutes. Not too fair for the loser.

Due to time constraints, double-elimination was put into use. When 9-ball became the
championship game, double-elimination carried over from the straight pool days.

Tennis is a single-elimination sport. Sets are long enough that the better player should win. Players alternate serving.

Pool should be a single-elimination, long sets, alternate breaks. The best player should win. Match rounds should progress smoothly. Losers will have had at least one turn at the table every 2 games. Both finalists will have played the same number
of matches to earn his spot in the finals. The starting times for each match can be posted before the tournaments starts. No 4:00a.m. finals!
 
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