SJM Slant on the 2017 Mosconi Cup

[mrinsatiable]

This is the best write up I've read so far. Fair and concise. It's difficult to gauge all the variables when you're at home watching the tv.

Big question is..how does team USA close the gap with the observations you stated?

 

[AtLarge]

Thank you for your reply. I'm unsure who the coach was. I have my opinion on who it could or should have been. I think a great deal rests on the learning philosophy of the person doing the training but since pool is a very subjective sport what works for one might not always work for another. A persons instruction theories are pretty important. How many years have we lost the Mosconi? and who was the last winning years coach? Anyone answer please..

Team USA captain: Johan Ruijsink from the Netherlands

Team USA record:

• 11-12-1 for all 24 years
  10-2 first 12 years
  1-10 last 11 years

Last win: 2009, with Nick Varner as captain

 

[sjm]

This is the best write up I've read so far. Fair and concise. It's difficult to gauge all the variables when you're at home watching the tv.

Big question is..how does team USA close the gap with the observations you stated?

Tough question, and it begs the question: Is there a coach anywhere willing to play both instructor and drill sargent to the players in the areas where development is needed? If not, the cause is already a lost one, and the efforts of recent coaches suggest they are unwilling to address America's glaring tactical weaknesses.

If, alternatively, one assumes that any appointed coach will be willing to play these roles, we could turn to the greatest tactician and decision maker that American pool has ever produced ---- Nick Varner.

These points aside, though, no coach will make the difference unless the players are willing to put in the work. I am in no position to say whether they are or not.

 

[sjm]

Very good report Stu ,I agree 100% .
It was good to meet you at the Mosconi Cup.
Bud

Yes, good to meet you Buddy, and I hope to see you on the tournament trail again.

 

[336Robin]

Team USA captain: Johan Ruijsink from the Netherlands

Team USA record:

• 11-12-1 for all 24 years
  10-2 first 12 years
  1-10 last 11 years

Last win: 2009, with Nick Varner as captain

I know nothing about this gentleman. Thank you for posting the stats they are very helpful but show a definite decline or a lack of something. I would think we should study the learning theories of the European Coaches as they have obviously one upped us. Perhaps one of our own here has those same theories. Does anyone know how long the coach had with the players to train?

 

[sjm]

IMO the best analysis of the 2017 Mosconi Cup yet! Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts to this event on the forum. The American's were totally dominated on the table and your views are spot on in my book!

Your kind words are appreciated.

 

[overlord]

That's a pretty fair analysis on this year's MC. 2 things I don't completely agree with...firstly, I don't think the main reason of USA's defeat is mostly the better defense, kicking and jumping. Even in the shot-making department Europe was vastly superior to USA. I just couldn't believe how many long balls USA was missing. Secondly, I don't think that Thorpe did well, I think his performance was ordinary at best. Very poor at long key shots, defensively way behind the elite players, questionable shot selection at times and I would even dare to say his technique needs massive improvement. His cue ball was constantly struggling to reach ideal position. For the moment I find him an overrated player, lacking the talent to reach higher standards. Bergman in comparison is far more talented than him. I think that surprising win over Wu at the US Open made him look a lot better than he actually is. Against a Wu, that is more than clear that he's going probably through a bad spell of form, judging by his early exit from the World Championship!

If you were to enjoy a moniker it would be Mr. Tendentious. You keep giving us paragraphs predicated on your Euro Trash perspective.

You attack folks that have a lengthy professional resume in the game while you expound with your, " opinion without portfolio " point of view.

Frankly its getting tiring. Maybe you just don't like Americans.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I know nothing about this gentleman. Thank you for posting the stats they are very helpful but show a definite decline or a lack of something. I would think we should study the learning theories of the European Coaches as they have obviously one upped us. Perhaps one of our own here has those same theories. Does anyone know how long the coach had with the players to train?

You are WAY over-thinking this.

Europe has tons of private billiard clubs that provide places for kids to play, as European governments don't micromanage the shit out of businesses that serve alcohol. American has pool halls failing around every corner.

Europe also has a league system that encourages full effort on every shot, with the opportunity to win fame and glory by promoting successful teams to compete against the next level of competition. American has APA, which actively encourages sandbagging, or you have to split up a team due to point caps. American pool is 100% about the almighty dollar. European pool is 100% about competition and sportsmanship.

This isn't about training. It is about lack of competitive environment to develop our players in. Europe simply has a much more developed pool infrastructure, that does not rely on commercial businesses to give people places to play. They HAVE them, sure, but for every commercial "pool hall", you have three private clubs funded by membership fees.

If America had such an environment, there would be more good players on average. With more good players on average, there would be more pool tournaments. With more pool tournaments attended by good players, to rise to the top, better fundamentals would be a requirement, and the top talent would develop these fundamentals.

Our top player's lack of fundamentals is simply a byproduct of rising to the top of a very small talent pool.

Short Bus Russ

 

[336Robin]

Seemed to me the tables had the biggest impact. As the US guys never play on that type table it gives the Euros a huge advantage.

If they were drastically different pocket cuts possibly. That would make the sight picture a lot different and unnerving.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Stu, I enjoyed reading your write up. Could you expand your analysis to include your take on the Euro side individually and/or as a team.

Thanks for the read. Great stuff.

 

[336Robin]

As you suggest there are vast differences in the pool environment here and in Europe noted.

There is also less room for pros here possibly due to shrinkage.

However a Captain should be able to lead a team and provide them guidance at least for a few weeks before the event. If the right theories on learning are applied and those theories are based on something tangible and not just something you're supposed to absorb from the universe, then I think that person has a chance to make a much larger impact on the team.

I will give your biggest fish in a small bowl some credit, could be right, we are going to start moving in the private club environment here else pool wont survive in the rural areas.

Pool will be private to avoid the standards businesses are held to and those private rooms will key clubs at times and supervised at times and in warehouse type spaces some without air and heat.

You are WAY over-thinking this.

Europe has tons of private billiard clubs that provide places for kids to play, as European governments don't micromanage the shit out of businesses that serve alcohol. American has pool halls failing around every corner.

Europe also has a league system that encourages full effort on every shot, with the opportunity to win fame and glory by promoting successful teams to compete against the next level of competition. American has APA, which actively encourages sandbagging, or you have to split up a team due to point caps. American pool is 100% about the almighty dollar. European pool is 100% about competition and sportsmanship.

This isn't about training. It is about lack of competitive environment to develop our players in. Europe simply has a much more developed pool infrastructure, that does not rely on commercial businesses to give people places to play. They HAVE them, sure, but for every commercial "pool hall", you have three private clubs funded by membership fees.

If America had such an environment, there would be more good players on average. With more good players on average, there would be more pool tournaments. With more pool tournaments attended by good players, to rise to the top, better fundamentals would be a requirement, and the top talent would develop these fundamentals.

Our top player's lack of fundamentals is simply a byproduct of rising to the top of a very small talent pool.

Short Bus Russ

 

[sjm]

Stu, I enjoyed reading your write up. Could you expand your analysis to include your take on the Euro side individually and/or as a team.

Thanks for the read. Great stuff.

With the preface that I pay a little less attention to the individual performances of the European players, I'll do my best.

Filler
In a word, magnficent. Kept the runouts going when called upon to execute some tough shots. Played position well and broke respectably. Tactical skills are a bit underdeveloped, but why wouldn't that be the case for such a young player? Josh has a chance to be the best player in the world one day.

Shaw
Not the dominant Shaw we've seen in 2017, but still was a solid contributor. Not at his best in either of the singles matxhes against SVB, but managed to gain a split. I think Jayson is still trying to find his best form at the Mosconi, but I don't think we'll have to wait long. He and Filler will likely be the anchors of Team Europe in the foreseeable future.

Vandenberg
Nick doesn't seem to find his best at the Mosconi and, while his play was passable, I'd say he was Europe's weakest player.

Souquet
I think we saw, for the most part, the Ralf of old. Ralf was the best breaker of the balls on either team, played his usual superb patterns, and was adequate as a tactician. His pocketing was, perhaps, a little below the Ralf of the 2013 Mosconi Cup, but the standard was still high.

Alcaide
David's play was generally superb, and he showed a truly complete set of skills. His defense, kicking, and jumping were superb, and his jump carom of a nine ball off the three that followed a two way shot by Van Boening provided one of the highlights of Day 1 for Team Europe. David hadn't found his best in Mosconi Cups past, be he shone brightly in this one.

Teamwork
The Europeans always seem to play with more joy than the Americans, and this year was no exception. They really embrace the event to the max and have great team chemistry. Coach Chamat gets some of the credit, for he's an ardent cheerleader on the sidelines who amps up the energy of both his team and the European fans.

Well played, Europe.

 

[sjm]

That's a pretty fair analysis on this year's MC. 2 things I don't completely agree with...firstly, I don't think the main reason of USA's defeat is mostly the better defense, kicking and jumping. Even in the shot-making department Europe was vastly superior to USA. I just couldn't believe how many long balls USA was missing. Secondly, I don't think that Thorpe did well, I think his performance was ordinary at best. Very poor at long key shots, defensively way behind the elite players, questionable shot selection at times and I would even dare to say his technique needs massive improvement. His cue ball was constantly struggling to reach ideal position. For the moment I find him an overrated player, lacking the talent to reach higher standards. Bergman in comparison is far more talented than him. I think that surprising win over Wu at the US Open made him look a lot better than he actually is. Against a Wu, that is more than clear that he's going probably through a bad spell of form, judging by his early exit from the World Championship!

Thanks for your input. Bergman's omission from the team was an error, given his all-around game, but the omission of America's best tactical player among the elite shows that Johann wasn't prioritizing tactical prowess in putting the team together.

 

[overlord]

With the preface that I pay a little less attention to the individual performances of the European players, I'll do my best.

Filler
In a word, magnficent. Kept the runouts going when called upon to execute some tough shots. Played position well and broke respectably. Tactical skills are a bit underdeveloped, but why wouldn't that be the case for such a young player? Josh has a chance to be the best player in the world one day.

Shaw
Not the dominant Shaw we've seen in 2017, but still was a solid contributor. Not at his best in either of the singles matxhes against SVB, but managed to gain a split. I think Jayson is still trying to find his best form at the Mosconi, but I don't think we'll have to wait long. He and Filler will likely be the anchors of Team Europe in the foreseeable future.

Vandenberg
Nick doesn't seem to find his best at the Mosconi and, while his play was passable, I'd say he was Europe's weakest player.

Souquet
I think we saw, for the most part, the Ralf of old. Ralf was the best breaker of the balls on either team, played his usual superb patterns, and was adequate as a tactician. His pocketing was, perhaps, a little below the Ralf of the 2013 Mosconi Cup, but the standard was still high.

Alcaide
David's play was generally superb, and he showed a truly complete set of skills. His defense, kicking, and jumping were superb, and his jump carom of a nine ball off the three that followed a two way shot by Van Boening provided one of the highlights of Day 1 for Team Europe. David hadn't found his best in Mosconi Cups past, be he shone brightly in this one.

Teamwork
The Europeans always seem to play with more joy than the Americans, and this year was no exception. They really embrace the event to the max and have great team chemistry. Coach Chamat gets some of the credit, for he's an ardent cheerleader on the sidelines who amps up the energy of both his team and the European fans.

Well played, Europe.

Your copy regarding the cup has been great.

 

[sjm]

Your copy regarding the cup has been great.

Thanks, fella. I know how lucky I am to get to attend these events, and like to share what it was like to be there. Just once, I'd like to attend one of these in Europe.

Mine, of course, is just one of many opinions, and I always enjoy the input of others who watched either the live event or the live stream. I think that the big tournaments have a way of bringing out the best in the people of this forum.

 

[tim913]

Thanks, fella. I know how lucky I am to get to attend these events, and like to share what it was like to be there. Just once, I'd like to attend one of these in Europe.

Mine, of course, is just one of many opinions, and I always enjoy the input of others who watched either the live event or the live stream. I think that the big tournaments have a way of bringing out the best in the people of this forum.

If you could pick the players and coach for next year's MC, what, if any, changes would you make?

 

[JAM]

Great trip report. Thanks for sharing!

 

[gregnice37]

Stu, another great write up. Few observations from watching & reading things afterwords.

A day or 2 after the cup ended, there was a post of Facebook congratulating Sky & his girlfriend because she is pregnant & they are expecting there 1st child.
I'm wondering if Sky found out while there & it took his mind & focus away from playing.

Shane doesn't seem to like doubles at all. Even though he & Sky had success in the Worlds, he never looks comfortable in the Cup in any doubles match. Would it benefit the team if they limited Shane to the minimum for doubles(not sure what the requirements are for how many matches any given player has to play), so he could solely concentrait on singles?

 

[Kimmo]

I just wanted to chime in a Little bit. THere has been some comments on Coach not being able to motivate the People enough....but to me that is looking at things completely wrong.
It is not the coaches Job to motivate....if you do not have the Motivation to be there and to win.....then you should probably not be there.

Coaches Job is to help you find the right Tools and help you utilize them for Maximum result. Those who dismiss coaches are, in my opinion, foolishly ignoring a Chance to improve themselves.
When we evaluate our own Performance, we always look at it through some colored glasses. We have our own biases, our own opinions...right or wrong. Coaches can help the Player by bringing in unbiased view and possibly help the Player to better understand things. Show me a Player that says "I know already everything" and I'll Show you a liar.
Most pool Players do not have a clue how the Body and mind physiologically works...they just know that they Play worse under some conditions (weaker Opponent, more important game, more audience, late at night, bad cushions) and just willingly accept it without ever trying to understand WHY it happens and then try to address that very Thing... This is what coaches can help...

My favorite example was this documentary i saw about how the brain works. They took a Football-Player (that is Soccer to you heathens) and attached some measurement device to his head to measure brain-activity during his execution of a specific freekick. Most of the activity in the brain took place in the part of the brain that is basically linked to stuff that you have learned before and you are just recalling the Actions from Memory. This Player had practised this shot probably thousands of times before. Then they told the Player that now he had to shoot the same shot, but if he makes it, he will get 1,000$, should he miss it...he will have to pay 1,000$.
Suddenly the brain-patterns where completely different. The most active part of the brain was actually the part responsible for learning new things. So basically....he knew he had done the shot thousands of times, but someone forgot to tell his brain....and his Body was reacting like he had never done the shot before.
This is just one of the things that happen under pressure.
This is also just one of those things that Player might not realise, but Coach might....Coach might then also have the Tools necessary to address the issue. How does one deal with pressure for example...because you have to deal with it or it will become this Monster in the back of the head and easily turn worse.

I remember this one session we had at the Pool-bootcamp with Johan (Ruijsink) and Alex (Lely), when they were talking about exactly this. I cannot remember exactly what was said but the essence was it that when you are on the table and there is some external factor that is bothering you...whether it is the noise of the crowd, a waiter Walking by, sharking from the Opponent...whatever....you have to deal with it there and then. If you just try to ignore it....it WILL nag at you all the time. It is like me saying "Do NOT think of a pink elephant!!" and I guarantee you that this is exactly the Image that flashed in your head.
Some of the techniques might involve "look at it....decide if it is important to you at this Moment....if not...accept it...and move on". It could be that you are down for a shot...and someone walks through your line of aim on the Background....just get up...chalk your cue again and reset your stance... Or the most famous one of the last couple of weeks....What Joshua Filler did in his game...that looked to me like a textbook example of a learned technique to deal with pressure. He got to the Point where the pressure was starting to be too much to execute the shots he wanted to.....so he got up.....walked to his chair...sat down....took a sip of water....and moved on....to win the set and the game in the end as well.

So I do not believe it is coaches Job to tell you what you are working for or remind you of the rewards...this is something that Needs to come from yourself. The Coach can help you by identifying things you might not notice yourself and give you ideas on how to deal with them. In the end it is you that has to do the work....the Coach is not going to shoot the shot for you...but he can help create the conditions where you can.

ok...enough rambling....

Cheers,
Kimmo

 

[Justin Bergman]

I’ve said this a thousand times and I’m going to say it again.. I’m going to keep it short but it’s not the coaches fault. Just like it wasn’t Mark Wilson’s fault the last 3 years. I truly believe that anyone of you reading this or commenting would have the same impact in the practice room as anyone. It’s up to the players to perform. I won’t say it’s absolutely useless because it could have like a very very small affect on a weak minded player or a person whose not feeling confident and the coach pumps him but that could also be a fellow player. Also I think the coach makes it look more respectable and more like a real sport.