skippy27...got a few questions cor you

[lorider]

It does make it a your regular shooting cue if that's how you choose to use it. It's your cue, it's your intent that makes it what it is. Maybe it's not "normal", but it's your regular shooter.

So you've never played in a broom stick tournament? I used to frequent a pool hall that did that every Christmas, it was a blast

The more I interact with you on this forum the more I would love to hang out with you sometime.

However I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Do you realize you are agreeing with Skippy ? What's in your drink this morning ?

It does not matter what you intend to do with the cue. Your intentions do not change the rule that special equipment is not allowed for special shots. The apa rule is clear.


You can intend to do anything you want with your cue but use a cue that apa has defined as a special cue for a special shot at your own risk

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You know Shawn Armstrong, whenever we have a big discussion like this I always put myself at the table (figuratively) to see every side. When I see 2 or 3 or more different opinions that make perfect sense and could be a legitimate ruling it troubles me as a referee, because sure as shit that situation will come up the very next time I'm called upon to referee. With no concrete direction to rely on when that does come up in the next game I stand there and go, "uhhhhhhhh......" so before that happens I'll always try to contact a higher authority (not Sev or Overlord) for "guidence". Did you do that? or are you just spouting your opinion?
I can see where you and those with similar thinking could absolutely be correct and I can see why you might think so, but I can also see why I could be correct.
Do you wear tennis (or basketball) shoes to only play tennis (or basketball) in, or are they your everyday shoes?

I was a CPA referee for quite a few years. And had this come up. And the ruling from St. Louis was that 99% of cues used fall under the "general shooting cue" category. Unless the cue had a phenolic tip, or the one piece ferrule/tip combo, it was very hard to deem a cue as a "specialty cue".

You aren't correct. Because you're allowing the shot to define the cue. And there is no room in the rules for that sort of interpretation.

 

[lorider]

One last time for mw fellas then I'm gonna start a realm controversial thread:grin-square:.

I hope we all agree that a break cue or a jump break is a specialty cue. I think we all agree that you can use a specialty cue for normal shots if you want to.

Now where we begin to differ is when you use a specialty cue for normal shots it becomes a normal cue. Apa rules clearly state .. That specialty cues are not allowed for specialty shots..to me its cut and dry. Using a specialty cue for normal shots does not make it a normal cue.


Let me use this analogy on you..

You grab a screwdriver and start putting screws onto a board. You run out of screws so you grab a few nails to finish the job . You use the handle of the screwdriver to hammer the nails in. The fact that you use the screwdriver to hammer the nails in dont make it a hammer as you intended to use it...its still a friggin screwdriver..

 

[Celophanewrap]

One last time for mw fellas then I'm gonna start a realm controversial thread:grin-square:.

I hope we all agree that a break cue or a jump break is a specialty cue. I think we all agree that you can use a specialty cue for normal shots if you want to.

Now where we begin to differ is when you use a specialty cue for normal shots it becomes a normal cue. Apa rules clearly state .. That specialty cues are not allowed for specialty shots..to me its cut and dry. Using a specialty cue for normal shots does not make it a normal cue.


Let me use this analogy on you..

You grab a screwdriver and start putting screws onto a board. You run out of screws so you grab a few nails to finish the job . You use the handle of the screwdriver to hammer the nails in. The fact that you use the screwdriver to hammer the nails in dont make it a hammer as you intended to use it...its still a friggin screwdriver..

So you used your screwdriver as a hammer. In that instance it became a hammer,
interesting eh?

 

[lorider]

So you used your screwdriver as a hammer. In that instance it became a hammer,
interesting eh?

Lmao

You as bad as akippy with your.interpretations

 

[Celophanewrap]

Lmao

You as bad as akippy with your.interpretations

I think we could all use a really big beer
(2 for Skippy)

 

[Skippy27]

Too many people trying to spin the rules. My "break cue", as you keep calling it, falls 100% within the rules of what's defined as a "regular shooting cue".

No it doesn't. You put a break/jump tip on it for the sole purpose of breaking and jumping with it to try to skirt the rules. To further support this you only use it for breaking and jumping. (And now all of a sudden lagging, BS).

No stick with an extremely hard tip such as yours is going to be used as a regular shooting stick. You and I both know this. Whether or not you can try to play with it has no relevance.

 

[Skippy27]

My thought here is that the moment you use that one cue solely as your breaker it becomes a specialty cue. Whether from your case or off the wall, if you use that cue to ONLY break it becomes a speciality cue.
In the sketchy bar when you played with your breaker, because you didn't use that cue to only break but also as your player it was not a specialty cue and was a regular shooting cue.
If I use my factory stock BK 2 to play an entire match with, then for that match it was a regular shooting cue because that's how I used it - as a regular shooting cue. The player in the next match barrows it to break with and uses it only as a breaker. In that match it is a specialty cue. In the following match the next player barrows it and uses it to break and completes his first inning with the BK 2 but switches in the second inning to a different cue. Once again it ceases to be a specialty cue because it was used, albeit briefly, as a regular shooter.
Whether it's an Orange Crusher, or a BK 2, or a Schon CX86, or a $10,000 Southwest, it's in how you as the player uses it during a match that makes it a specialty cue or a regular shooting cue. What the manufacturer might call it means absolutely nothing, it all in how you, the player, choose to use it.

The rule/definition regarding a breaking cue refers to "a cue designed for breaking". The rule makes no reference to who may have designed it, the specific design, or why you feel it's better for breaking. It gives no criteria for a break cue other than a cue designed for breaking. When you as the player use a cue only to break with and not to shoot "regular shots" with, you are, in effect, saying, "This cue in it's unique make up and design and as far as I'm concerned, is designed for breaking. Even if only for me and even if only for this match, this cue is designed for breaking.
By using a cue solely as a break cue you are making a declaration that this is your break cue and that's what it's for, even if only for that game or match. You may have purchased or acquired it as a regular shooting cue and have used as such in the past, but the moment you execute a break shot and you switch to your shooter immediately after, you've declared that the cue you broke the rack with, it's unique design, is solely your breaker and for that match or game it is by declaration and thereby definition a specialty cue.

EXACTLY! Glad some one gets it.

 

[Skippy27]

My breaker is a standard J&J sneaky pete. 18oz. I changed the ferrule because I like a phenolic ferrule's hit better than fibre, and they're more durable. I have also put a hard tip on it.

I do not have to declare my second cue as a break cue.

Slowly you just keep revealing how full of shit you really are. So now not only have you changed the tip to a hard tip, but you have changed the ferrule, to one most commonly used in break/jump stick. And though you tried to dumb down your tip by just saying hard tip, it is actually a Sumara jump/break tip.(Nice try)

So you changed to a phenolic ferrule, changed to a jump/break tip, only use the stick for jumping, breaking and, now according to you, lagging. Yet your claim is it is not a specialty cue under the APA definition of SPECIALTY CUES: Cues specially tailored to perform specific shots.

Sorry dude, just not buying it.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Slowly you just keep revealing how full of shit you really are. So now not only have you changed the tip to a hard tip, but you have changed the ferrule, to one most commonly used in break/jump stick. And though you tried to dumb down your tip by just saying hard tip, it is actually a Sumara jump/break tip.(Nice try)

So you changed to a phenolic ferrule, changed to a jump/break tip, only use the stick for jumping, breaking and, now according to you, lagging. Yet your claim is it is not a specialty cue under the APA definition of SPECIALTY CUES: Cues specially tailored to perform specific shots.

Sorry dude, just not buying it.

Actually, I have never said I have a Samsara tip on my break cue. I used an example of putting a Samsara break tip on a cue in one of my posts. My actual breaker has a WB tip on it.

I really don't care what you buy. I've had a few run ins with you. You don't really impress me as someone who "gets it", so I don't expect much from you. Move along.

BTW, do you even know what phenolic is? Micarta is a form of phenolic. It's a linen or canvas put together with a resin. Most high quality cues have a phenolic ferrule. The ferrule doesn't give the cue any magical properties. If I told you the ferrule was actually LBM (linen based melamine), would you have any gripes about it?

You're clueless.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Sorry, Skippy, but you're wrong. Again.

If I buy an 18oz sneaky pete, and put a Samsara tip on it, it will jump better than my 21oz playing cue with a medium Moori on it.

There are no rules against what hardnesses of tips can be used. The Samsara tip is APA legal. So, what grounds would you have against me using the above cue? I could actually play with the cue if I wanted to. But the rules allow me a second cue - i.e. a break cue. So why would I expose my playing cue to the abuse of a jump shot? The jump shot is legal in the APA, as long as the pool room allows them. We've gone over this countless times with the league operators here. You're allowed two cues. You can shoot a jump shot with your breaker, and switch back.

You're wrong. Give it up. Call the head office of the APA if you'd like to find out.

Here's my post, Skippy. Read the sentence. "If I buy......". I didn't say that this is the cue I use. It was an example. Duh.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

My cue has a WB tip on it. Very similar to the standard tip on a Schon. I guess all Schon cues should be considered specialty cues that aren't allowed for use in the APA...

What makes a cue a break cue? You tell us, specialty cue expert. You're the one deeming which cues are and aren't legal. If I was to define a break cue, it's a cue with a phenolic tip, or one piece tip/ferrule combo. But again, I really don't care. I just like poking holes in your "expertise".

Here's the first time I referenced my cue's tip. WB - water buffalo. No Samsara, or Sumara tip. Who's full of shit now, Skippy? Making up facts now?

Learn to read before you mock others.

 

[Skippy27]

Here's the first time I referenced my cue's tip. WB - water buffalo. No Samsara, or Sumara tip. Who's full of shit now, Skippy? Making up facts now?

Learn to read before you mock others.

Clearly I misread that and I have said it multiple times and you never corrected me. That does not equate to making of facts.

 

[Celophanewrap]

OK, so direct from the APA higher ups - if your cue or the cue in question is not made or manufactured specifically for breaking (or jumping or some such specialty cue type) it is then a regular shooting cue. The tip or the material it might be made from is insignificant, a regular shooting cue, regardless of alterations or tip, or tip material is a regular shooting cue and may be used to jump, masse', break, or shoot. A breaking cue manufactured specifically for breaking can be used to break, that is all. Any hybrid versions of such cues or items not covered in the rule, like a Predator BK2 with a Z2 shaft will be ruled on by the APA on a case by case basis.

I realize it's been a long time since anyone posted in this thread but it was a quest for information and I had to know.

 

[lorider]

OK, so direct from the APA higher ups - if your cue or the cue in question is not made or manufactured specifically for breaking (or jumping or some such specialty cue type) it is then a regular shooting cue. The tip or the material it might be made from is insignificant, a regular shooting cue, regardless of alterations or tip, or tip material is a regular shooting cue and may be used to jump, masse', break, or shoot. A breaking cue manufactured specifically for breaking can be used to break, that is all. Any hybrid versions of such cues or items not covered in the rule, like a Predator BK2 with a Z2 shaft will be ruled on by the APA on a case by case basis.

I realize it's been a long time since anyone posted in this thread but it was a quest for information and I had to know.

What ???? You did not believe me ?

 

[Celophanewrap]

What ???? You did not believe me ?

I just had a different perspective :grin:

...I think it's the thin air up here

 

[bad_hit]

All they need to do is put actual specs in the rules of a "jump cue" that are common to all "jump cues", such as the length ...OR....make it really simple and say "no jump shots allowed"...how often do APA players jump balls with their playing cue on a bar table?

 

[Mrdodd72]

OK, so direct from the APA higher ups - if your cue or the cue in question is not made or manufactured specifically for breaking (or jumping or some such specialty cue type) it is then a regular shooting cue. The tip or the material it might be made from is insignificant, a regular shooting cue, regardless of alterations or tip, or tip material is a regular shooting cue and may be used to jump, masse', break, or shoot. A breaking cue manufactured specifically for breaking can be used to break, that is all. Any hybrid versions of such cues or items not covered in the rule, like a Predator BK2 with a Z2 shaft will be ruled on by the APA on a case by case basis.

I realize it's been a long time since anyone posted in this thread but it was a quest for information and I had to know.

Thanks for the info:thumbup:

 

[justadub]

All they need to do is put actual specs in the rules of a "jump cue" that are common to all "jump cues", such as the length ...OR....make it really simple and say "no jump shots allowed"...how often do APA players jump balls with their playing cue on a bar table?

The problem with that is the moment a cue ball left the table even a little bit, people would be screaming..... while this is a bit too ambiguous, its less of an issue than the "no jump shots" would be.

And I jump occasionally. With a cue that wouldnt pass the rule in Vegas, but thats the way my LO runs it here in his territory.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

OK, so direct from the APA higher ups - if your cue or the cue in question is not made or manufactured specifically for breaking (or jumping or some such specialty cue type) it is then a regular shooting cue. The tip or the material it might be made from is insignificant, a regular shooting cue, regardless of alterations or tip, or tip material is a regular shooting cue and may be used to jump, masse', break, or shoot. A breaking cue manufactured specifically for breaking can be used to break, that is all. Any hybrid versions of such cues or items not covered in the rule, like a Predator BK2 with a Z2 shaft will be ruled on by the APA on a case by case basis.

I realize it's been a long time since anyone posted in this thread but it was a quest for information and I had to know.

And I think this is what a few of us were arguing, right?

I can hardly wait for Skippy's apology.