skippy27...got a few questions cor you

[Shawn Armstrong]

Thanks, but you are referring to the wrong one. You are speaking of his playing stick, not the one he converted to a specialized stick. Which as you see he once again avoided admitting.

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!! I modified my cue into a specialty stick by installing a hard tip!!! I nominate Skippy to be the official equipment inspector for the APA.

What you're too dense to comprehend is that my breaking/jump specialty cue, as you call it, fits the textbook definition of a general shooting cue. Suppose I put it the exact same tip on my playing cue, and just decide to break and/or jump with my other cue as to avoiding damaging my playing cue's tip? Suppose I have two identical cues, both with tips that have been changed to water buffalo. I break and jump with one of them. I play with the other. Have I modified my playing cue into a specialty cue? It has the exact same specs as my breaker.

Your defiance of logic astounds me.

 

[Skippy27]

Btw, skip....I answered the question you ask here in the original post you quoted. Phenolic tip. And I'm the one that doesn't answer questions directly?

Duh.

No, you didn't and Phenolic tips are not the only tip designed for break/jump sticks. There are leather ones as well, but you already know this which is why you I believe you are avoiding the question.

Above you said you took a normal shooting stick (one that can be used for all pool shots) added the Samsara tip to it. You now use it as your breaking and jumping cue. A description of the tip from one vendor: The Samsara laminated jump/break tips are quickly becoming popular among pool players. This is a leather tip that is hard enough to jump and break with and not cause damage to the cue ball. Made with 9 layers of laminated calf skin, ultra-hard with cue ball grip for control and English! The special manufacturing process used to make these tips has made them feel as hard as phenolic without any of the drawbacks!

So you made it a stick for the sole purpose of jumping and breaking. Is that not by the very definition a specialized stick? You can claim you can use that stick for all shots, just like I could use my Stinger or a shorty with a Phenilon tip on it for all shots. However, neither of us would do that because neither are designed for all shots and would put us at and disadvantage.

So now answer 3 questions from above:

1. 1.) Why did you put a Samsara tip on a normal playing stick?
2. 2.) Would you not agree that taking a normal playing stick and putting a tip on it designed for the specific purpose of breaking, jumping and masse shots makes that stick a specialized stick?
3. 3.) If you say no above, why not?

 

[Celophanewrap]

I love this kind of human interaction
It's like a non contact internet MMA match

 

[Skippy27]

I love this kind of human interaction
It's like a non contact internet MMA match

LOL, I think we are having a great conversation and getting some good thoughts out there.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

No, you didn't and Phenolic tips are not the only tip designed for break/jump sticks. There are leather ones as well, but you already know this which is why you I believe you are avoiding the question.

Above you said you took a normal shooting stick (one that can be used for all pool shots) added the Samsara tip to it. You now use it as your breaking and jumping cue. A description of the tip from one vendor: The Samsara laminated jump/break tips are quickly becoming popular among pool players. This is a leather tip that is hard enough to jump and break with and not cause damage to the cue ball. Made with 9 layers of laminated calf skin, ultra-hard with cue ball grip for control and English! The special manufacturing process used to make these tips has made them feel as hard as phenolic without any of the drawbacks!

So you made it a stick for the sole purpose of jumping and breaking. Is that not by the very definition a specialized stick? You can claim you can use that stick for all shots, just like I could use my Stinger or a shorty with it a Phenilon tip on it for all shots. However, neither of us would do that because neither are designed for all shots and would put us at and disadvantage.

So now answer 3 questions from above:

1. 1.) Why did you put a Samsara tip on a normal playing stick?
2. 2.) Would you not agree that taking a normal playing stick and putting a tip on it designed for the specific purpose of breaking, jumping and masse shots makes that stick a specialized stick?
3. 3.) If you say no above, why not?

1. I like to use a hard tip on my break cue, because it doesn't flatten out or mushroom. I COULD put a Le Pro on it, and beat the crap out of it, turning it into a harder tip as I pack it down, cut it, and pack it down again. I choose to eliminate some time and effort by putting a harder tip on my break cue.

2. The shot doesn't define the cue. I play with hard tips. The only reason I don't use a WB tip on my playing cue anymore is that they're known to "chip", and a chunk comes out of them. I've since switched to a hard Ultraskin tip. Just because I can shoot a jump shot with a hard leather tip doesn't make it a specialized cue. Again, by your logic, Schon cues shouldn't be allowed for APA play, as they install a water buffalo tip on their cues. Do you actually get that, or no? Their hard tip facilitates a jump shot over a soft tip, so therefore, they're making specialized cues.

3. I say NO, because hardnesses of tips haven't been deemed legal or illegal. You can choose an elkmaster tip, and that will allow you to spin the ball more. I can choose a harder tip, because they have more consistency, and I don't have to shape or maintain them as often. Now, does a hard tip jump better than a soft tip? Sure. But I don't use the hard tip for the express purpose of being able to break or jump better. I use them because they suit my game better. And it's within the rules of pool that I am allowed to do so. You'd want it that certain hardnesses of tips be outlawed, as installing them somehow grants the user magical powers to execute "specialty shots"? Please. If I gave a 3 my break cue, they'd have a snowball's chance in hell of making a jump shot with it. Because I developed the skill to shoot that particular shot. You know, back before we had these short sticks called jump cues.

You're wrong. Flat out wrong. My break/jump cue, as you call it, conforms 100% to the letter of the law as a shooting cue. It can perform every shot that my playing cue can perform. I can play a follow or draw shot with it. I can run a rack with it. It is a playing cue with a hard tip. The Samsara tip is deemed legal for APA PLAY. Not breaking. Play. So I could install one on my playing cue, and use it.

A tip doesn't make a cue a "specialty" cue. The problem is your interpretation of "specialty".

BTW, let's just say for sake of argument that I started out with a le pro tip on my cue. Through playing with it for two months, the tip becomes rock hard, and I can now jump with it the same way I could with a Samsara, or a WB tip? Has my cue become a specialty cue, seeing as playing with the tip has modified it into a really good jump cue? Just want to hear your opinion.

 

[lorider]

Thanks, but you are referring to the wrong one. You are speaking of his playing stick, not the one he converted to a specialized stick. Which as you see he once again avoided admitting.

You snipped my post in your quote.and did not answer my question either :wink:

You are not going to admit you are wrong in your interpretation even after every one else on here plus apa operator gave you specific reasons you are interpreting the rule wrong. That's ok :wink:

It would take a 1.000 page rule boom to cover just about everything you would encounter playing pool so sometimes you just have use common sense and take the whom paragraph in context instead of focusing on one sentence or one word.

I am going to tell you about another cue I have acquired in my search for the elusive magic wand. It's a pawn shop find with 2 shafts. One has a standard leather tip and the other has a hard transparent tip.similar to a g10 but harder. It actually pings when you hit the cue ball. No one I have showed it to has ever seen one like it before.

It is obviously a specialty tip.

For a while I got lazy in my psr resulting in mis cueing often . I got the bright idea of playing matches solely with this cue. I knew I was going to have to concentrate on every shot or the results would be disastrous.

Every time j hit the cue ball people all around would be looking up to see what that pinging sound was lol.lemme say ..it got me back in stroke fast lo and I actually shot pretty good with it.

Now I am going to ask one last question in this thread. Your answer will tell me what kind of person you are.

If I played against you and shot the entire match with this obviously special tip would you cry foul if I attempted a jump shot with it ?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You snipped my post in your quote.and did not answer my question either :wink:

You are not going to admit you are wrong in your interpretation even after every one else on here plus apa operator gave you specific reasons you are interpreting the rule wrong. That's ok :wink:

It would take a 1.000 page rule boom to cover just about everything you would encounter playing pool so sometimes you just have use common sense and take the whom paragraph in context instead of focusing on one sentence or one word.

I am going to tell you about another cue I have acquired in my search for the elusive magic wand. It's a pawn shop find with 2 shafts. One has a standard leather tip and the other has a hard transparent tip.similar to a g10 but harder. It actually pings when you hit the cue ball. No one I have showed it to has ever seen one like it before.

It is obviously a specialty tip.

For a while I got lazy in my psr resulting in mis cueing often . I got the bright idea of playing matches solely with this cue. I knew I was going to have to concentrate on every shot or the results would be disastrous.

Every time j hit the cue ball people all around would be looking up to see what that pinging sound was lol.lemme say ..it got me back in stroke fast lo and I actually shot pretty good with it.

Now I am going to ask one last question in this thread. Your answer will tell me what kind of person you are.

If I played against you and shot the entire match with this obviously special tip would you cry foul if I attempted a jump shot with it ?

I'll answer for him. He's the type that would say something to you, then after he lost, he'd protest the match. He'd send an email to the league operator, and the head office. Then, after he was told he's wrong, he'd fold his team, and write you up on AZB the next day.

Sound about right?

 

[lorider]

I'll answer for him. He's the type that would say something to you, then after he lost, he'd protest the match. He'd send an email to the league operator, and the head office. Then, after he was told he's wrong, he'd fold his team, and write you up on AZB the next day.

Sound about right?

Well ...that is my 1st thought also. But we could be mistaken about his character the same way he is mistaken about this rule. :grin:

 

[lorider]

I love this kind of human interaction
It's like a non contact internet MMA match

Well it does make for interesting reading on a ho hum day at work. Is my typing better?

I am paying a lil more attention to this small display on My phone and the auto correction crap:grin-square:

 

[APA Operator]

I'll answer for him. He's the type that would say something to you, then after he lost, he'd protest the match. He'd send an email to the league operator, and the head office. Then, after he was told he's wrong, he'd fold his team, and write you up on AZB the next day.

Sound about right?

I don't think Skippy's like that. I think he knows there's a place for picking apart the rules (here is fine), but on league night he's quite the sportsman. When we discuss proposed rule changes, etc., we all play rule book lawyer. Just don't do it when people are trying to enjoy an evening out.

 

[Skippy27]

1. I like to use a hard tip on my break cue, because it doesn't flatten out or mushroom. I COULD put a Le Pro on it, and beat the crap out of it, turning it into a harder tip as I pack it down, cut it, and pack it down again. I choose to eliminate some time and effort by putting a harder tip on my break cue.

Understandable which is why virtually every single break/jump cue out there comes with an extremely hard tip (like your Samara one). That and the fact that the tips are designed to improve both breaking and jumping shot making abilities.

2. The shot doesn't define the cue.

Correct, the shot does not but the characteristics of the cue and whether or not those characteristics are designed to aide that shot and the reason you use it for that specific purpose does.

3. ...... But I don't use the hard tip for the express purpose of being able to break or jump better. I use them because they suit my game better.

Yes you do as a break/jump tip like your Samara would suit everyone's game better when it comes to a break or jump shot. It is what they are specifically designed for.

And it's within the rules of pool that I am allowed to do so. You'd want it that certain hardnesses of tips be outlawed, as installing them somehow grants the user magical powers to execute "specialty shots"?

That is not true. If you had the exact same butt/shaft/tip but one of them was 5oz lighter and you wanted to change to it to jump, I would still have an issue with it. Why? Because lighter sticks aide in jumping so you would be changing to it for the sole purpose of performing a specialty shot, thus it is being used as a specialty stick. Some people like and use hard tips to play. However, a break/jump tip like the Samara they do not use on their normal playing stick and if they did, they would have no reason to change sticks unless the other one was further modified to aide in the specific shoot. If you have a stick that is only use for specific shots because that stick has been manufactured or modified to aide in those shoots it clearly falls under specialty cues by APA definition. And don't get cute by saying magical powers as it is a well known fact that harder tips aide in jumping and breaking.

A tip doesn't make a cue a "specialty" cue. The problem is your interpretation of "specialty".

I say the problem is your interpretation of both normal playing cue and specialty cues and this is where you are trying to find a loophole in the rules. You are bastardizing what a "normal playing cue" is and ignoring what a specialty cue is. Clearly we don't see eye to eye on this. You are attempting to say that the only time a stick can ever be defined as a "specialty cue" (jump or break stick) is if the manufacturer of the stick explicitly calls it and sells it as that otherwise it is a normal playing cue. I say a stick is a jump/break stick when it has been configured in such a manner as to aide you in doing those specific tasks regardless of who did it and when, which is covered by the definition of Specialty cues in the APA manual. So yes I would say that you adding a break/jump tip to your "normal playing stick" has thus made it a specialty break/jump stick. The fact that you use it exclusively for the purpose of jumping and breaking further cements the fact that you have purposefully converted a normal playing stick into a jump/break stick by adding that tip. You could have done other things to it to make it a better jump stick (make it lighter, cut it down, etc.) however you choose just to add a tip that aides in both breaking and jumping. If I were shooting with you and said hey Shawn let me use your break stick you would give me that very stick to break with.

Would you not agree that a specialty cue is a cue that is configured to perform specific shots and generally only used for those specific shots?

 

[Skippy27]

Now I am going to ask one last question in this thread. Your answer will tell me what kind of person you are.

If I played against you and shot the entire match with this obviously special tip would you cry foul if I attempted a jump shot with it ?

No, if you shoot the entire match with the stick and also attempt jumps with it I would have no issues at all with it.

Let me ask you.... If I brought a 40" (so I am WPA compliant for Shawn) shorty that weighed 10oz that I put a jump/break tip on. Would you object to me changing to it only for a jump or masse shot?

One last thing... I think by simply stating the following would be sufficient to clear all of this up: In the course of a game you cannot change to a cue that is designed or modified to aide you in specific shots. The only exception is the break shot in which a cue designed or modified for that purpose can be used.

 

[Celophanewrap]

So after reading this and rereading this thread I think that good points have been made by all contributors and though you might say "It says this right there..." I believe that The APA has provided no clear definition of Regular Shooting Cue and Break Cue, so interpreting the rules regarding switching cues and the specialty shots has become a little muddy. There are just too many arguements to be made on both sides.

The WPA and BCA have identical definitions and it appears to be a much simpler question at that level, as if to say "This is a cue, you play pool with it, and the game starts like this, now go play".

Because The APA caters to the lower level player and would rather not give a distinct advantage to a more senior level player, at least not by means of equipment (or the "Push Out") there is a rule or definition for both a Playing cue and a Breaking cue. I see now neither is terribly clear.

A short time ago there was a thread "What Makes a Break Cue a Break Cue?"
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=415762
Ther were only a couple of pages of responses, weight, shaft, tip, etc.... some became a little more scientific as to speed + weight striking mass..... and stuff like that, but still no clear definition.

The final post was from "ivicafranic" who simply posted "The guy who breaks with it". I think that may be closest thing to a right answer, at least from my perspective.

For purposes of interpreting The APA rules, it still isn't terribly clear. My personal contention is that you shoot with what you brought to the table. I don't really care which cue you bring to the table to start your half of the inning, but unless there is some damage to the cue or it is the break shot there will be no switching cues in the middle of your turn As a referee that is how I have ruled on this in the past. Reading this thread has compelled me to rethink that position, but frankly I don't think The APA can even really agree on this, yet.

As an athlete (or pool player) I have certain things that I have always reminded myself of: Know your opponent, know what to expect and rely on the percentages, Know my own limitations, don't be stupid, and Know the rules, they can save you.

I think as APA players some of us tend to let the rules play the game for us and we don't rely on our own skill as a player to win a game. My role as a referee is a little different from my role as a player. I'm well aware of the rules and as a referee I'm there to help you play within those rule if you should have questions about them. As a player, as long as we play like gentlemen it's all good and I really don't care what stick you bring to the table and when you might switch it out and regardless of what the rules are. As long as we play by the same rules there won't be a problem.

I think, that at least for me, this will require a little more research, it's not as simple as it looks.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

So after reading this and rereading this thread I think that good points have been made by all contributors and though you might say "It says this right there..." I believe that The APA has provided no clear definition of Regular Shooting Cue and Break Cue, so interpreting the rules regarding switching cues and the specialty shots has become a little muddy. There are just too many arguements to be made on both sides.

The WPA and BCA have identical definitions and it appears to be a much simpler question at that level, as if to say "This is a cue, you play pool with it, and the game starts like this, now go play".

Because The APA caters to the lower level player and would rather not give a distinct advantage to a more senior level player, at least not by means of equipment (or the "Push Out") there is a rule or definition for both a Playing cue and a Breaking cue. I see now neither is terribly clear.

A short time ago there was a thread "What Makes a Break Cue a Break Cue?"
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=415762
Ther were only a couple of pages of responses, weight, shaft, tip, etc.... some became a little more scientific as to speed + weight striking mass..... and stuff like that, but still no clear definition.

The final post was from "ivicafranic" who simply posted "The guy who breaks with it". I think that may be closest thing to a right answer, at least from my perspective.

For purposes of interpreting The APA rules, it still isn't terribly clear. My personal contention is that you shoot with what you brought to the table. I don't really care which cue you bring to the table to start your half of the inning, but unless there is some damage to the cue or it is the break shot there will be no switching cues in the middle of your turn As a referee that is how I have ruled on this in the past. Reading this thread has compelled me to rethink that position, but frankly I don't think The APA can even really agree on this, yet.

As an athlete (or pool player) I have certain things that I have always reminded myself of: Know your opponent, know what to expect and rely on the percentages, Know my own limitations, don't be stupid, and Know the rules, they can save you.

I think as APA players some of us tend to let the rules play the game for us and we don't rely on our own skill as a player to win a game. My role as a referee is a little different from my role as a player. I'm well aware of the rules and as a referee I'm there to help you play within those rule if you should have questions about them. As a player, as long as we play like gentlemen it's all good and I really don't care what stick you bring to the table and when you might switch it out and regardless of what the rules are. As long as we play by the same rules there won't be a problem.

I think, that at least for me, this will require a little more research, it's not as simple as it looks.

I've never been beaten by a cue, or by one shot. I just play pool, and leave the whining to captains like Skip.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

No, if you shoot the entire match with the stick and also attempt jumps with it I would have no issues at all with it.

Let me ask you.... If I brought a 40" (so I am WPA compliant for Shawn) shorty that weighed 10oz that I put a jump/break tip on. Would you object to me changing to it only for a jump or masse shot?

One last thing... I think by simply stating the following would be sufficient to clear all of this up: In the course of a game you cannot change to a cue that is designed or modified to aide you in specific shots. The only exception is the break shot in which a cue designed or modified for that purpose can be used.

I play TAP. Bring out whatever cue you want. Could care less. Don't transpose your insecurities and dislikes onto other players. You seem to be the only one on here that's bent about the specialty cue deal. Serenity now....

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Understandable which is why virtually every single break/jump cue out there comes with an extremely hard tip (like your Samara one). That and the fact that the tips are designed to improve both breaking and jumping shot making abilities.



Correct, the shot does not but the characteristics of the cue and whether or not those characteristics are designed to aide that shot and the reason you use it for that specific purpose does.



Yes you do as a break/jump tip like your Samara would suit everyone's game better when it comes to a break or jump shot. It is what they are specifically designed for.



That is not true. If you had the exact same butt/shaft/tip but one of them was 5oz lighter and you wanted to change to it to jump, I would still have an issue with it. Why? Because lighter sticks aide in jumping so you would be changing to it for the sole purpose of performing a specialty shot, thus it is being used as a specialty stick. Some people like and use hard tips to play. However, a break/jump tip like the Samara they do not use on their normal playing stick and if they did, they would have no reason to change sticks unless the other one was further modified to aide in the specific shoot. If you have a stick that is only use for specific shots because that stick has been manufactured or modified to aide in those shoots it clearly falls under specialty cues by APA definition. And don't get cute by saying magical powers as it is a well known fact that harder tips aide in jumping and breaking.



I say the problem is your interpretation of both normal playing cue and specialty cues and this is where you are trying to find a loophole in the rules. You are bastardizing what a "normal playing cue" is and ignoring what a specialty cue is. Clearly we don't see eye to eye on this. You are attempting to say that the only time a stick can ever be defined as a "specialty cue" (jump or break stick) is if the manufacturer of the stick explicitly calls it and sells it as that otherwise it is a normal playing cue. I say a stick is a jump/break stick when it has been configured in such a manner as to aide you in doing those specific tasks regardless of who did it and when, which is covered by the definition of Specialty cues in the APA manual. So yes I would say that you adding a break/jump tip to your "normal playing stick" has thus made it a specialty break/jump stick. The fact that you use it exclusively for the purpose of jumping and breaking further cements the fact that you have purposefully converted a normal playing stick into a jump/break stick by adding that tip. You could have done other things to it to make it a better jump stick (make it lighter, cut it down, etc.) however you choose just to add a tip that aides in both breaking and jumping. If I were shooting with you and said hey Shawn let me use your break stick you would give me that very stick to break with.

Would you not agree that a specialty cue is a cue that is configured to perform specific shots and generally only used for those specific shots?

One night, we played at a sketchy location, and I didn't want to use my normal player on their bar boxes. So I played with my "specialty" break cue. I guess I should inform the league that the match from 6 years ago should be forfeited, as I was using a cue that was specially modified to be a break cue?

Hilarious. Really.

 

[Skippy27]

Answer my question Shawn:

Would you not agree that a specialty cue is a cue that is configured to perform specific shots and generally only used for those specific shots?

 

[Skippy27]

So after reading this and rereading this thread I think that good points have been made by all contributors .......

For purposes of interpreting The APA rules, it still isn't terribly clear. My personal contention is that you shoot with what you brought to the table. I don't really care which cue you bring to the table to start your half of the inning, but unless there is some damage to the cue or it is the break shot there will be no switching cues in the middle of your turn As a referee that is how I have ruled on this in the past. Reading this thread has compelled me to rethink that position, but frankly I don't think The APA can even really agree on this, yet.

I think, that at least for me, this will require a little more research, it's not as simple as it looks.

I would agree with the 3 main things you say here and think the way you have ruled in the past is the correct ruling - If you have not damaged your stick, then you have no reason to switch it while you are at the table with the only exception being the break.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Answer my question Shawn:

The answer is NO. I've already answered it. Get this through your head:

I took a sneaky pete that I used to PLAY WITH. I liked the taper, and it always broke well. I made the switch to a heavier cue a few years ago. But I still like to break with an 18-19oz cue. It was a PLAYING CUE. I CAN STILL PLAY WITH IT. The fact that I choose to play with a 21 oz cue, and break with an 18 oz sneaky pete doesn't turn my "cue that I break with" into a "break cue". Otherwise, someone who breaks with a house cue has turned a wallabushka into a specialty cue. You're defining the purpose of the cue by the shot it performs. That isn't the case. A break cue has been designed and engineered to benefit the break shot. But I know plenty of players that put a medium tip on their BK and BK2s, and turned them into playing cues. You'd have it that those cues are "break cues" when they have a "break tip", and a "playing cue" when they have a softer tip. This is not the case. I CAN play with a cue that has a phenolic tip on it.

I do not have a cue that I somehow engineered into being a break/jump cue. I have a cue that is a playing cue, that I have put a hard tip on, so that I don't have to break in a soft tip, and turn it into a hard tip.

You seem to want answers, yet offer none of your own. I asked if it was ok that I have a standard cue with a le pro tip, and through months of beating on the tip, it becomes hard enough that I can jump with it. Has the cue become modified?

What would you say if I went to the wall, found an 18oz house cue that I haven't broken with, pick the one with the thinnest, flattest tip, and shot a jump shot with it during a game? Have I somehow transformed that into a specialty cue?

Answers, please

 

[Skippy27]

You seem to want answers, yet offer none of your own. I asked if it was ok that I have a standard cue with a le pro tip, and through months of beating on the tip, it becomes hard enough that I can jump with it. Has the cue become modified?

Sure, you can jump with it if you have been shooting with it the entire time. But if you want to change to it for a jump shot because you accidentally left yourself bad then no, you can't change to it. I too have answered this before.

What would you say if I went to the wall, found an 18oz house cue that I haven't broken with, pick the one with the thinnest, flattest tip, and shot a jump shot with it during a game? Have I somehow transformed that into a specialty cue?

I assume you mean that you stuck yourself and wanted to jump with this stick. I would say yes by wanting to use that cue for the sole purpose of performing a specialty shot, you are using it as a specialty cue and no you can't switch to it for the sole purpose of jumping with it. I have also addressed this before.

The answer is NO. I've already answered it. Get this through your head:

So what is a specialty cue according to you and what are they used for?

As you answer consider APA's definition:

SPECIALTY CUES: Cues specially tailored to perform specific shots.