skippy27...got a few questions cor you

[Shawn Armstrong]

Sure, you can jump with it if you have been shooting with it the entire time. But if you want to change to it for a jump shot because you accidentally left yourself bad then no, you can't change to it. I too have answered this before.



I assume you mean that you stuck yourself and wanted to jump with this stick. I would say yes by wanting to use that cue for the sole purpose of performing a specialty shot, you are using it as a specialty cue and no you can't switch to it for the sole purpose of jumping with it. I have also addressed this before.



So what is a specialty cue according to you and what are they used for?

As you answer consider APA's definition:

A specialty cue is a cue that is optimized to perform one specific shot. A masse cue, for example - short, very heavy. Or a jump cue - 40" in length, with a phenolic tip. It has been optimized to perform one shot well.

As I mentioned earlier, let's say I have two identical cues. I use one to play with, and one to break with. Same exact cues. Would you let me use the one I break with to shoot a jump shot? Or would I need to use the exact same cue I'm shooting with? They're identical, remember. Same tip, ferrule, weight....everything.

Your rules are too ambiguous, and leave way too much to interpretation. Ruling that a specific ferrule type or tip type shouldn't be allowed? I've already shown you the definition from the APA regarding a regular shooting cue. If that "optimally configured" break cue of mine falls under 100% of the definition of a shooting cue, why do you feel the need to argue that my cue is a specialty cue? Can you tell me why my second cue ISN'T a shooting cue? I do shoot with it, occasionally. And people from my team have borrowed it when they didn't have their cue with them.

Tell me...why does the APA allow break cues? Is it because they're engineered to break better? Or to reduce exposing your playing cue to damage? That's the exact reason I use the "break cue" to shoot jump shots. Being honest, I could play the same shot with my playing cue. But seeing as the rules allow me a second cue, the rules allow me to switch between playing cues during a game, and my cue is a shooting cue, 100% compliant with the rulebook you're quoting, WHY CAN'T I USE IT? Argue away. Letter of the law says it's a legal cue. Deal with it.

 

[Skippy27]

If they are the exact same, you would have no reason to change but if you really wanted to, go ahead as you are not switching to a specialty cue tailored for the specific shot.

Sorry, but whether you like it or not, you need to accept the fact that you have tailored a cue to better aide you in jumping and breaking by installing a tip that is designed to help you in performing those specific shots better. By the very definition of Specialty Cues of the APA you have converted what was a normal playing cue into a specialty cue. The fact that you "could" use the stick you put the jump/break tip on for all shots is irrelevant as you have not up to this point in the game used it as such. Now that you are stuck and need to jump you want to change to that cue for the sole purpose of performing that specific shot because you have tailored it to perform that shot better than your "normal playing cue" you had been using up to that point which is better suited for a majority of shots in a game of pool.

You attempting to argue you only change because you don't want to damage your other stick is you trying to loophole the rules and I am calling bullshit. You want to change because you have tailored that other stick to aide you in jumping and you get the side benefit of not potentially damaging your normal playing stick. The fact that you have tailored it for breaking and use it as such also exempts if from being legal for a jump shot.

 

[Skippy27]

One last thing being I have made it pretty clear you are wrong on this so I won't respond any more to it.

A cue is not just a specialty cue because it was manufactured and marketed as one. Which is why the APA definition of a specialty cue says "tailored to perform".

A break cue or a jump/break cue can be tailored to work as any normal playing cue used to shot a majority of shots in a game of pool by simply swapping out the tip to one designed for such. At this point it would perform similarly to any other normal playing cue in a majority of shots in a game of pool and it would perform inferior to other break/jump cues.

In the same sense a normal playing cue that is used to shoot a majority of shots in a game of pool can be tailored to work as a full length jump or break cue by simply swapping out the tip to one designed for such. It can also be tailored for jumping by adding a jump/break tip and making it lighter by cutting down the butt or hollowing it out. Would it be as good as one specifically manufactured for such? Probably not, but it would certainly look, walk, quack and function like one. At this point the cue would perform inferior in a majority of shots in a game of pool and superior at breaking and jumping when compared to a normal playing cue.

Accept those facts and move on.

 

[Jaden]

lol...

One last thing being I have made it pretty clear you are wrong on this so I won't respond any more to it.

A cue is not just a specialty cue because it was manufactured and marketed as one. Which is why the APA definition of a specialty cue says "tailored to perform".

A break cue or a jump/break cue can be tailored to work as any normal playing cue used to shot a majority of shots in a game of pool by simply swapping out the tip to one designed for such. At this point it would perform similarly to any other normal playing cue in a majority of shots in a game of pool and it would perform inferior to other break/jump cues.

In the same sense a normal playing cue that is used to shoot a majority of shots in a game of pool can be tailored to work as a full length jump or break cue by simply swapping out the tip to one designed for such. It can also be tailored for jumping by adding a jump/break tip and making it lighter by cutting down the butt or hollowing it out. Would it be as good as one specifically manufactured for such? Probably not, but it would certainly look, walk, quack and function like one. At this point the cue would perform inferior in a majority of shots in a game of pool and superior at breaking and jumping when compared to a normal playing cue.

Accept those facts and move on.

You are living in lala land. You haven't shown anything other than that you are living in da Nile... Watch out for alligators...

What if you play with two identical cues, two identical tips, but one of those tips you've slammed 500 times onto concrete to compact it. It's now a harder tip, is it now a specialty cue?

you crack me up.

Jaden

 

[Skippy27]

You are living in lala land. You haven't shown anything other than that you are living in da Nile... Watch out for alligators...

What if you play with two identical cues, two identical tips, but one of those tips you've slammed 500 times onto concrete to compact it. It's now a harder tip, is it now a specialty cue?

you crack me up.

Jaden

You tell me Jaden.

SPECIALTY CUES: Cues specially tailored to perform specific shots.

Did you slam it into the concrete 500 times to compact it so that the cue was tailored to perform as a break/jump?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

One last thing being I have made it pretty clear you are wrong on this so I won't respond any more to it.

A cue is not just a specialty cue because it was manufactured and marketed as one. Which is why the APA definition of a specialty cue says "tailored to perform".

A break cue or a jump/break cue can be tailored to work as any normal playing cue used to shot a majority of shots in a game of pool by simply swapping out the tip to one designed for such. At this point it would perform similarly to any other normal playing cue in a majority of shots in a game of pool and it would perform inferior to other break/jump cues.

In the same sense a normal playing cue that is used to shoot a majority of shots in a game of pool can be tailored to work as a full length jump or break cue by simply swapping out the tip to one designed for such. It can also be tailored for jumping by adding a jump/break tip and making it lighter by cutting down the butt or hollowing it out. Would it be as good as one specifically manufactured for such? Probably not, but it would certainly look, walk, quack and function like one. At this point the cue would perform inferior in a majority of shots in a game of pool and superior at breaking and jumping when compared to a normal playing cue.

Accept those facts and move on.

I don't need to accept anything. I've used the cue for jump shots at higher level tournaments when jump shots were allowed. With the league operator's blessing. And no one said a thing. We tend to try and decide our matches on the table, instead of worrying about what defines a specialty cue. Which, by your definition, my playing cue has become, because my H Ultraskin has hit about 5000 balls, and is playing quite firm. So I need to go have my cue "normalized" again by putting a tip with the correct Shore scale hardness to comply with your interpretations of "specialty cue".

Seriously, you can't make this stuff up

 

[Celophanewrap]

.
What if you play with two identical cues, two identical tips, but one of those tips you've slammed 500 times onto concrete to compact it. It's now a harder tip, is it now a specialty cue?

Jaden

500 times? Who does that? Personally, I just buy a Samsara break tip. That would save so much time. 500 time would be a little excessive, 275 times maybe, but 500......

 

[Skippy27]

So I need to go have my cue "normalized" again by putting a tip with the correct Shore scale hardness to comply with your interpretations of "specialty cue".

Now you are just being silly. I never claimed that the natural wear on a tip is considered "tailored". Nor was I ever talking about your "playing stick". You have clearly indicated you don't use your playing stick to jump/break and that you have set aside a specialty cue that you tailored to aide you in the those shots by putting a jump/break tip on it and that you only use it for those specialty shots. Is that not what you have claimed all this time?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Now you are just being silly. I never claimed that the natural wear on a tip is considered "tailored". Nor was I ever talking about your "playing stick". You have clearly indicated you don't use your playing stick to jump/break and that you have set aside a specialty cue that you tailored to aide you in the those shots by putting a jump/break tip on it and that you only use it for those specialty shots. Is that not what you have claimed all this time?

Nope. That's what you have said.

I said I have a second cue with a hard tip on it, that I happen to break with.

However, that cue happens to jump a little better than my playing cue. Now, my JUMP CUE jumps a hell of a lot better than my break cue. When I play in the TAP league that I play in, I can use whatever cue I want. Heck, I could run the rack with my jump cue, then switch to my player to make the money ball.

When I played in the CPA, I still had a jump cue. When it came time to shoot a jump shot in league, I would surmise the situation. If it was just a little hop, I'd use my standard playing cue. If I had to get a little more air, I would use my second cue, that I happen to break with. I'm not going to call it a break cue anymore, as that seems to get your panties in a bunch. So we will call it my secondary playing cue. If I had to really get it over the ball, I would use my JUMP CUE - the one maximized for being able to jump a ball. However, seeing as a JUMP CUE is a specialty cue, they aren't allowed under the rules of the APA.

There's the proper deciphering of the rules of the APA. Keep arguing about the use of the break cue, though. By your logic, cues are defined by what tip is on them, and has nothing to do with their dimensions or design. I could stick a Samsara tip onto a Southwest, and according to you, that's now a modified break cue. Truly hilarious.

If anyone is being silly, it's you, Skippy.

 

[lorider]

Skippy I must say the answer you gave me to my last question absolutely puzzled me.

I thought about it all day and wondered
How you could give me the wrong answer when the right answer is what you have been wrong about this whole thread. I know that sentence may not make sense but if you really think about
It...it will come to you..i hope

Bear with me.and I will tell you what it means.

Have you ever heard the saying....you can't see the forest for the trees? It means when you are fixated on certain trees you cannot see the big forest

The same with rules. When you are fixated on certain rules you cant see the benefits h picture. Plus...you guilty of ignoring some rules and twisting the meaning of others to validate your viewpoint.

You are also fixated on the persons intent ..in your eyes to manipulate rules and perceived loop holes to gain an unfair advantage.

Every one agrees ...including you on what a standard cue is and what a specialty cue is.

The problem is...when some one intends to use a standard cue for a certain shot you think it then becomes a specialty cue....wrong my friend.

Rules state you can change cues at any time during a match. They do not say ..you can change anytime during a match except a jump shot.

We all agree that apa banned special equipment to jump with to level the playing field. They did not ban you from jumping.just made it harder to do. They have not banned hard tips on standard cues which do allow you to jump easier and a hard tip does not turn your cue into a specialty cue just because you use it on a special shot.

Now I know all I said above probably get you to admit you were wrong.

Think about this...if you knew the rules as good as you think you do you would have not given me the answer you did.

Just because I use a specialty cue the entire match on all my shots. If I get in trouble the 5 th rack k cannot use that cue to jump like you said I am allowed to.you completely ignored the rule you have been quoting this entire thread.

That told me you are so fixated on some ones intent to manipulate a rule you are ignoring what the rule really means.

 

[Celophanewrap]

As I mentioned earlier, let's say I have two identical cues. I use one to play with, and one to break with. Same exact cues. Would you let me use the one I break with to shoot a jump shot? Or would I need to use the exact same cue I'm shooting with? They're identical, remember. Same tip, ferrule, ........

My thought here is that the moment you use that one cue solely as your breaker it becomes a specialty cue. Whether from your case or off the wall, if you use that cue to ONLY break it becomes a speciality cue.
In the sketchy bar when you played with your breaker, because you didn't use that cue to only break but also as your player it was not a specialty cue and was a regular shooting cue.
If I use my factory stock BK 2 to play an entire match with, then for that match it was a regular shooting cue because that's how I used it - as a regular shooting cue. The player in the next match barrows it to break with and uses it only as a breaker. In that match it is a specialty cue. In the following match the next player barrows it and uses it to break and completes his first inning with the BK 2 but switches in the second inning to a different cue. Once again it ceases to be a specialty cue because it was used, albeit briefly, as a regular shooter.
Whether it's an Orange Crusher, or a BK 2, or a Schon CX86, or a $10,000 Southwest, it's in how you as the player uses it during a match that makes it a specialty cue or a regular shooting cue. What the manufacturer might call it means absolutely nothing, it all in how you, the player, choose to use it.

The rule/definition regarding a breaking cue refers to "a cue designed for breaking". The rule makes no reference to who may have designed it, the specific design, or why you feel it's better for breaking. It gives no criteria for a break cue other than a cue designed for breaking. When you as the player use a cue only to break with and not to shoot "regular shots" with, you are, in effect, saying, "This cue in it's unique make up and design and as far as I'm concerned, is designed for breaking. Even if only for me and even if only for this match, this cue is designed for breaking.
By using a cue solely as a break cue you are making a declaration that this is your break cue and that's what it's for, even if only for that game or match. You may have purchased or acquired it as a regular shooting cue and have used as such in the past, but the moment you execute a break shot and you switch to your shooter immediately after, you've declared that the cue you broke the rack with, it's unique design, is solely your breaker and for that match or game it is by declaration and thereby definition a specialty cue.

 

[lorider]

My thought here is that the moment you use that one cue solely as your breaker it becomes a specialty cue. Whether from your case or off the wall, if you use that cue to ONLY break it becomes a speciality cue.
In the sketchy bar when you played with your breaker, because you didn't use that cue to only break but also as your player it was not a specialty cue and was a regular shooting cue.
If I use my factory stock BK 2 to play an entire match with, then for that match it was a regular shooting cue because that's how I used it - as a regular shooting cue. The player in the next match barrows it to break with and uses it only as a breaker. In that match it is a specialty cue. In the following match the next player barrows it and uses it to break and completes his first inning with the BK 2 but switches in the second inning to a different cue. Once again it ceases to be a specialty cue because it was used, albeit briefly, as a regular shooter.
Whether it's an Orange Crusher, or a BK 2, or a Schon CX86, or a $10,000 Southwest, it's in how you as the player uses it during a match that makes it a specialty cue or a regular shooting cue. What the manufacturer might call it means absolutely nothing, it all in how you, the player, choose to use it.

The rule/definition regarding a breaking cue refers to "a cue designed for breaking". The rule makes no reference to who may have designed it, the specific design, or why you feel it's better for breaking. It gives no criteria for a break cue other than a cue designed for breaking. When you as the player use a cue only to break with and not to shoot "regular shots" with, you are, in effect, saying, "This cue in it's unique make up and design and as far as I'm concerned, is designed for breaking. Even if only for me and even if only for this match, this cue is designed for breaking.
By using a cue solely as a break cue you are making a declaration that this is your break cue and that's what it's for, even if only for that game or match. You may have purchased or acquired it as a regular shooting cue and have used as such in the past, but the moment you execute a break shot and you switch to your shooter immediately after, you've declared that the cue you broke the rack with, it's unique design, is solely your breaker and for that match or game it is by declaration and thereby definition a specialty cue.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this cell

I dont see how using a specialty cue as regular cue during a match changes the status of a specialty cue to a regular cue.

Isn't that what this whole discussion has been about ? Changing the status of a cue.

If the above is true then that would mean if you use a standard cue for specialty shots you are in effect changing the status of that cue.

Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see using a specialty cue as your main player during a match changing the fact that it is still a specialty cue which is illegal to use for jump shots under apa rules just as using a standard cue foe jump shots does not change the fact that it is still a standard cue.

Do you see the problem with your line of thinking?

 

[Celophanewrap]

I am going to have to disagree with you on this cell

I dont see how using a specialty cue as regular cue during a match changes the status of a specialty cue to a regular cue.

Isn't that what this whole discussion has been about ? Changing the status of a cue.

If the above is true then that would mean if you use a standard cue for specialty shots you are in effect changing the status of that cue.

Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see using a specialty cue as your main player during a match changing the fact that it is still a specialty cue which is illegal to use for jump shots under apa rules just as using a standard cue foe jump shots does not change the fact that it is still a standard cue.

Do you see the problem with your line of thinking?

My thought is that the manufacturers intent behind the cue is really insignificant, what is of paramount significance is the players intent.
The cue you use everyday as your player is your everyday player - your main (or regular) shooting cue. Whether that cue is your Viking, your BK2, or your broom handle, it's what you regularly shoot with.
I once played in an open tournament and I played a safe, my opponent looked it over and said he needed his jump cue, it was about 3 ft. of 1/2" led pipe with a sort of rounded delrin cap. Maybe not up to certain standards, but worked like a charm.
A manufacturers label doesn't restrict the owner/user, it is what it is to you.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I am going to have to disagree with you on this cell

I dont see how using a specialty cue as regular cue during a match changes the status of a specialty cue to a regular cue.

Isn't that what this whole discussion has been about ? Changing the status of a cue.

If the above is true then that would mean if you use a standard cue for specialty shots you are in effect changing the status of that cue.

Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see using a specialty cue as your main player during a match changing the fact that it is still a specialty cue which is illegal to use for jump shots under apa rules just as using a standard cue foe jump shots does not change the fact that it is still a standard cue.

Do you see the problem with your line of thinking?

The previous APA LO where I'm at used to allow a break cue to perform a jump shot. Her reasoning was that if you're good enough to do a full cue jump to begin with, then you would obviously be able to play a whole game with it. Which removes it from a specialty use cue. Now on the other hand my area is so small this was never an issue. Why? Because I'm the only one capable of truly doing full cue jumps. Now this is my area and a local stipulation to the rules. At nationals I would never chance it.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

My thought is that the manufacturers intent behind the cue is really insignificant, what is of paramount significance is the players intent.
The cue you use everyday as your player is your everyday player - your main (or regular) shooting cue. Whether that cue is your Viking, your BK2, or your broom handle, it's what you regularly shoot with.
I once played in an open tournament and I played a safe, my opponent looked it over and said he needed his jump cue, it was about 3 ft. of 1/2" led pipe with a sort of rounded delrin cap. Maybe not up to certain standards, but worked like a charm.
A manufacturers label doesn't restrict the owner/user, it is what it is to you.

Too many people trying to spin the rules. My "break cue", as you keep calling it, falls 100% within the rules of what's defined as a "regular shooting cue". There is no rule that states you can only have one regular shooting cue. My cues can also perform any shot required for the game of pool.

I also lag with my "break cue". By me lagging with it, it has executed a shot besides a jump or a break. Does this qualify it as a regular shooting cue?

Stop being lawyers and just accept that the player is allowed two cues. And they can switch back and forth unless you have an iron clad reason to deem the cue a specialty cue. Otherwise, you just have an opinion, but the rules do not support your opinion. We've even had a league operator weigh in, and another quoted.

 

[lorider]

My thought is that the manufacturers intent behind the cue is really insignificant, what is of paramount significance is the players intent.
The cue you use everyday as your player is your everyday player - your main (or regular) shooting cue. Whether that cue is your Viking, your BK2, or your broom handle, it's what you regularly shoot with.
I once played in an open tournament and I played a safe, my opponent looked it over and said he needed his jump cue, it was about 3 ft. of 1/2" led pipe with a sort of rounded delrin cap. Maybe not up to certain standards, but worked like a charm.
A manufacturers label doesn't restrict the owner/user, it is what it is to you.

You are correct to an extent. I could use a Viking...bk2 or a broom handle if I want to as my main player.

When it comes to specialty shots such as jumps

I can use my Viking because it is a standard cue

I can not use a bk2 because it is a specialty cue which under apa rules is not allowed for specialty shots. Like I said ..just because you use it the entire match for normal shots does not make it a normal cue.

As for the broom handle ? Use it at your own risk.:grin-square:

 

[Celophanewrap]

I can not use a bk2 because it is a specialty cue which under apa rules is not allowed for specialty shots. Like I said ..just because you use it the entire match for normal shots does not make it a normal cue.
:

It does make it a your regular shooting cue if that's how you choose to use it. It's your cue, it's your intent that makes it what it is. Maybe it's not "normal", but it's your regular shooter.

So you've never played in a broom stick tournament? I used to frequent a pool hall that did that every Christmas, it was a blast

 

[lorider]

The previous APA LO where I'm at used to allow a break cue to perform a jump shot. Her reasoning was that if you're good enough to do a full cue jump to begin with, then you would obviously be able to play a whole game with it. Which removes it from a specialty use cue. Now on the other hand my area is so small this was never an issue. Why? Because I'm the only one capable of truly doing full cue jumps. Now this is my area and a local stipulation to the rules. At nationals I would never chance it.

Agree with you whole heartedly.

Our lo allows break or jump break cues also.

I dont jump often and the 1st time I did the opposing captain called foul.he like many others think bumps are not allowed because they have never seen any one jump


This whole debate concerns what cues you are allowed to use on jump shots..

Really I did not think this thread would go this long with different viewpoints.

The rule is pretty plain to me and clarified by apa operator earlier.

Apa states you may use any cue that is designed for normal play. Pretty cut and dry to me but one in particular believes if you use a standard cue on a specialty shot that cue magically becomes a specialty cue.

Others think if you use a specialty cue for normal shots it magically becomes a normal cue so you could use it on special shots.

Classic case of 5 people reading a paragraph and coming up with 5 different opinions of what the subject of that paragraph was.:grin-square:

 

[Celophanewrap]

Too many people trying to spin the rules. My "break cue", as you keep calling it, falls 100% within the rules of what's defined as a "regular shooting cue". There is no rule that states you can only have one regular shooting cue. My cues can also perform any shot required for the game of pool.

I also lag with my "break cue". By me lagging with it, it has executed a shot besides a jump or a break. Does this qualify it as a regular shooting cue?

Stop being lawyers and just accept that the player is allowed two cues. And they can switch back and forth unless you have an iron clad reason to deem the cue a specialty cue. Otherwise, you just have an opinion, but the rules do not support your opinion. We've even had a league operator weigh in, and another quoted.

You know Shawn Armstrong, whenever we have a big discussion like this I always put myself at the table (figuratively) to see every side. When I see 2 or 3 or more different opinions that make perfect sense and could be a legitimate ruling it troubles me as a referee, because sure as shit that situation will come up the very next time I'm called upon to referee. With no concrete direction to rely on when that does come up in the next game I stand there and go, "uhhhhhhhh......" so before that happens I'll always try to contact a higher authority (not Sev or Overlord) for "guidence". Did you do that? or are you just spouting your opinion?
I can see where you and those with similar thinking could absolutely be correct and I can see why you might think so, but I can also see why I could be correct.
Do you wear tennis (or basketball) shoes to only play tennis (or basketball) in, or are they your everyday shoes?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Here's a thought:

Some people have called my "breaker" a specialty cue. Here's where I have issue with the people that define a cue by what shots I use it for. My breaker is a standard J&J sneaky pete. 18oz. I changed the ferrule because I like a phenolic ferrule's hit better than fibre, and they're more durable. I have also put a hard tip on it. So, let's say I use my cue to break with. Skippy would want that cue designated as a "specialty cue". But, if I used the cue for a match, it's now a general shooting cue, right? The exact same cue can be deemed as two different cues? Please explain that. How can a cue be both?

Also, there is no rule stating how many shots a cue must be used for to make it a playing cue. There's also no need to declare cues. I do not have to declare my second cue as a break cue. And I do not have to declare how many playing cues I have.

There are no rules regarding intent, when it comes to equipment. The rules could be fixed easily to reflect what Celophane and Skippy seem to interpret the rules to mean. They haven't made the change. The rule could simply read "a player is allowed two cues for their match. A playing cue and a break cue. The cue that the player starts their inning with is the only cue they may use for their inning, with the exception of the opening break shot. A player will be allowed to change their cue/cue shaft during their inning at the table if the cue has been damaged, but they must notify their opponent of the issue."

They haven't changed the rules as such. My "break cue" falls within the rules of a general playing cue. It doesn't matter that I only use it for breaking and jumping. What if I lag with it? Is that now a general playing cue? Perhaps I pocket 1 ball per rack with it....now it's ok?

Too many grey areas and too many interpretations if you are going to deem a cue a specialty cue because it can break or jump. Any cue can break. And jump. Therefore, every cue is a specialty cue.