To quote G. Gordon Liddy "Kill the SOB so there is only one side of the story".
Sleeping in your car, a warning
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
numbers
Joe,
Before deciding if numbers from Texas have any validity as to the effectiveness of capital punishment a few questions have to be asked:
How many people are actually executed?
How many killings go unsolved?
A guess at how many are even undetected?
How many killers don't get the death penalty?
How long does it take on average from the first guilty sentence to the execution?
I don't expect you to answer these questions, just pointing out that the fact that Texas executes more people than most places means little when some states haven't executed anyone in over a decade. When everyone convicted of premeditated murder or a particularly heinous crime is put to death in short order then we can judge the effect of capital punishment.
What I haven't seen mentioned concerning time spent in prison, even life sentences, is that some people thrive in prison. I have friends and family that have spent decades at Angola Farm, on both sides of the bars, and know that more prisoners are happy where they are at than are executed. Using that fact as a consideration, we could say that more people are rewarded for a murder than are executed. Where is the deterrent?
Hu
JoeW said:
Joe,
Before deciding if numbers from Texas have any validity as to the effectiveness of capital punishment a few questions have to be asked:
How many people are actually executed?
How many killings go unsolved?
A guess at how many are even undetected?
How many killers don't get the death penalty?
How long does it take on average from the first guilty sentence to the execution?
I don't expect you to answer these questions, just pointing out that the fact that Texas executes more people than most places means little when some states haven't executed anyone in over a decade. When everyone convicted of premeditated murder or a particularly heinous crime is put to death in short order then we can judge the effect of capital punishment.
What I haven't seen mentioned concerning time spent in prison, even life sentences, is that some people thrive in prison. I have friends and family that have spent decades at Angola Farm, on both sides of the bars, and know that more prisoners are happy where they are at than are executed. Using that fact as a consideration, we could say that more people are rewarded for a murder than are executed. Where is the deterrent?
Hu
Man this is eating into my table time 
Lets see
a convict who started a new art form and showed us a new way to view the world.
A convict who wrote beautiful children’s books that helped inner city children learn to live peaceful lives.
A convict who, by example, taught teens that a life of crime was not worthwhile.
A convict who wrote books that changed the way many people see themselves, “Soul on Ice” comes to mind.
The list goes on.
A convict who offered to use his body for clinical trials to help improve the medical conditions of millions of other people.
A convict who trained seeing eye dogs to work on his redemption.
Convict rapists who are willing to talk with rape victims to help them work out their anger and to help the victims adjust.
All of these have been done.
To address some of Hu's concerns you would have to read the article. Some of these issues were addressed. Interestingly the people who conduct research are just like you and me and they too think of many (perhaps not all) of the objections you raise and attempt to consider these alternate explanations in their study or in the next study.
BTW punishment only works in the presence of the punisher so you are going to need the executioner onthe streets if there is to be a deterrent value.
It is true that some men, a particular type, do better in prison than on the streets. None-the-less I have met very few, among the thousands I have worked with, who liked prison life. Nearly all live in a form of purgatory worse than any catholic can envision. Watch the TV series OZ sometime and think if you or anyone you know would "thrive" in those conditions.
Lets see
a convict who started a new art form and showed us a new way to view the world.A convict who wrote beautiful children’s books that helped inner city children learn to live peaceful lives.
A convict who, by example, taught teens that a life of crime was not worthwhile.
A convict who wrote books that changed the way many people see themselves, “Soul on Ice” comes to mind.
The list goes on.
A convict who offered to use his body for clinical trials to help improve the medical conditions of millions of other people.
A convict who trained seeing eye dogs to work on his redemption.
Convict rapists who are willing to talk with rape victims to help them work out their anger and to help the victims adjust.
All of these have been done.
To address some of Hu's concerns you would have to read the article. Some of these issues were addressed. Interestingly the people who conduct research are just like you and me and they too think of many (perhaps not all) of the objections you raise and attempt to consider these alternate explanations in their study or in the next study.
BTW punishment only works in the presence of the punisher so you are going to need the executioner onthe streets if there is to be a deterrent value.
It is true that some men, a particular type, do better in prison than on the streets. None-the-less I have met very few, among the thousands I have worked with, who liked prison life. Nearly all live in a form of purgatory worse than any catholic can envision. Watch the TV series OZ sometime and think if you or anyone you know would "thrive" in those conditions.
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Str8PoolPlayer said:
Actually, it's called "capital punishment." Keeping someone in prison is also a pretty good way to prevent them from committing further crimes against the general population.
I think everyone agrees that executing someone will prevent that person from committing any more crimes, so I don't think that's what's fueling the debate over capital punishment.
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JoeW said:
If the profile fits that of the Zodiac, Son of Sam or of the Mansons. these are just a few of the examples of individuals beyond redemption. the purpose of killing in cold-blood and without the feeling of any remorse. Not to mention the Nazis that until now, where it's ideology has haunted and has been passed on and influenced the younger generations. these are just a few of the frightening facts that there are people that are beyond redemption. it would be nice to see if all of humanity are capable of changing for the better, but that is not possible. there will always be some bad tomatoes in a basket and a black sheep among herds. bad tomatoes will remain as bad tomatoes, no matter what you do. I never heard of a serial killer feeling remorse for his actions nor does he able to change his ways. motive = killing a person for the love of it is a simple criteria of people beyond redemption.
Russ Chewning said:
Try to find some excerpts concerning Saudi Arabia. you would be surprised how many people are there on death row. half of them are about to be executed just because they killed someone who tried to kill, rape, rob them. what is funny about their judicial system is that they accept blood money in exchange for life. what is also considered as below human understanding is that when a person accuses you of a certain crime that you didn't commit, you are then lashed, whipped, have your hands cut off and executed without the benefit of investigative inquiry. it means that when it is proven that you really didn't commit the crime, the punishment has already been carried. despite the severity of the punishment, crime always finds it's way into society. there was a time where going into town during the wee hours was ok. now, it seems that more people are contented staying inside because of the increase in crime rate. more people are getting victimized now than a few years ago. so in that scenario, would you say that the sort of punishment is deterrent? I think not. It's just a silly taboo of an eye for an eye (without the benefit of logical reasoning).
by the way, alcohol is not a factor in the commission of those crimes since alcohol is banned. only the sheiks and royalty are allowed from drinking such beverages. yet despite this handicap, crime is still committed. what I meant by this is alcohol intoxication is not the cause for most, if not all of the crimes committed in that area. I say that these people are just plainly want to do the bad deed.
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self interest
Yes, but how much of it was purely out of self interest? No shortage of jailhouse conversions either. the vast majority are BS as is proven if the people get out.
Most dislike prison life but may like life outside and having to cope with day to day realities even less. Also, as I am sure you are well aware, every prison no matter how bad is it's own little social system with it's own structure. Some prisoners are given respect inside the prison from both other prisoners and guards that they never had and never will have outside. They achieve a higher statue inside than they ever had on the street and prison life is fulfilling, a strange thought but true. I fully agree that this is a small percentage of prisoners, however it is also a small percentage of prisoners that are executed.
You make a good point that DNA has proven a comparative handful of people innocent, it has proven far more people were indeed guilty. Regardless, the same DNA testing is now available at the original trial and appeals and in many cases the juries are holding the prosecution to a far higher standard of proof than they have faced in the past. Few people are serving long sentences in prison or facing a death sentence that haven't been career criminals. Career criminals being locked away for many years or executed doesn't bother me in the least. They choose the lifestyle, they know the potential price if they are convicted.
I called a man friend for ten years, communicating with him often on the internet and usually meeting with him several times a year although we live in separate states. He has admitted to molesting a girl that called him "grandpa" from the time she was six until the time she was eight. He has contributed much to the world and is a highly educated man that could contribute more. I don't care! There is no punishment that I consider too severe for such a person regardless of what redeeming values you tell me he might have or what he might accomplish in the future. Had he done everything on your list above and more I would still hope for his life to be a living hell followed by a painful death. The child is having problems now and almost certainly will for life and she was a total innocent.
At what point do you think that he balances the slate for this and should walk the world as a free man and equal to all?
Hu
JoeW said:Man this is eating into my table time
Lets see
A convict who wrote beautiful children’s books that helped inner city children learn to live peaceful lives.
A convict who, by example, taught teens that a life of crime was not worthwhile.
A convict who wrote books that changed the way many people see themselves, “Soul on Ice” comes to mind.
The list goes on.
A convict who offered to use his body for clinical trials to help improve the medical conditions of millions of other people.
A convict who trained seeing eye dogs to work on his redemption.
Convict rapists who are willing to talk with rape victims to help them work out their anger and to help the victims adjust.
All of these have been done.
Yes, but how much of it was purely out of self interest? No shortage of jailhouse conversions either. the vast majority are BS as is proven if the people get out.
Most dislike prison life but may like life outside and having to cope with day to day realities even less. Also, as I am sure you are well aware, every prison no matter how bad is it's own little social system with it's own structure. Some prisoners are given respect inside the prison from both other prisoners and guards that they never had and never will have outside. They achieve a higher statue inside than they ever had on the street and prison life is fulfilling, a strange thought but true. I fully agree that this is a small percentage of prisoners, however it is also a small percentage of prisoners that are executed.
You make a good point that DNA has proven a comparative handful of people innocent, it has proven far more people were indeed guilty. Regardless, the same DNA testing is now available at the original trial and appeals and in many cases the juries are holding the prosecution to a far higher standard of proof than they have faced in the past. Few people are serving long sentences in prison or facing a death sentence that haven't been career criminals. Career criminals being locked away for many years or executed doesn't bother me in the least. They choose the lifestyle, they know the potential price if they are convicted.
I called a man friend for ten years, communicating with him often on the internet and usually meeting with him several times a year although we live in separate states. He has admitted to molesting a girl that called him "grandpa" from the time she was six until the time she was eight. He has contributed much to the world and is a highly educated man that could contribute more. I don't care! There is no punishment that I consider too severe for such a person regardless of what redeeming values you tell me he might have or what he might accomplish in the future. Had he done everything on your list above and more I would still hope for his life to be a living hell followed by a painful death. The child is having problems now and almost certainly will for life and she was a total innocent.
At what point do you think that he balances the slate for this and should walk the world as a free man and equal to all?
Hu
Tell me it ain't so, Joe.
I thought the list might go something like this, Joe. Thanks for your perspective but I don't think ANY of your examples are redeeming enough to balance the scales of justice or punishment for the taking of another human's life.
I am done with this thread. "Talk" with me about pool any time.
JoeyA
JoeW said:Man this is eating into my table time
Lets see
A convict who wrote beautiful children’s books that helped inner city children learn to live peaceful lives.
A convict who, by example, taught teens that a life of crime was not worthwhile.
A convict who wrote books that changed the way many people see themselves, “Soul on Ice” comes to mind.
The list goes on.
A convict who offered to use his body for clinical trials to help improve the medical conditions of millions of other people.
A convict who trained seeing eye dogs to work on his redemption.
Convict rapists who are willing to talk with rape victims to help them work out their anger and to help the victims adjust.
All of these have been done.
I thought the list might go something like this, Joe. Thanks for your perspective but I don't think ANY of your examples are redeeming enough to balance the scales of justice or punishment for the taking of another human's life.
I am done with this thread. "Talk" with me about pool any time.
JoeyA
Jay,
Smart move and good restraint on your part, shooting people nowadays regardless of the situation usually never turns out well for the shooter
Smart move and good restraint on your part, shooting people nowadays regardless of the situation usually never turns out well for the shooter
I think we've worn this thread out. I for one would like to put it to rest. PLease Mike or Dave. Is that possible?
I should have never posted here in the first place. It belonged in Non Pool Related.
I should have never posted here in the first place. It belonged in Non Pool Related.
jay helfert said:
Jay sorry if you want this thread to die. I just wanted to add, that it's noble on your behalf to post something like this. More people read this section than non-pool related, and what you said might keep some people a little more alert, and you never know- what you said might save someone's life.
One quick thought for you guys, and I will put aside my logging back on just to see entries on this thread.....in the mountains of North Carolina, where I was born, crime is low and there are few police per capita. The last thing someone would be worried about, if they were breaking into an occupied car, would be the police. If they were breaking into a home, police would not be the first thing they would worry about. Although I went to college, I'm still a hillbilly at heart. We take care of our own. "Our own" means belongings, family, friends, and neighbors. Visit there and give me your opinion on how "laid back" everyone feels. Less stress and crime. Just the thought of someone pointing a Beretta in your face, while trying to "jack" a car, is a strong deterrent. And, I don't know the percentages; but, most of us "back home" people own some sort of firearm. The world isn't as it once was, when people would let you use a room in their home if you were stranded. There ARE people out there with no conscience at all. If they are coming at you with no thoughts but what they can take from you, should you take the time to think it out?
jay helfert said:
That's the rub, isn't it? You broke the "law" thus the real lawbreakers are more likely to go free.
This is one reason how good-sounding, feel-good laws create more problems than they solve. The victims are "guilty" if they use reasonable self-defense and the perps don't get reported because of it.
I'm glad you didn't have to kill anyone; I'm not glad that these punks are still alive to repeat their actions.
Jeff Livingston
Cuebacca said:
Sorry for the third post in a row, but I am just reading this thread for the first time...
Here's is another way the govt makes innocent people "guilty" and puts them in danger. No Doz isn't the most effective way to stay awake for driving. It is just caffeine which is ineffective after a while and has side effects such as drowsiness, anger, etc. A better alternative is to do a jolt of coke or meth* but these alternatives are made illegal by those control-freaks who don't care about potential victims.
Liberty works in many unknown ways to support the good and thwart the evil,
Jeff Livingston
* See previous threads for my defense of this, in some cases, so I won't re-discuss this unless I have to again defend myself--hint hint.
The End !!!
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JoeW said:
Very well said.
-Andrew
If you do go for the meth, just don't let those punks know... they may want to save some time by simply stealing drugs instead of money needed to buy them. 
motel
The accuracy & incapacitation index of a .22 derringer seem insufficient.
Microtel or Motel 6 would have been safer relatively inexpensive alternatives. The cost is probably tax deductible, since you were traveling on business as a professional pool player.jay helfert said:
The accuracy & incapacitation index of a .22 derringer seem insufficient.