Sleeping in your car, a warning

[Hail Mary Shot]

There are several crimes that come to mind that SHOULD have the death penalty even though the crime didn't cause a physical death.

One of them is child rape. I think anyone who rapes a child should have an automatic death sentence. Never been raped except maybe for that one gal way back in the last mellenium before my last marriage. Just have strong feelings about ending child abuse, especially sexual child abuse.

DNA and other testing can prove that conclusively pretty easily or so I've read. There are many other crimes that SHOULD command the death penalty but as long as society gives weak sentences to the criminals they will continue to commit the crimes. The penalty needs to fit the crime and in most cases they do not. Everyone has an opinion.........

Oh, by the way, you may be mistaken about Russ fighting for our country's interests. While Russ hasn't made great efforts to detail exactly what he does, his lack of articulating what he does could be interpreted by some, that he is fighting for our country. I don't think that is the case.

I also don't believe Russ has said he is a soldier fighting for our country's interests but since you have assumed that perspective maybe Russ can elaborate on this further and settle it once and for all.

Our soldiers deserve to have the distinction separating them from U.S. civilians working in the Middle East even though it takes a pair of coconuts to do so.


JoeyA

I did consider to give Russ a benefit of a doubt. being a war-torn soldier (if he is) or a simple individual ain't easy and I can say that there is a big tendency to lose it especially his being around in a very chaotic environment. all the things that are considered to be moral and just in a normal society cannot simply be inculcated in the situation that he is in. special measures are needed to be taken (in Iraq), I understand that. but those measures should not be put into practice in a society where it isn't necessary. the judicial system doesn't need to persecute a few sacrificial lambs just to make a point to decrease crime. Does killing these few wrongfully accused, would convince those real criminals to stop?

 

[jay helfert]

He may not be now, but there are a lot of ex-military personal over seas doing protective services for the civilians. They are armed and as far as I know have the right to use deadly force to protect what ever they happen to be assigned to protect. If it is Personnel or an oil rig either way kudos, I be damned if I want to pay 4$ + for a gallon of gas. I could not afford to live.

You can thank George for the high price of gas. Don't worry too much about him. His friends in the oil industry are reaping windfall profits right now.

And we are paying the bill for this fiasco in the Middle East.

 

[JoeyA]

I did consider to give Russ a benefit of a doubt. being a war-torn soldier (if he is) or a simple individual ain't easy and I can say that there is a big tendency to lose it especially his being around in a very chaotic environment. all the things that are considered to be moral and just in a normal society cannot simply be inculcated in the situation that he is in. special measures are needed to be taken (in Iraq), I understand that. but those measures should not be put into practice in a society where it isn't necessary. the judicial system doesn't need to persecute a few sacrificial lambs just to make a point to decrease crime. Does killing these few wrongfully accused, would convince those real criminals to stop?

EXECUTING "real criminals" who commit horrific crimes would "convince" those particular criminals to stop committing crimes and a portion of the rest of the criminals that haven't been caught for crimes committed, might be persuaded to choose another path than the one they have chosen.

It's only 7:39 pm in Iraq. Russ may be joining us soon.

BTW, does anyone ever go into a pool slump and just not want to come out of it? I'm ready to toss the whole darn thing......
JoeyA

 

[Big Perm]

EXECUTING "real criminals" who commit horrific crimes would "convince" those particular criminals to stop committing crimes and a portion of the rest of the criminals that haven't been caught for crimes committed, might be persuaded to choose another path than the one they have chosen.

It's only 7:39 pm in Iraq. Russ may be joining us soon.

BTW, does anyone ever go into a pool slump and just not want to come out of it? I'm ready to toss the whole darn thing......
JoeyA

Similar topic came up the other day....our justice system is not a deterrent to crime, and violent criminals need to meet a violent end.....a kid wakes Jay in the middle of the night, banging on the window, demanding his money, and claiming to have a gun.....that deserves lethal force.....what happens the next time this kid has a real gun, and pulls it on a family of 4.....Jay would have done society a favor....

Sentences for crimes should be strong enough to make someone never want to commit them in the first place....

Jay, glad you were OK and came out alive....

 

[VIProfessor]

The only problem with the theory about capital punishment deterring crime is the fact that there are tons of studies which effectively demonstrate that it doesn't. Furthermore, statistics demonstrate that people of color and the poor are much more likely to be placed on death row, for the same crimes, than their rich Caucasion counterparts. As such, until someone can show me some facts and figures to prove that the death penalty deters crime and that it is applied fairly, I will continue to oppose it.

The United States is one of the few industrialized nations in the world that still practices capital punishment. Based on the logic of the death penalty's proponents, one would assume that the U.S. would have a lower rate of violent crime or at least that the states that have the death penalty would demonstrate a lower crime rate than those states that do not. Even a cursory review of the facts, however, shows that this is hardly the case.

There is a vast difference between advocating the right to armed self-defense and advocating capital punishment. One position asserts the right to preserve one's life by any means necessary, and the other, in my view, asserts that an eye for an eye constitutes justice.

P.S.--Is Russ, or any of the other proponents of the DP, prepared to argue that the death penalty should be applied to those who cause untold thousands of needless deaths by leading a country to war over weapons of mass destruction that did not exist? Should it be applied to corporate executives who cause untold numbers of deaths by knowingly selling dangerous products or knowingly destroying the environment? What about to occupying soldiers who rape or torture innocent civilians and suspected enemy combatants? Somehow I thought not.

 

[PROG8R]

You can thank George for the high price of gas. Don't worry too much about him. His friends in the oil industry are reaping windfall profits right now.

And we are paying the bill for this fiasco in the Middle East.

DANG!!
I knew I forgot to blame someone for my battery going dead in my car and the fish not biting last weekend. GW it is all your fault!!

 

[bsmutz]

I'm very glad that Jay's situation had such a good outcome for him. I guess it's just a sign of the way our society is heading. There is so much hatred and intolerance. What exactly is a crime? Are not using your turn signal, littering, taking a hit off a joint at a party, not checking your own blood alcohol level before driving all crimes? Should they all be punishable by death or some other equally discouraging punishment, like dismemberment? I'm all for anything that gets more people off the road, but at what cost? Would you want to be the recipient of say getting your foot chopped off because you crossed the center line of the road trying to avoid hitting a deer? The law says you can't cross the center line, it doesn't say anything about not hitting the deer. Your split second decision has now cost you a foot.
Our democratic process has brought our justice system to where it is today. We can all see flaws in it, but if we look, we can also see justice being served. My personal feeling is that we as individuals don't do enough to ensure our own safety or care about each other enough to help those that need it and work together to eliminate criminal behavior in our communities. It's almost always someone else's problem or can be fixed by "eliminating" the perpetrators. If you've ever had the privilege of living in a small community, you know what I mean. Everyone knows everyone else so there is virtually no criminal behavior (unless it is condoned by the community or comes from outside the community). All prisons are is a place for criminals to network, perfect their MO, & develop allies, except for the few that are there for life. Sure, a few get rehabilitated, but the majority are going to go back. They are kind of like lifelong welfare recipients except they hurt, rob, or do drugs to become a burden on society.
I have no idea what the numbers are, but what about children who are physically and emotionally tortured or neglected that become criminals? Are they culpable for their crimes or is it our fault for allowing them to be abused? Can you blame them for striking out at society? Wouldn't you?
I screwed up when I left home after a very disappointing and abusive childhood and ended up going to jail a few times for partying too heartily. I have since raised five children, had a steady job for 20+ years, paid my taxes, helped raise a niece & nephew, and am now taking care of two of my 8 grandchildren. While I'm not the most productive member of society, I'm no slouch. I'm glad they didn't decide to shoot me, fry me, or inject me while I was going through my rebellious phase.
So, while a plethora of miscreants bent on robbery and apathetic, overworked cops are a bane, I don't think a "kill them all and let God sort 'em out" attitude is good for society either.

 

[JoeyA]

........Somehow I thought not.[/QUOTE]

I like you VIProfessor.

You sound like a fair kind of guy and one with that does not believe that justice is handed out equally. I feel you are probably correct about that in many cases. If you are correct in your assertions about fair dinkum being applied to all races then I am all for getting that corrected but I don't think that I want murderers and attempted murderers being allowed to commit the same crimes over and over regardless of race or background.

As I mentioned before I believe that eye for eye justice is OK with me.

I am not for giving a free pass to the poor, underpriviledged or persons of color for horrific crimes. Most of the time, these crimes are wrought against the same people (the poor, the underpriviledged and people of the same race) and eventually when the criminals are not penalzied severely enough they come back to the same neighborhoods committing more crimes and making it so that decent law-abiding citizens are afraid to even report crimes they see being committed against their own family, friends and neighbors. Your idea is to grant a free pass on the death penalty until it is shared equally with I assume, ALL races, falls short of solving the problems that remain in our communities.

I don't know how to fix the crime problems in the U.S., The Virgin Islands or any where else but I am all for executing all criminals who commit horrific crimes regardless of race, culture, financial background or religion as well.

JoeyA (doesn't know how he got involved in discussing his views on this issue) Where's that donkey Russ, when you need him? I'm spinning here and don't know who to stick next.

 

[jay helfert]

I'm very glad that Jay's situation had such a good outcome for him. I guess it's just a sign of the way our society is heading. There is so much hatred and intolerance. What exactly is a crime? Are not using your turn signal, littering, taking a hit off a joint at a party, not checking your own blood alcohol level before driving all crimes? Should they all be punishable by death or some other equally discouraging punishment, like dismemberment? I'm all for anything that gets more people off the road, but at what cost? Would you want to be the recipient of say getting your foot chopped off because you crossed the center line of the road trying to avoid hitting a deer? The law says you can't cross the center line, it doesn't say anything about not hitting the deer. Your split second decision has now cost you a foot.
Our democratic process has brought our justice system to where it is today. We can all see flaws in it, but if we look, we can also see justice being served. My personal feeling is that we as individuals don't do enough to ensure our own safety or care about each other enough to help those that need it and work together to eliminate criminal behavior in our communities. It's almost always someone else's problem or can be fixed by "eliminating" the perpetrators. If you've ever had the privilege of living in a small community, you know what I mean. Everyone knows everyone else so there is virtually no criminal behavior (unless it is condoned by the community or comes from outside the community). All prisons are is a place for criminals to network, perfect their MO, & develop allies, except for the few that are there for life. Sure, a few get rehabilitated, but the majority are going to go back. They are kind of like lifelong welfare recipients except they hurt, rob, or do drugs to become a burden on society.
I have no idea what the numbers are, but what about children who are physically and emotionally tortured or neglected that become criminals? Are they culpable for their crimes or is it our fault for allowing them to be abused? Can you blame them for striking out at society? Wouldn't you?
I screwed up when I left home after a very disappointing and abusive childhood and ended up going to jail a few times for partying too heartily. I have since raised five children, had a steady job for 20+ years, paid my taxes, helped raise a niece & nephew, and am now taking care of two of my 8 grandchildren. While I'm not the most productive member of society, I'm no slouch. I'm glad they didn't decide to shoot me, fry me, or inject me while I was going through my rebellious phase.
So, while a plethora of miscreants bent on robbery and apathetic, overworked cops are a bane, I don't think a "kill them all and let God sort 'em out" attitude is good for society either.

I see your point, but it is one thing to party a bit much and quite another to rob, steal and assault people. I have no sympathy for the latter if they end up imprisoned or in a morgue.

 

[VIProfessor]

Hey Joey,

I like you too, and I am always pleased to encounter someone with whom I can disagree without being disagreeable. My opposition to the death penalty goes beyond the issue equal application. About ten years ago, while researching proposed legislation that would have adopted the death penalty in the Virgin Islands, I was somewhat shocked to discover that the death penalty has never been shown to deter crime! As such, if it is often unfairly applied and doesn't actually serve it's intended purpose on top of that, I am inclined not to support it.

I don't believe in giving a free pass to those who commit heinious crimes, and I favor long sentences for such persons. I do wish, however, that as a society we would pay more attention to addressing the root causes of criminality and violence. Although I haven't done any detailed research on this lately, I am fairly certain that the vast majority of persons convicted of violent crimes were both unemployed and lacking in education. I strongly believe that addressing the inequality of educational and economic opportunity will go a long way towards addressing the root causes of crime in our nation.

 

[Russ Chewning]

I am making a general response, as I have some work to do right now and need to get to it.

1. I am a contractor providing technical services in the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, Iraq. No, it isn't fixing PCs. It's maintaining a complex audio/visual setup with a very specialized screen system. It's the type of big video walls you see on TV behind the news anchors. I was in the Army for 9 years prior to becoming a contractor. I don't usually go into detail about what I do because there are a lot of rabid anti-Bushites out there who will use this information to attack me. Note: The 19 mortar shells launched into the Embassy compound yesterday do not care whether I am civilian or military.

2. My "kill em all" statement was directed at violent crimes, which I believe everyone is FULLY aware of. In my mind, and those of MANY others, death is an acceptable punishment for many crimes, such as child rape, murder, etc.. To the person who offered up that the death penalty is not much of a deterrent, you're right. Sitting on death row for 30 years, then MAYBE actually getting killed before your state bans the death penalty, is not much of a deterrent. Once found guilty, execute them within a month. THAT's a deterrent.

3. To the person who mentioned getting your foot cut off for crossing the yellow line, I'm not even going to respond. You're not interested in serious intellectual debate. Hyperbole seems to be your friend.

4. To JoeyA. You are completely correct. Our soldiers do deserve distinction over people such as myself, because they do not have the choice of being here or not. I have corrected those who have referred to me as a soldier, but I do not try to make a big deal about my job because of the reasons stated in paragraph 1. It's not that I am not completely proud of my contribution, it's just that people on here like hippiepool will attack me.

You referred to me as a "donkey".. Hopefully that was a joke. If I am correct, you are the person always woofing at road players to come to Lousiana, correct? I was planning on finding a regional tournament to attend over that way during the time of Mardi Gras when I get back from Iraq and take a year off. Hopefully my controversial views are not enough for you to dislike me just on principal.

There's a lot of commie pinkos on here, man.. There's a lot of people that are fully convinced that the earth is 6,000 years old. I vehemently disagree with them, but that doesn't mean we can't play pool together... It just means we probably need to keep politics and religion completely away from the conversation, and just WOOF, baby!

Russ

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Hey Joey,

I like you too, and I am always pleased to encounter someone with whom I can disagree without being disagreeable. My opposition to the death penalty goes beyond the issue equal application. About ten years ago, while researching proposed legislation that would have adopted the death penalty in the Virgin Islands, I was somewhat shocked to discover that the death penalty has never been shown to deter crime! As such, if it is often unfairly applied and doesn't actually serve it's intended purpose on top of that, I am inclined not to support it.

I don't believe in giving a free pass to those who commit heinious crimes, and I favor long sentences for such persons. I do wish, however, that as a society we would pay more attention to addressing the root causes of criminality and violence. Although I haven't done any detailed research on this lately, I am fairly certain that the vast majority of persons convicted of violent crimes were both unemployed and lacking in education. I strongly believe that addressing the inequality of educational and economic opportunity will go a long way towards addressing the root causes of crime in our nation.

If you guys get it along for a long while and decide to tie the knot, don't forget to invite me ok?

 

[PROG8R]

it's just that people on here like hippiepool will attack me.

Hopefully my controversial views are not enough for you to dislike me just on principal.

but that doesn't mean we can't play pool together... It just means we probably need to keep politics and religion completely away from the conversation, and just WOOF, baby!

Russ

I kind of disagree, because I do not ever want to meet that guy because I am afraid of what I might end up happing that night that would change the course of my life forever before the night was out.

 

[VIProfessor]

To the person who offered up that the death penalty is not much of a deterrent, you're right. Sitting on death row for 30 years, then MAYBE actually getting killed before your state bans the death penalty, is not much of a deterrent. Once found guilty, execute them within a month. THAT's a deterrent.

I submit, Russ, that your statement does not reflect an understanding of the mentality of a lot of the youngbloods out on the street. It is important to understand that death is not a huge deterrent to many of the "gangsters" out there. Many who are in that life don't expect to see the age of 30 anyway, and they know that the odds of getting knocked off on the streets are incalculably higher than being executed under any capital punishment scenario, outside of death squads, that I can imagine. If the prospect of violent death on the streets does not deter them, how do we expect that the threat of the electric chair will?

Further, statistics clearly demonstrate that the majority of murders are committed in the heat of the moment without a great deal of premeditation. As such, the calculus that you imagine, in which some one weighs the benefits of a murder against the possible penalty of death, just doesn't enter into the equation in most situations.

I believe that in considering these questions, we must take a moment to think about what type of society we want the United States to become. If convicted criminals are summarily executed without opportunity for appeal, it would constitute the beginning of the end for the system of justice that is and has been at the cornerstone of our democratic society. Doesn't the number of wrongfully convicted criminals give you any reason for pause? Doesn't the inequality of application concern you in the least?

The greatest danger posed by terrorism and violent crime is that in the effort to combat these ills, it is all to easy to take steps (such as the Patriot Act) that erode the very foundations of the society and the values that make it special. While we're at it, why not eliminate the Fourth Amendment? After all, why does a law-abiding citizen need to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure? If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide, right? We must never forget that this is the type of dynamic through which otherwise sensible people gave power to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco! It is a terrible irony to see American lives being sacrificed in the name of "freedom and democracy" abroad, only to see those principles being eroded at home.

Edit: I find this exchange interesting, and would love to continue it (assuming it can be done in a civil manner). As such, I will start a thread in the non-pool forum so we can debate to our heart's delight without distracting others from what we are here for--to talk pool!

 

[JoeyA]

I am making a general response, as I have some work to do right now and need to get to it.

1. I am a contractor providing technical services in the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, Iraq. No, it isn't fixing PCs. It's maintaining a complex audio/visual setup with a very specialized screen system. It's the type of big video walls you see on TV behind the news anchors. I was in the Army for 9 years prior to becoming a contractor. I don't usually go into detail about what I do because there are a lot of rabid anti-Bushites out there who will use this information to attack me. Note: The 19 mortar shells launched into the Embassy compound yesterday do not care whether I am civilian or military.

2. My "kill em all" statement was directed at violent crimes, which I believe everyone is FULLY aware of. In my mind, and those of MANY others, death is an acceptable punishment for many crimes, such as child rape, murder, etc.. To the person who offered up that the death penalty is not much of a deterrent, you're right. Sitting on death row for 30 years, then MAYBE actually getting killed before your state bans the death penalty, is not much of a deterrent. Once found guilty, execute them within a month. THAT's a deterrent.

3. To the person who mentioned getting your foot cut off for crossing the yellow line, I'm not even going to respond. You're not interested in serious intellectual debate. Hyperbole seems to be your friend.

4. To JoeyA. You are completely correct. Our soldiers do deserve distinction over people such as myself, because they do not have the choice of being here or not. I have corrected those who have referred to me as a soldier, but I do not try to make a big deal about my job because of the reasons stated in paragraph 1. It's not that I am not completely proud of my contribution, it's just that people on here like hippiepool will attack me.

You referred to me as a "donkey".. Hopefully that was a joke. If I am correct, you are the person always woofing at road players to come to Lousiana, correct? I was planning on finding a regional tournament to attend over that way during the time of Mardi Gras when I get back from Iraq and take a year off. Hopefully my controversial views are not enough for you to dislike me just on principal.

There's a lot of commie pinkos on here, man.. There's a lot of people that are fully convinced that the earth is 6,000 years old. I vehemently disagree with them, but that doesn't mean we can't play pool together... It just means we probably need to keep politics and religion completely away from the conversation, and just WOOF, baby!

Russ

I was referring to you as a "donkey": As in the game, "Pin the tail on the Donkey" that children often play. You are outspoken and fixed in your way of thinking, sometimes rub people the wrong way but I see a guy who I could play pool with, have a drink with and get along with just fine. Everything you say isn't my cup of tea but overall, I find you quite tolerable. I like a man who stands on his own two feet without looking needing a team of yes men to tell him he is saying and doing the right thing.

It seems that sometimes when people on this forum are looking to escape's life's curses, they look for someone to pin the tail on the donkey. I try not to but I couldn't figure how I got to opening up about the death penalty and such so I was looking for that donkey to "Pin the Tail on".

Thanks for making that distinction between yourself and our current soldiers and thank you for serving your country for those MANY years.

I have never heard you claim to be a soldier nor even insuate that and always thought that you did claim to be a worker in Iraq.
I thought that since others were under the wrong impression you might clear that up and you did. THANKS!

Russ, you just keep making the bucks over there and don't pay attention to the GW bashers. They've got a right to their opinions too. You're EARNING your money and I know it.

Stay with the forum and keep your database up to date. JoeyA is playing so bad right now that he is thinking about quiting.

Bring some of that EARNED money back to the states to do a little gambling with. Your pool room will be the envy of all the forum members and will probably receive requests to test out the table until you return.

We have a great tournament every couple of months now at Buffalo Billiard and I always invite road players to New Orleans because it is a great town for gambling and for the most part, road players leave with more than what they came with. We just like the action and every now and then we get a chance to sink our teeth in a small piglet from time to time and that keeps us going.
JoeyA

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

I'm for the Death Penalty ....

About ten years ago, while researching proposed legislation that would have adopted the death penalty in the Virgin Islands, I was somewhat shocked to discover that the death penalty has never been shown to deter crime!

It may not deter the next guy, but it certainly deters the guy who gets the axe, and that is all that matters to me ... He, or she, will not be committing anymore horrible crimes ... It is called "capitol punishment" for just that reason ...

 

[MFB]

I would of done a Red Bull to get 'me' home.

I woulda done (2) Red Bulls. I love that stuff.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

The laws and punishments in the middle east are even more harsh, yet crime is still prevalent and at it's normal increasing pace. not to mention that the victims themselves are even persecuted and punished. now that's a detterent logic or even below human comprehension.

 

[bsmutz]

I see your point, but it is one thing to party a bit much and quite another to rob, steal and assault people. I have no sympathy for the latter if they end up imprisoned or in a morgue.

You and I see the difference, but if some here are to be believed, it's all the same to them. A criminal act is a criminal act. I caught my 8 year old granddaughter going through my wife's purse last night. She immediately jerked away and pretended to be dancing around the dining room. When I confronted her, she lied and said she was touching the things around the purse. She will be punished as she has been reprimanded many times for getting into things that don't belong to her.
Now I realize that her mother has done a horrible job of raising her. I'm hoping that our guidance will help her develop morals that will keep her out of trouble later in life. If we hadn't intervened in her life (or even if we had) and down the road she fell in with some want to be gangster type that was out late at night robbing someone that fell asleep in their car and got killed, it would be devastating to me as well as the rest of her family. I would have to say, well, she deserved it. It was her choice. But I would feel guilty, too. I would wonder if there wasn't something I could have done or said that might have made a difference.
Her older brother (15) is already acting out. He lights school & apartment fires and steals bicycles. I don't want him around the younger kids and don't feel like there's much I can do to help him. I do feel guilty that I didn't do more to be an influence in his life when he was younger, but I lived too far away and didn't feel comfortable trying to take him away from his mother. It was only after I saw what he was going to be like that I was able to make the decision to take the younger two away from her. I also feel guilty about their mother, my daughter. I tried to pass on my ethics and morality, but it just didn't take. I should have tried harder and been less selfish about my own life and how I wanted to live it.

The younger boy was a real piece of work when he first came to live with us. After a few months of really hard work (first trying to figure out what was really wrong with him and what we needed to do to fix it, then applying that knowledge), he has shown a ton of improvement. We have gone from thinking that the best thing for him was to make him a ward of the state, to thinking that we just may be able to pull him out. It's almost enough to make you cry when you hear him laughing and being happy when all he wanted to do was kill everyone a couple of months ago. He even helped a kid at school the other day that others were picking on. He was so proud the other day when grandma told him he wasn't crazy like his mother said. 90% of both kids' problems seem to stem from bad parenting and apathy on the mother's part.

Sure there are plenty of conscience-less people out there hurting and robbing people, but aren't there also plenty of criminals that could use a little love and help getting their lives turned around? I'll grant you that there are individuals and organizations that do this type of work, but it just seems to me that we don't make the necessary effort as a society to head off criminal activity before it takes place. It seems that most of our efforts are aimed at either catching or punishing, after the decision to commit has already been made.

 

[PoolBum]

I submit, Russ, that your statement does not reflect an understanding of the mentality of a lot of the youngbloods out on the street. It is important to understand that death is not a huge deterrent to many of the "gangsters" out there. Many who are in that life don't expect to see the age of 30 anyway, and they know that the odds of getting knocked off on the streets are incalculably higher than being executed under any capital punishment scenario, outside of death squads, that I can imagine. If the prospect of violent death on the streets does not deter them, how do we expect that the threat of the electric chair will?

Further, statistics clearly demonstrate that the majority of murders are committed in the heat of the moment without a great deal of premeditation. As such, the calculus that you imagine, in which some one weighs the benefits of a murder against the possible penalty of death, just doesn't enter into the equation in most situations.

I believe that in considering these questions, we must take a moment to think about what type of society we want the United States to become. If convicted criminals are summarily executed without opportunity for appeal, it would constitute the beginning of the end for the system of justice that is and has been at the cornerstone of our democratic society. Doesn't the number of wrongfully convicted criminals give you any reason for pause? Doesn't the inequality of application concern you in the least?

The greatest danger posed by terrorism and violent crime is that in the effort to combat these ills, it is all to easy to take steps (such as the Patriot Act) that erode the very foundations of the society and the values that make it special. While we're at it, why not eliminate the Fourth Amendment? After all, why does a law-abiding citizen need to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure? If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide, right? We must never forget that this is the type of dynamic through which otherwise sensible people gave power to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco! It is a terrible irony to see American lives being sacrificed in the name of "freedom and democracy" abroad, only to see those principles being eroded at home.

Edit: I find this exchange interesting, and would love to continue it (assuming it can be done in a civil manner). As such, I will start a thread in the non-pool forum so we can debate to our heart's delight without distracting others from what we are here for--to talk pool!

I have been holding my breath over this debate since I don't usually like to post on political topics in a pool forum. But I have to say that I am in near complete agreement with VIProfessor in this matter. I have had this debate many times with colleagues in the past who overestimate the deterrent effects of harsher criminal laws, including capital punishment.

I think it is a naive misunderstanding of the mindset of the majority of "youngbloods out on the street" as VIProfessor aptly put it (as opposed to, say, white collar criminals--a very important distinction in this context), to think that anything like a rational weighing of the pros and cons of their behavior in terms of risk versus reward, potential gain versus potential punishment, even enters the picture. To view the matter this way strikes me as being severely out of touch with the reality of life for some people.

VIProfessor is right again when he says that we need to think about what sort of society we want the United States to become. These sorts of complicated socio-economic/political issues are never so black-and-white or so simple as to admit of a "kill the criminals and that will stop them from committing crimes" sort of approach.

"Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful." -Nietzsche